Hertford Loop Trains cancelled when scheduled into London Kings Cross

[bramling]

Today is unbelievably bad. While most cancellations were known in advance, it didn't stop a (Cambridge to) Brighton train being cancelled last minute as there was no relief at Finsbury Park. The previous service (or more?) was cancelled and then the next 2 or 3. That meant a good few hours with no trains to Brighton, and people like us at St Pancras given no warning even when tracking the train (nor were there any audible warnings, just an update on the CIS that a lot of people missed).

We went to Victoria to wait an hour due to more cancellations there (and this was long after lines reopened due to the fatality at South Croydon this morning).

So looking forward to getting home later...

Utter chaos across GN today. I decided to take the railways advice and give the train a go, just a single one stop journey as part of a local walk. Station was packed, platform busier than a transitional high peak, and pretty much everything cancelled, with zero information flowing aa to what was running (additional stops on the Ely service by the looks of it). Pretty much the entire Thames link service cancelled.

So we ditched it and did something else instead. Hardly likely to entice people back. Whilst the platform was heaving, it was mainly teenager types, so not really the types likely to be Monday's commuters.

To be fair, the week does seem to have improved a bit since September. Last month on the few occasions I did travel for work purposes I don't think I had one journey where there wasnt a cancellation or delay. This wasn't too awful for me as my London journey is fortunate enough to have alternative service groups, but you really wouldn't want to be travelling from somewhere like Sandy or Knebworth at the moment, and weekends are a total no-go.

 

[choochoochoo]

I think the reason was to make a potential future transfer of the Moorgate service to TfL simpler.

But why demand that drivers lose their route and traction knowledge ? Put drivers in certain links that could get transferred to tfl by all means. And don't train new drivers that are in those links on anything else.

But why oh why take away years of knowledge and experience from all those other drivers who they could use on days like this? Could they not have waited until all the depots were fully staffed so could cover all the work.

Surely it can't be because they're too stingy on route refresh / traction refresh days.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Is it too early to predict staffing levels (obviously not specific cancellations yet) across TL/GN for tomorrow? I need to make a connection at Stevenage and wonder if I may need to make alternative arrangements, or aim for an earlier service...

 

[jon0844]

Is it too early to predict staffing levels (obviously not specific cancellations yet) across TL/GN for tomorrow? I need to make a connection at Stevenage and wonder if I may need to make alternative arrangements, or aim for an earlier service...

Sunday usually runs pretty well these days, which is partly why Saturdays are so bad.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Sunday usually runs pretty well these days, which is partly why Saturdays are so bad.

Thanks, I'll keep an eye from tomorrow morning!

 

[Surreytraveller]

But why demand that drivers lose their route and traction knowledge ? Put drivers in certain links that could get transferred to tfl by all means. And don't train new drivers that are in those links on anything else.

But why oh why take away years of knowledge and experience from all those other drivers who they could use on days like this? Could they not have waited until all the depots were fully staffed so could cover all the work.

Surely it can't be because they're too stingy on route refresh / traction refresh days.

People who make these decisions are clueless about the effect it has downstream on the day in real life

 

[choochoochoo]

As predicted, today isn't looking too bad out there.

 

[Mcq]

So it works when it's paid on overtime?

 

[choochoochoo]

So it works when it's paid on overtime?

To be fair sunday overtime isn't that much better than saturday's.

Average shift length on a sunday is 7.5 hours and saturday rest day work minimum is 8 hours plus signing on fee.

Think it's the work content on a saturday, particularly for inner drivers. It's not worth losing a rest day for.

Also saturday night is a better night to go out than sunday night !! So why volunteer an opportunity to lose out on social life ?

 

[Royston Vasey]

As predicted, today isn't looking too bad out there.

I haven't seen so much as a single delay all day on the Cambridge branch.

 

[Strat-tastic]

I found the Cambridge to Brighton ones terminating at King's Cross today.
I'd like a day at the seaside but don't have the confidence I'll get there and back seamlessly.

 

[jon0844]

I had quite the adventure yesterday, but eventually opted to go to Victoria and to Brighton that way. And back, then tube to Finsbury Park to get a train north.

 

[Mcq]

So so all in all fairly damming of the setup.
Trains run M-F 'cos that's basic hours and the contract.
Trains don't run, or are unpredictably impacted on Sat 'cos drivers don't like Hornsey and prefer a day/eve off, as it's overtime they can turn down, never mind the passengers.
Sunday, most trains do run, still Hornsey, but more people prepared to do overtime, so travellers more likely to see their scheduled train.
.
In the words of the classic expression - 'What a way to run a Railway'!
What's the solution, I don't mean reason's why not, I mean how to.
Shift pattern covering 7 days so that Sat & Sun is no longer optional?

 

[Hadders]

Yesterday was appalling on the GN side of things. Admittedly not helped by a person hit by a train at East Croydon.

The evening wasn't much better, several consecutive trains from St Pancras to Stevenage cancelled.

Not that it helps but it isn't only GTR suffering - the Victoria Line last night was a disgrace. Victoria station northbound platforms were dangerously overcrowded around 23:00 with an 8 minute schedule operating. I'm surprised the platforms weren't temporarily closed.

 

[Taunton]

So so all in all fairly damming of the setup.
Trains run M-F 'cos that's basic hours and the contract.
Trains don't run, or are unpredictably impacted on Sat 'cos drivers don't like Hornsey and prefer a day/eve off, as it's overtime they can turn down, never mind the passengers.
Sunday, most trains do run, still Hornsey, but more people prepared to do overtime, so travellers more likely to see their scheduled train.
.
In the words of the classic expression - 'What a way to run a Railway'!
What's the solution, I don't mean reason's why not, I mean how to.
Shift pattern covering 7 days so that Sat & Sun is no longer optional?

This is what happens in every other industry. Can you imagine Jet 2 not taking you on holiday, or the electricity being cut off, on a Saturday, because those responsible for operating them have it left to them whether they should turn up or not on a Saturday.

One is reminded of the onetime Lord Robens, head of the National Coal Board, going to a Yorkshire pit which, following some substantial wages increases, was renowned for miners absenteeism on Mondays. "Why do so many here just work four days a week?" he asked. "Well, we can't really live on what we earn in three" was the reply.

 

[whoosh]

This is what happens in every other industry. Can you imagine Jet 2 not taking you on holiday, or the electricity being cut off, on a Saturday, because those responsible for operating them have it left to them whether they should turn up or not on a Saturday.

So so all in all fairly damming of the setup.
Trains run M-F 'cos that's basic hours and the contract.
Trains don't run, or are unpredictably impacted on Sat 'cos drivers don't like Hornsey and prefer a day/eve off, as it's overtime they can turn down, never mind the passengers.
Sunday, most trains do run, still Hornsey, but more people prepared to do overtime, so travellers more likely to see their scheduled train.
.
In the words of the classic expression - 'What a way to run a Railway'!
What's the solution, I don't mean reason's why not, I mean how to.
Shift pattern covering 7 days so that Sat & Sun is no longer optional?

Saturdays are optional? Since when?!

 

[24Grange]

Is it ever going to get any better though? I don't remember this many cancellations ( unless for engineering) pre Covid. Have working arrangements agreements changed?

All its doing ( having experienced it once) is to think " Lousy service, can't rely on it - I'm not doing that again" and take the car/bus/taxi for the next trip ( or not go at all). Hence another reason roads are full and trains are at 33 percent ( or whatever it is currently)

 

[jon0844]

Saturdays are optional? Since when?!

I don't think they're entirely optional, but in order to give more rest days on a Saturday, it was agreed to make diagrams longer (and as a consequence, less appealing for rest day work). The upside being more Saturday's off.

Clearly there's an issue if there are now too few drivers wanting to do the overtime and the planned services can't be run on those who are actually rostered.

 

[malc-c]

Malc-c - you can get away with that remark of course, given the fantastic footage you generated during the construction of Stevenage P5.
Equally after all that effort, including yours, it would be nice if the scheduled trains ran on it!
Does anyone have any idea how long this scheduled shambles is going on for?
It is obviously nothing to do with diversions from Moorgate, or its tunnels, as Moorgate is the scheduled terminus today, as normal.

I agree... However no one could predict the impact CV-19 would have on the way we now conduct our lives, or how the government guidelines to isolate if pinged by the track and trace app etc would impact businesses. Maybe if they changed the time tables to match a more realistic number of services that they can run people may accept that as a better service than turning up to catch the next train only to find it, and the following two services have been cancelled due to a lack of train crews. To me it seems more positive to actually run a hourly service, rather than advertise a half-hourly service and have a cancellation.

It is ironic though that all over the TV there have been extensive advertising the past few weeks or so encouraging people to use the rail, bus and tube services to get out, get to work, or socialise... Not exactly a good campaign if a high percentage of those trains and busses aren't running for one reason or another....

 

[WAB]

Is it ever going to get any better though? I don't remember this many cancellations ( unless for engineering) pre Covid. Have working arrangements agreements changed?

All its doing ( having experienced it once) is to think " Lousy service, can't rely on it - I'm not doing that again" and take the car/bus/taxi for the next trip ( or not go at all). Hence another reason roads are full and trains are at 33 percent ( or whatever it is currently)

The GN inners have been sporadic at best at the weekend since WAGN. There have been long-held aspirations for a x15 minute frequency (lots of supressed demand) but even the decidedly poor x30 headways have proved beyond their competence. I don't see how that sort of service attracts leisure traffic.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Notwithstanding having lived in Enfield at the time of the original Hertford Loop electrification in the mid 1970s I have rather lost track of the current set-up. It is unfortunate that the thread title is rather confusing when set against the substance of the discussion that has emerged.

Can someone with genuine current knowledge please summarise which drivers' depots currently work the Hertford Loop locals and have route knowledge into both Moorgate and King's Cross.

Any additional detail, such as vacancy gaps, training backlogs, current high sickness rates due to COVID, etc. at these depots would be welcome.

(Historical baggage about other depots that might have existed or covered some work in the past is not necessary in this context.)

Thanks.

 

[172007]

I don't think they're entirely optional, but in order to give more rest days on a Saturday, it was agreed to make diagrams longer (and as a consequence, less appealing for rest day work). The upside being more Saturday's off.

Clearly there's an issue if there are now too few drivers wanting to do the overtime and the planned services can't be run on those who are actually rostered.

Let's be honest, where I work we get one Saturday off in 3, Sundays are optional. There are many of us who rarely of ever work restday Saturday's due to this ratio. If there are x number of annual leave days available to be used then the quota will be filled even if it means uncovered Jobs.

 

[Aictos]

Notwithstanding having lived in Enfield at the time of the original Hertford Loop electrification in the mid 1970s I have rather lost track of the current set-up. It is unfortunate that the thread title is rather confusing when set against the substance of the discussion that has emerged.

Can someone with genuine current knowledge please summarise which drivers' depots currently work the Hertford Loop locals and have route knowledge into both Moorgate and King's Cross.

Any additional detail, such as vacancy gaps, training backlogs, current high sickness rates due to COVID, etc. at these depots would be welcome.

(Historical baggage about other depots that might have existed or covered some work in the past is not necessary in this context.)

Thanks.

Hitchin, Hornsey, Welwyn Garden City and Kings Cross as stated in this rather useful thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/different-driver-depot-route-and-traction-cards.205085/ I hope you find that useful?

 

[choochoochoo]

So so all in all fairly damming of the setup.
Trains run M-F 'cos that's basic hours and the contract.
Trains don't run, or are unpredictably impacted on Sat 'cos drivers don't like Hornsey and prefer a day/eve off, as it's overtime they can turn down, never mind the passengers.
Sunday, most trains do run, still Hornsey, but more people prepared to do overtime, so travellers more likely to see their scheduled train.
.
In the words of the classic expression - 'What a way to run a Railway'!
What's the solution, I don't mean reason's why not, I mean how to.
Shift pattern covering 7 days so that Sat & Sun is no longer optional?

Not really a problem if all drivers had kept their previous route and traction knowledge. Plenty available either spare or prepared to work rest days (even on a saturday) - The problem comes from compartmentalising depot work.

Saturdays are not optional.

And if Hornsey depot was fully staffed you'd not need to rely so heavily on others doing rest days work. The delays in completing the training of trainees to fill the vacancies are partly down to covid restrictions, but it is also down to the lack of instructors that sign 717s (especially at hornsey). A problem that could be solved by making the instructor role a little more rewarding. Most won't touch the role because the salary upgrade is not worth it. A few extra rest days and you've made up the gap between instructor and regular driver. So why bother and take on additional risk ?

It it was a just a case of having a evening off rather than do overtime, you'd find that friday nights would also be short of cover. That's obviously not the issue.

I don't think they're entirely optional, but in order to give more rest days on a Saturday, it was agreed to make diagrams longer (and as a consequence, less appealing for rest day work). The upside being more Saturday's off.

Clearly there's an issue if there are now too few drivers wanting to do the overtime and the planned services can't be run on those who are actually rostered.

The point that the diagrams are longer is not the issue I believe. If I was doing rest day work I'd prefer the extra hours. It's the work content !! After 4 days of continuous inners would you really want to do another day 100+ stops ? Again it boils down to the lack of variety that comes from compartmentalising depot work. It's probably why welwyn doesn't struggle as badly as there they have slightly better work content.

Can someone with genuine current knowledge please summarise which drivers' depots currently work the Hertford Loop locals and have route knowledge into both Moorgate and King's Cross.

Any additional detail, such as vacancy gaps, training backlogs, current high sickness rates due to COVID, etc. at these depots would be welcome.

(Historical baggage about other depots that might have existed or covered some work in the past is not necessary in this context.)

Thanks.

I believe

Hornsey inner depot sign 717 between letchworth-kings cross/moorgate (via hertford or mainline)
Welwyn sign 717/700 between cambridge-kings cross/moorgate (via hertford or mainline)
Hitchin sign 717/387 between peterborough/letchworth-kings cross/moorgate (via hertford or mainline)

All other depots sign hertford as a diversion.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thank you, Choochoochoo.

Back in the 1970s even though I lived in Enfield I worked on the London Midland. There was a similar problem with Watford Junction depot being almost entirely 'DC', with very repetitive work and endless station stops. The growth in 'outer suburban' services post main line electrification provided some 'new work' that meant that wider traction and route variety could be provided (despite wails of anguish from Bletchley). These changes did a lot to reduce turnover and made it easier to cross-cover some work.

Some factors never seem to change.

 

[choochoochoo]

Thank you, Choochoochoo.

Back in the 1970s even though I lived in Enfield I worked on the London Midland. There was a similar problem with Watford Junction depot being almost entirely 'DC', with very repetitive work and endless station stops. The growth in 'outer suburban' services post main line electrification provided some 'new work' that meant that wider traction and route variety could be provided (despite wails of anguish from Bletchley). These changes did a lot to reduce turnover and made it easier to cross-cover some work.

Some factors never seem to change.

Decisions like this come from folk who look at spreadsheets and numbers all day, never stepped foot on the actual railway and never considered the human factors of their idea.

 

[flitwickbeds]

What's the solution, I don't mean reason's why not, I mean how to.
Shift pattern covering 7 days so that Sat & Sun is no longer optional?

As others have said, Saturdays are not optional.

But to make a 7 day rota, you need to have (roughly) the same service on the weekends as you do on weekdays to avoid staff sitting around doing nothing all day.

 

[choochoochoo]

But to make a 7 day rota, you need to have (roughly) the same service on the weekends as you do on weekdays to avoid staff sitting around doing nothing all day.

which surely becomes easier if there is more work the drivers are actually able to do/cover (more routes/traction)

 

[Mcq]

1) Happy if Mods want to tweak the title as it now seems not to be a 'Kings Cross' / 'Moorgate' issue, so long as the thread stays on the subject of these (and Welwyn's) inners.
2) Regarding Saturday being voluntary - from my perspective as a passenger, if there are not enough drivers, for whatever reason, that can be scheduled and therefor the service offered is reliant on voluntary overtime - then the service is subject to the variability of voluntary working - or not.
3) Given some of the replies above, it makes one wonder how London Overground, let alone London Underground run - perhaps this will push these lines in that direction.