Heritage railways that will probably be still running in 25 - 30 years time

[Harvey B]

Yes I’ve felt that for a long time.
I’ve often thought that it might be interesting to start a thread on the subject of which preserved lines might be left in 25/30 years time? But there’s actually no telling.
It depends on who’s involved, how well it’s run as a business, and so many other factors...
I don’t think any of us could have predicted how well the industry is doing now 25 years ago?

The large, well run and commercially astute ones and that will be about it! I am thinking NYMR/SVR/Bluebelle/GCR/Paignton & Dartmouth

A move to more diesel based traction might save a few more as will finding a USP or have some draw other than the train you might survive but I fear/expect many will go pop as the volunteers die off and cash becomes harder to find.

Done @Cowley .
Also @DarloRich in addition to what you said I'd also add the Keighley and Worth Valley to that list too and maybe the embsay and bolton abbey depending on if they expand to skipton

 

[DarloRich]

Done @Cowley .
Also @DarloRich in addition to what you said I'd also add the Keighley and Worth Valley to that list too and maybe the embsay and bolton abbey depending on if they expand to skipton

I dont think so! KVR maybe if they hammer the Bronte angle and get non puffer buffers in.

Embasy and Bolton.............................................

 

[Harvey B]

I dont think so! KVR maybe if they hammer the Bronte angle and get non puffer buffers in.

Embasy and Bolton.............................................

I guess thats a no for embsay and bolton

 

[DarloRich]

I guess thats a no for embsay and bolton

What is the unique selling point for the Embassy and Bolton? What is going to make people visit and pay enough to employ people to run the railway once the volunteers die off?

The others I mentioned are big commercial operations, commercially aware, used for serious filming or have something other than trains to get people in. Even then they will be impacted by a lack of volunteers but will have more chance of finding a way out of the problem.

 

[Journeyman]

I think it's become abundantly clear over the last few years that railways need to focus on far more than just the narrow enthusiast market to survive. The ones that do well will be the ones able to offer a good value-for-money experience that can draw in people who otherwise would have no interest in railways at all. You only need to look at what railways have done to make money recently to see that. The profitable stuff is...

• The premium dining market. Even on railways not long enough for full meals, there's quite a lot to be made out of afternoon teas.
• Kids/family events - Thomas is the obvious one, but there's plenty of others.
• Providing things to do beyond the train ride, such as links to other local tourist attractions
• Gala events, if you can offer a sufficiently good USP. A lot of railways bring in a couple of guest locos but fail to recoup the costs.

So...I'd say I'd expect a lot of the early heritage railways, that are now well-established with a good range of stock, stations with decent facilities, a decent length and good scenery, will have a good future.

The tiny ones, which were getting discussed on the thread that spawned this discussion, who only have a couple of industrial shunters and manky Mark 2s, and run around the back of an industrial estate somewhere, will really struggle unless they miraculously expand and offer something better.

 

[krus_aragon]

So...I'd say I'd expect a lot of the early heritage railways, that are now well-established with a good range of stock, stations with decent facilities, a decent length and good scenery, will have a good future.

Yes. I'd be astonished if the Ffestiniog weren't still running in 25 years time.

On the other hand, while it's been going just as long, I wouldn't put the Talyllyn in the "absolutely no way it'll close" category. Not that I'm sat here waiting for it to fail, it's just that it's in a slightly more obscure location.

 

[underbank]

They need to make themselves more attractive for volunteering. Some are still insisting on the cleaner>fireman>driver training system taking several years - just because that's how it used to be done - a quicker way is essential when drivers are in short supply. Far too many are also "closed shops" where volunteers are tolerated rather than embraced, with all the "old hands" sticking to their little cliques.

 

[Calthrop]

Yes. I'd be astonished if the Ffestiniog weren't still running in 25 years time.

These are my sentiments about the Ffestiniog itself; tend to feel less sanguine about its Welsh Highland adjunct -- sadly, maybe just too big / lengthy / ambitious to succeed long-term. Being a bit cold-blooded about it, "that's a place where we've been before"; only, first time round, the WHR contributed toward the Ffestiniog's downfall too.

 

[Journeyman]

They need to make themselves more attractive for volunteering. Some are still insisting on the cleaner>fireman>driver training system taking several years - just because that's how it used to be done - a quicker way is essential when drivers are in short supply. Far too many are also "closed shops" where volunteers are tolerated rather than embraced, with all the "old hands" sticking to their little cliques.

Yeah, there's certainly a dysfunctional environment in some places which will put people off. I wonder if the answer to the volunteer supply problem is for railways to change their business model, and take on more paid staff. It's difficult to do because a lot of them shut over the winter and it obviously massively increases running costs, but it might become necessary in time, especially as the increasingly strict safety and regulatory environment changes old habits.

 

[RichJF]

I reckon heritage lines that are connected to or share infrastructure with already extent railways would have a good case of remaining open in the next 25-30 years.

The Bluebell (walking distance to me) is great and often has trips/locos from the national network. However they HAVE to adapt and run other things other than just steam. You have to diversify to survive.

 

[Journeyman]

I reckon heritage lines that are connected to or share infrastructure with already extent railways would have a good case of remaining open in the next 25-30 years.

The Bluebell (walking distance to me) is great and often has trips/locos from the national network. However they HAVE to adapt and run other things other than just steam. You have to diversify to survive.

I think we've seen the beginning of the end of the Bluebell's steam-only policy, but diesels are only ever going to play a minority role in heritage railway operation, because they only appeal to a small niche of enthusiasts. The normals want Ye Golden Olde Age of Steam - that's what brings in the money.

 

[Edders23]

I personally think that the great bulk will survive because although there is an issue for some with attracting volunteers at the end of the day they are important tourist attractions and councils will want to keep that so will help out

I think some have evolved into businesses anyway and if you look at the websites are geared up to tourism not the enthusiast and as such will probably move to having many jobs covered by paid staff with volunteers assisting

what may be an issue is the costs of maintaining track,signalling and stock to modern standards as engineering costs are becoming expensive so in 25 years time there will not be so many working locomotives and DMU's

In 25 to 30 years time there will still be a lot of people drawn to the olde world of steam and diesel and I can't see there not being a large customer base so whilst a few of the smaller ones might disappear such as Lamport or Lincolnshire wolds the majority will still be here in 30 years time

After all how many generations of toddlers have grown up with the excitement of seeing Thomas and no doubt in 30 years time there will be loads of parents taking their kids to the same things they were taken to.

 

[Trainfan344]

North Norfolk would be my vote to be open still

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I think we've seen the beginning of the end of the Bluebell's steam-only policy, but diesels are only ever going to play a minority role in heritage railway operation, because they only appeal to a small niche of enthusiasts. The normals want Ye Golden Olde Age of Steam - that's what brings in the money.

I can just imagine seeing a Pacer or a Sprinter on the Bluebell Railway, at least the destination blinds will have at least one of their destinations on it already.

 

[Vespa]

East Lancashire Railway seems to have a solid foundation, I believe they also offer commuter service through the week with local residents discount.

Not sure if its still going, been a while since I've been.

 

[geoffk]

I don't know how profitable it is but some heritage lines offer storage space to the TOCs for new or withdrawn stock (e.g. the mid-Norfolk), or testing of new trains. "The Great Central Railway is the perfect venue for your rail industry testing and training needs. Our facilities – unrivalled on any other private railway in the UK are often available at short notice, cutting the red tape and the cost of getting access to the national network". So the GC is promoting what they offer, I believe the SVR did the same, but only the longer lines would be likely to offer this. Someone above mentioned filming and several railways other than the obvious ones such as the KWVR and NYMR have offered their services.

 

[eldomtom2]

How profitable is filming really though? It's not exactly an especially common occurrence, so using it as a key funding source would seem rather unwise...

 

[geoffk]

How profitable is filming really though? It's not exactly an especially common occurrence, so using it as a key funding source would seem rather unwise...

Not a key funding source, but a useful additional source of income.

 

[Journeyman]

How profitable is filming really though? It's not exactly an especially common occurrence, so using it as a key funding source would seem rather unwise...

You can make quite a lot of cash out of it, but it does tend to demand quite a lot in terms of volunteer labour, especially because it'll need locos fired up and crewed specially. It may, therefore, in some cases be more hassle than it's worth.

 

[The Lad]

ELR have occasionally run an emergency service but I wouldn't call it commuter, don't tell Rossendale BC though!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Bit harsh on the KWVR who are turning themselves into a commercially minded operation and have made great strides that way with purchase of new cafe and I believe dining trains are being brought back. Main threat to them will be urbanisation of the worth valley.

I think most of the major ones will remain in some way or another. Some may move towards living museums rather than fully fledged railways.

Agree the trick is to attract families for most of the year, not enthusiasts. Enthusiasts will come regardless.

 

[yoyothehobo]

just checking the KWVR for a trip with a friend and their family this weekend and it has enough that it is more than just a train ride, plus you have Haworth with its attractions which make it a more attractive option.

I also saw they have a real ale carriage and some diesel and ale weekends coming up, which sounds certainly great, especially as i can get there by train anyway!

This sort of diversification is vital.

To echo sentiments up the thread, i live in Leeds and have travelled to the NYMR and the KWVR (not the ELR as i used to be a local to it anyway), however I have never considered going out of my way to get to Middleton Railway or the Embsay railway and I have been to Bolton Abbey a lot of times!

Scale is important and different things to do, definitely.

One other thing added to filming is that the fans of certain things that are drawn to the railway, how many railway children fans have been to the KWVR and how many Harry Potter fans have been to "Hogsmeade" on the NYMR, not to mention Heartbeat.

 

[alexl92]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I do believe the KWVR will still be around in 25 years, no question.
It's one of very few examples of a complete original line (in fact, the extension of the run-around loop at Oxenhope means it's actually slightly longer than it's ever been). Its location and intact historical buildings/stations mean that from an enthusiasts' perspective it can be an authentic L&Y, LMS or BR-era branch, it has an interesting collection of locos and stock and puts on good quality events that offer variation and interest.

From a non-enthusiast perspective:

• It has a mainline connection, making it easier for the general public to visit from afar. Not just a connection either - it shares Keighley's mainline station.
  
• As a the filming location of The Railway Children, people love to vist to see Oakworth Station, and they ususally have either 5775 or the L&Y tender loco in their Railway Children guise for tourists too. There's also a walkers trail along the line linking locations in the film I believe. They may not be able to trade on this so much in the future as the film is 50 years old this year, but it is still a part of the attraction.
  
• Haworth is, as has been mentioned, the home of the Bronte sisters and tourism in the area trades on that.
  
• The railway is great at running non-enthusiast events. They do dinosaur, superhero, tv character events as well as being a really central part of the Howarth 1940s weekend.
• Local tourism benefits hugely from the railway - how many railway visitors would have even heard of Oxenhope if the railway didn't terminate there? Nobody goes to Keighley for the scenery. It's in the interest of everyone in the Worth Valley and local businesses to keep the line open.
• Its unique collection of vintage carriages and proximity to Leeds/Bradford makes it an attractive prospect for filming contracts.

In addition, every station offers something to visitors, enthusiast or otherwise:

• Keighley: Authentic mainline steam-era station, connection to national network for visitors from Leeds, Bradford, Skipton, even Carlisle. There is the Cliffe Castle Museum too, tho it's not really close to the station.
  
• Ingrow: Vintage Carriages Trust museum, Ingrow Loco museum
• Damems: Smallest full-size railway station in England (Britain?)
• Oakworth: Famous as the star of The Railway Children.
• Haworth: Bronte sisters, Bronte Parsonage Museum, the old high street, seasonal/1940s events; station shop
  
• Oakworth: Loco shed museum; station shop

There aren't many railways that can offer such a genuine range of attractions condensed into 5 miles of line, making it possible to do 2 or 3 in a single day trip.

By comparison, the Embsay & Bolton Abbey Railway does have huge potential but currently offers very little aside from a 20 minute ride each way behind a steam locomotive. Neither station is particularly near anything else - Bolton Abbey Station is only a 5 minute drive from the priory but a 35-minute walk, nearly half of which is down the side of the A59 with no pavement. Both stations lack real attraction too - at embsay there is a shop, cafe and minature railway but nothing else, whilst Bolton Abbey station doesn't appear to have much at all at present. Without serious investment, such as a museum or at least loco display shed (similar to Oxenhope) and an extension into Skipton I can see that line folding in the next 25 years because people simply won't drive for an hour from Leeds for example for two 20 minute journeys if there's barely anything else to do there.

Before anyone gets mad at me like the last time I said similar, please understand that I really want the E&BASR to be succesful. I have lots of happy memories of visiting as a kid, but having visited around 18 months ago as part of a day trip to Bolton Abbey, I was really disappointed; there was nothing to encourage me to go back for specially for the railway and I certainly couldn't spend a day there.

 

[alexl92]

just checking the KWVR for a trip with a friend and their family this weekend and it has enough that it is more than just a train ride, plus you have Haworth with its attractions which make it a more attractive option.

I also saw they have a real ale carriage and some diesel and ale weekends coming up, which sounds certainly great, especially as i can get there by train anyway!

This sort of diversification is vital.

To echo sentiments up the thread, i live in Leeds and have travelled to the NYMR and the KWVR (not the ELR as i used to be a local to it anyway), however I have never considered going out of my way to get to Middleton Railway or the Embsay railway and I have been to Bolton Abbey a lot of times!

Scale is important and different things to do, definitely.

One other thing added to filming is that the fans of certain things that are drawn to the railway, how many railway children fans have been to the KWVR and how many Harry Potter fans have been to "Hogsmeade" on the NYMR, not to mention Heartbeat.

As a fellow leodisian, I'm less than 10 minutes from Middleton but don't generally tend to go. Their galas are good and I quite like being able to wander around the museum shed but the journey is short and relatively uncomfortable owing to the 'paddy train'-style carriages.

However, the fact that

• they run a sustainable operation on such a small site, based on the niche of representing a typical industrial railway
  
• without being able to attract 'star' or more typically glamorous high-profile locomotives (the biggest ever to operate on the line is Furness Railway no. 20 and their fleet is wholly industrial except for NER 1310 and the sentinel)
  
• whilst managing to keep a roughly 4 or 5-strong fleet of operational locomotives
• they appear to maintain a relatively healthy bank balance

is a credit to the people who run it and they clearly are doing something right.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

In current circumstances it seems quite possible that some lines are not going to make it through the next 25-30 weeks.

 

[Harvey B]

As a fellow leodisian, I'm less than 10 minutes from Middleton but don't generally tend to go. Their galas are good and I quite like being able to wander around the museum shed but the journey is short and relatively uncomfortable owing to the 'paddy train'-style carriages.

However, the fact that

• they run a sustainable operation on such a small site, based on the niche of representing a typical industrial railway
  
• without being able to attract 'star' or more typically glamorous high-profile locomotives (the biggest ever to operate on the line is Furness Railway no. 20 and their fleet is wholly industrial except for NER 1310 and the sentinel)
  
• whilst managing to keep a roughly 4 or 5-strong fleet of operational locomotives
• they appear to maintain a relatively healthy bank balance

is a credit to the people who run it and they clearly are doing something right.

I don't really tend to go to Middleton even though i don't live too far away either but im on the opposite end of the spectrum that thinks it won't survive the in next 25 - 30 years unless improvements are made

 

[duffield]

The Embsay & Bolton Abbey Railway is in the rather unfortunate position of perhaps needing to extend to Skipton for long term viability but being (as far as I know) unable to finance it, and it would probably bankrupt it if it attempted to do so. I guess its best hope is a very generous benefactor or bequest.
However, even with the Skipton connection it would be in direct competition with the KWVR with its numerous attractions as detailed above...

 

[E759]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I do believe the KWVR will still be around in 25 years, no question.
It's one of very few examples of a complete original line (in fact, the extension of the run-around loop at Oxenhope means it's actually slightly longer than it's ever been). Its location and intact historical buildings/stations mean that from an enthusiasts' perspective it can be an authentic L&Y, LMS or BR-era branch, it has an interesting collection of locos and stock and puts on good quality events that offer variation and interest.

From a non-enthusiast perspective:

• It has a mainline connection, making it easier for the general public to visit from afar. Not just a connection either - it shares Keighley's mainline station.
  
• As a the filming location of The Railway Children, people love to vist to see Oakworth Station, and they ususally have either 5775 or the L&Y tender loco in their Railway Children guise for tourists too. There's also a walkers trail along the line linking locations in the film I believe. They may not be able to trade on this so much in the future as the film is 50 years old this year, but it is still a part of the attraction.
  
• Haworth is, as has been mentioned, the home of the Bronte sisters and tourism in the area trades on that.
  
• The railway is great at running non-enthusiast events. They do dinosaur, superhero, tv character events as well as being a really central part of the Howarth 1940s weekend.
• Local tourism benefits hugely from the railway - how many railway visitors would have even heard of Oxenhope if the railway didn't terminate there? Nobody goes to Keighley for the scenery. It's in the interest of everyone in the Worth Valley and local businesses to keep the line open.
• Its unique collection of vintage carriages and proximity to Leeds/Bradford makes it an attractive prospect for filming contracts.

In addition, every station offers something to visitors, enthusiast or otherwise:

• Keighley: Authentic mainline steam-era station, connection to national network for visitors from Leeds, Bradford, Skipton, even Carlisle. There is the Cliffe Castle Museum too, tho it's not really close to the station.
  
• Ingrow: Vintage Carriages Trust museum, Ingrow Loco museum
• Damems: Smallest full-size railway station in England (Britain?)
• Oakworth: Famous as the star of The Railway Children.
• Haworth: Bronte sisters, Bronte Parsonage Museum, the old high street, seasonal/1940s events; station shop
  
• Oakworth: Loco shed museum; station shop

There aren't many railways that can offer such a genuine range of attractions condensed into 5 miles of line, making it possible to do 2 or 3 in a single day trip.

By comparison, the Embsay & Bolton Abbey Railway does have huge potential but currently offers very little aside from a 20 minute ride each way behind a steam locomotive. Neither station is particularly near anything else - Bolton Abbey Station is only a 5 minute drive from the priory but a 35-minute walk, nearly half of which is down the side of the A59 with no pavement. Both stations lack real attraction too - at embsay there is a shop, cafe and minature railway but nothing else, whilst Bolton Abbey station doesn't appear to have much at all at present. Without serious investment, such as a museum or at least loco display shed (similar to Oxenhope) and an extension into Skipton I can see that line folding in the next 25 years because people simply won't drive for an hour from Leeds for example for two 20 minute journeys if there's barely anything else to do there.

Before anyone gets mad at me like the last time I said similar, please understand that I really want the E&BASR to be succesful. I have lots of happy memories of visiting as a kid, but having visited around 18 months ago as part of a day trip to Bolton Abbey, I was really disappointed; there was nothing to encourage me to go back for specially for the railway and I certainly couldn't spend a day there.

The walking route to Bolton Abbey from the station doesn't use the A59 nor roads without pavements. A map of the walking route can be found online or obtained at the Railway.

Come out of Bolton Abbey station and head towards to A59.
Before the A59 turn Right.
When the road ends, continue along the track.
Keep going along the track which takes you Under the A59.
Turn left to join the footpath.
The footpath turns into a lane.
Continue to the end of the lane and turn Left (opposite the posh restaurant).
Continue past the Priory Car Park on the Left.
On the right-hand side of the road there is a pedestrian entrance through a stone wall.
Alternatively keep straight on, as there is an interesting stone wall across the road, past some Priory related buildings until the pedestrian entrance on the Right.

30 minutes walk for me.

 

[Vespa]

You can make quite a lot of cash out of it, but it does tend to demand quite a lot in terms of volunteer labour, especially because it'll need locos fired up and crewed specially. It may, therefore, in some cases be more hassle than it's worth.

I seems to remember one heritage railway (which shall be nameless) allowing its station and carriages to be used in a porn shoot, I don't know how much money they made from it, I certainly enjoyed watching it

 

[Journeyman]

I seems to remember one heritage railway (which shall be nameless) allowing its station and carriages to be used in a porn shoot, I don't know how much money they made from it, I certainly enjoyed watching it

Haha. Plenty of hot steamy action?