Hertford Loop Trains cancelled when scheduled into London Kings Cross

[Mcq]

Does anyone know why this has happened on the last 3/4 times that Moorgate services have been rescheduled into London Kings Cross?
Yes I know it says 'Shortage of Drivers' but really, don't they like London Kings Cross for some reason or is there something else?
I'm just mindful of the enormous sums spent recently on Stevenage P5, Moorgate Tunnels, London Kings Cross, not to mention the fleet of 717s - then for the scheduled to look like this - it was even worse today.

 

[alistairlees]

I had to think for a minute before I worked out what "LKX" was. Could you put the full name the first time it's referenced (this is forum etiquette) and also use the right three-letter code?

 

[Mcq]

Sorry London Kings Cross, I thought that was the right code - anyway removed it now.

 

[iphone76]

It should really read shortage of drivers available to drive a certain class of train/route. My friend works for them and is spare, but doesn't sign 717s or 700s and had Moorgate taken off their route card. (Not that that's applicable this weekend). They used to drive 313s but the company decided their depot wouldn't sign 717s or 700s.

Seems to be a recurring feature of GN /Thameslink these days. (Especially Saturdays)

Obviously the covid situation and the end of the Summer doesn't help with leave, etc. but the company have boxed themselves into a bit of a corner into who can drive what and where.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry London Kings Cross, I thought that was the right code - anyway removed it now.

The code for King's Cross is KGX We do allow the correct codes to be used, but we do ask that the full names are used in the first instance. Thanks

 

[Sheps7755]

Moorgates shut on quite a few weekends and weekends seem to be when staff shortages are at the peak.
This is summer leave time and a lot of people want weekends off.

As alluded to above route knowledge has changed significantly so one depots spare men can't cover other routes or traction.

Also pretty much every driver would rather go to King's Cross than use the Ncl.

 

[trek]

I suspect it will be due to a driver shortage and their working agreement means each driver cannot drive into Moorgate more than 2/3 times (can't remember which) per shift

 

[jon0844]

I suspect it will be due to a driver shortage and their working agreement means each driver cannot drive into Moorgate more than 2/3 times (can't remember which) per shift

Was that because of the pollution? I assume things are a lot better now, what with the cleaning of the tunnels and the new rolling stock?

 

[philjo]

A lot of the Cambridge to Kings Cross stoppers and Cambridge to Brighton Thameslink services were also cancelled today. At some points during the 3 day consecutive departures from Cambridge branch stations were cancelled, leaving at best 1 hourly stopping service running. So today’s problems were not just on the Hertford loop.

 

[Mcq]

As I thought there has to be more to this than Saturdays and Kings Cross.
This is a sizable failure to meet a large number of scheduled services, repeated over several weeks - given that almost certainly the Welwyn services were clobbered too.
As the Transport Secretary is from that neck of the woods maybe he'll show some concern?

 

[jon0844]

Isn't it down to the work schedules, with Saturday shifts being pretty long compared to Sunday so RDW is preferable on a Sunday instead of Saturday? I'm told they made them quite long so as to reduce the number of drivers needed, thus giving more days off.

No doubt all agreed by the union, so not sure what Grant would or could say?

 

[philjo]

I see some of the Cambridge to Kings Cross stoppers also terminated at Welwyn Garden City or Potters Bar today.
There was a 90 minute gap between northbound trains to Peterborough this evening.
I was intending to travel this afternoon but noticed that 4 out of 5 possible return services were cancelled late afternoon so changed my plans.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Hitchin between 0200 and 0159 on 04/09/2021

Train information at Hitchin between 0200 and 0159 on 04/09/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Mcq]

Ok - so may be I'm missing something here, but these 'possessions'? of the Moorgate tunnels have been scheduled for weeks and the failed routes were all scheduled - not an emergency or a failure.
So why were so many routes scheduled, and failed, when all of this was known months ago, as I'm assuming that any union 'agreements' haven't suddenly arisen?
Anyone know how many failed services today - 20?
Good enough?
Yes Grant Shapps should have an interest.

 

[jon0844]

I think the Moorgate trains being diverted will be totally unrelated. That's part of planned engineering work.

[off topic]I know it's about signal upgrades, but does anyone know if they're also doing anything regarding phone coverage as a long time ago this was mentioned somewhere (to finally give coverage on the trains all the way into Moorgate) but it seems to have gone quiet. Thing is, when EE put in coverage in the HS1 tunnels, they did so without (TTBOMK) it being advertised in advance.[/off topic]

 

[choochoochoo]

Does anyone know why this has happened on the last 3/4 times that Moorgate services have been rescheduled into London Kings Cross?
Yes I know it says 'Shortage of Drivers' but really, don't they like London Kings Cross for some reason or is there something else?
I'm just mindful of the enormous sums spent recently on Stevenage P5, Moorgate Tunnels, London Kings Cross, not to mention the fleet of 717s - then for the scheduled to look like this - it was even worse today.
View attachment 102195

It was awful service today. The problem is when one driver's turn/shift is uncovered it affects other driver's turns/shifts as there is nobody to relieve them. This means services have to end early and be moved out of the way into depot/sidings to get those trains out of the way.

It should really read shortage of drivers available to drive a certain class of train/route. My friend works for them and is spare, but doesn't sign 717s or 700s and had Moorgate taken off their route card. (Not that that's applicable this weekend). They used to drive 313s but the company decided their depot wouldn't sign 717s or 700s.

Seems to be a recurring feature of GN /Thameslink these days. (Especially Saturdays)

Obviously the covid situation and the end of the Summer doesn't help with leave, etc. but the company have boxed themselves into a bit of a corner into who can drive what and where.

Also think the removal of traction/routes from various depots seems a huge oversight. Particularly where some depots sign 700s but not 717s and vice versa. They're almost the same train and conversion course is a couple of days including handling !! The case in point mentioned above where there are drivers sitting spare but can't drive the train or route.

Still can't work out why any company would shoot themselves in the foot like this ? Were they trying to save on giving out traction refresh / route refresh days because there was not enough actual timetabled work such that each depot could do all the routes and traction in normal diagrams for drivers to maintain their competency?

 

[iphone76]

I guess on paper it is very efficient to carve routes and traction between different depots, with relieving points en route, however, the model needs to be well resourced with drivers and spares available to cover jobs and at places where these changeovers happen.

Covid has had a huge impact, but the service has been poor like this for years. I feel sorry for the staff on the ground who are doing their best, but are trying to manage a railway with one hand tied behind their back. (Or indeed both hands).

 

[172007]

This drivers not signing certain traction and routes when logically it would make sense and on a weekly basis would prevent a few cancellations happens everywhere I guess. There is no incentive to train crew for cross cover as it works out cheaper to cancel trains.

Some of it is Union reps protecting their depots workers by giving them more overtime by blocking cross cover. Example would be say Worcester signing 323's so they can do New St to Bromsgrove if need be. New St would never give up work unless there was a really good deal. The staff benefit and the travelling public suffers.

 

[Ianno87]

I suspect it will be due to a driver shortage and their working agreement means each driver cannot drive into Moorgate more than 2/3 times (can't remember which) per shift

Was that because of the pollution? I assume things are a lot better now, what with the cleaning of the tunnels and the new rolling stock?

Possibly to do with limiting the amount of tunnel driving? I seem to recall LU have similar limits.

 

[bramling]

It was awful service today. The problem is when one driver's turn/shift is uncovered it affects other driver's turns/shifts as there is nobody to relieve them. This means services have to end early and be moved out of the way into depot/sidings to get those trains out of the way.



Also think the removal of traction/routes from various depots seems a huge oversight. Particularly where some depots sign 700s but not 717s and vice versa. They're almost the same train and conversion course is a couple of days including handling !! The case in point mentioned above where there are drivers sitting spare but can't drive the train or route.

Still can't work out why any company would shoot themselves in the foot like this ? Were they trying to save on giving out traction refresh / route refresh days because there was not enough actual timetabled work such that each depot could do all the routes and traction in normal diagrams for drivers to maintain their competency?

The whole setup on the GN side seems very messy. Hitchin drivers in particular seem to spend a lot of time travelling pass, which is fine when things are running well, but clearly quickly causes issues during disruption. I know Hitchin always had this to some extent (no doubt a function of the depot existing to cater for Letchworth sidings), but it seems to have exploded since 2018.

With the amount of peak services missing, they do still seem to be quite short.

Possibly to do with limiting the amount of tunnel driving? I seem to recall LU have similar limits.

Very little on LU. The only line with a current agreement is the Bakerloo, where it's something like no more than three round trips in the tunnel section without a break, and no more than 5 and a half in the entire duty. This is a *lot* more tunnel time than a Moorgate and back!

The Vic Line also had something, but I think that was more to do with lack of cab air conditioning on the old trains, and is thus no longer an issue.

It does seem to be a case of tail wagging the dog at GTR, as much as drivers might not like working to Moorgate, it's kind of part and parcel of the job.

 

[Hadders]

As I thought there has to be more to this than Saturdays and Kings Cross.
This is a sizable failure to meet a large number of scheduled services, repeated over several weeks - given that almost certainly the Welwyn services were clobbered too.
As the Transport Secretary is from that neck of the woods maybe he'll show some concern?

Don't hold your breath. This sort of thing has been going on for years, there's a very lengthy thread from a few years ago:

Great Northern Weekend Cancellations

Every Saturday and Sunday for months now a handful (or more) of GN trains are being cancelled due to driver shortages. Tonight the last 'fast' to Cambridge fell victim. They held the preceding 'all'-shacks (presumably as the one an hour before was also cancelled due to no driver) which at...

www.railforums.co.uk

Apparently GTR inherited insufficient drivers from First Capital Connect when they took over the franchise, there was a total meltdown when the 2018 timetable was introduced, due to insufficient drivers despite the 'largest ever driver recruitment programme in the history of the railway'.

Things did improve and while GTR are not perfect they have been a pretty competent operator (at least on the GN side) in recent years. Of course we now have covid and all the staff absence that brings.....

Don't expect Shapps to do anything. He's quite happy to see contactless introduced at his local stations, even though at weekends it is far more expensive than using a paper ticket.

 

[jon0844]

They're actively training drivers now, as I know a couple, and I know Covid impacted training and route learning.

 

[choochoochoo]

This drivers not signing certain traction and routes when logically it would make sense and on a weekly basis would prevent a few cancellations happens everywhere I guess. There is no incentive to train crew for cross cover as it works out cheaper to cancel trains.

Some of it is Union reps protecting their depots workers by giving them more overtime by blocking cross cover. Example would be say Worcester signing 323's so they can do New St to Bromsgrove if need be. New St would never give up work unless there was a really good deal. The staff benefit and the travelling public suffers.

I'd understand the whole protecting work thing if Driver's hadn't previously had those routes/traction on their cards. But to completely wipe out and waste cumulatively years of training and knowledge for hundreds of drivers just seems like a very strange move to make.

And if it was to protect overtime, it's not really worked. Those depots who sign more than one traction have better overtime pickings of other depot work compared to those who are hamstrung by only signing one type.

Crazy Decision.

 

[WAB]

There have been driver shortages on the Moorgate inner suburbans since the 1990s and WAGN, and they have always been "working hard to resolve it".

 

[Snow1964]

Isn't it down to the work schedules, with Saturday shifts being pretty long compared to Sunday so RDW is preferable on a Sunday instead of Saturday? I'm told they made them quite long so as to reduce the number of drivers needed, thus giving more days off.

No doubt all agreed by the union, so not sure what Grant would or could say?

Can you define RDW please
I assume it is some local jargon, which no one has defined

 

[Brissle Girl]

Rest day working. (I don’t work on the railway, but am still very familiar with the acronym.)

 

[Snow1964]

Rest day working. (I don’t work on the railway, but am still very familiar with the acronym.)

OK thanks, seems a bit of an illogical contradiction of terms, like being off work and working at same time, never came across this in oil industry.

 

[Surreytraveller]

OK thanks, seems a bit of an illogical contradiction of terms, like being off work and working at same time, never came across this in oil industry.

Probably a bit difficult to turn up on an oil rig just to do one day's overtime

 

[172007]

OK thanks, seems a bit of an illogical contradiction of terms, like being off work and working at same time, never came across this in oil industry.

It's restday work simply because Drivers make themselves available to work on their restdays for a whole shift (restdays are equilevent weekend days to anyone else). That's how the railway relies on overtime, its not a few hours here and a few hours their albeit that does happen. Many drivers are on a 35 hr, 4 day week so it's easy to fit in an entire day.

 

[Mcq]

As the OP - can I just ask, as a non railway chap but with loads of experience in scheduling Shift and Irregular Hour Workers in another industry - what makes Kings Cross so difficult.
As I see it drivers are asked to drive from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross instead of Moorgate - so no tunnels, no other stations and less driving time.
Now dealing with 'signing routes' - sorry if that's the wrong term - I appreciate this necessity.
However the route from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross has been completely revamped for all trains into Kings Cross.
Has every driver from no matter where had to re-sign the route since the Kings Cross revamp - really?
From where I sit I'm yet to be convinced, at all, that any current driver into Moorgate isn't competent to drive into Kings Cross.
Or is this just a bit of local branch awkwardness.

 

[godfreycomplex]

As the OP - can I just ask, as a non railway chap but with loads of experience in scheduling Shift and Irregular Hour Workers in another industry - what makes Kings Cross so difficult.
As I see it drivers are asked to drive from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross instead of Moorgate - so no tunnels, no other stations and less driving time.
Now dealing with 'signing routes' - sorry if that's the wrong term - I appreciate this necessity.
However the route from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross has been completely revamped for all trains into Kings Cross.
Has every driver from no matter where had to re-sign the route since the Kings Cross revamp - really?
From where I sit I'm yet to be convinced, at all, that any current driver into Moorgate isn't competent to drive into Kings Cross.
Or is this just a bit of local branch awkwardness.

In First Capital Connect days there were only 5 driver depots. With the exception of a couple of outlying routes every driver signed all routes and traction on the route, so these problems were mitigated.

Since GTR took over the number of depots have increased, but all depots only really do one or two routes. With the increase of depots the number of drivers also increased. The area has always seen a high turnover of drivers (particularly in the London area) and, as a result, a high proportion of trainees.

As training of new routes and traction has been very difficult on account of social distancing restrictions (which have, to all intents and purposes, only been suspended in the practical sense for drivers for a matter of weeks)

There are several hundred GTR drivers who sign Kings Cross from the north and training even a small proportion of these on a new route (which is quite complicated, AIUI because of the different routings available Finsbury Park to Kings Cross takes several weeks to learn) within the space of a few weeks simply isn’t practical.

In answer to the “would the drivers have to relearn the route if it’s resignalled” question, generally the short answer is yes. To what extent and how long it would take would depend on the extent of the resignalling, but short answer, yes