Hidden rules/drivers hours laws

[Nic nic]

Hello all,

I was wondering if someone may be able to explain how drivers hours laws work for a train driver in the UK.
I currently work in the road freight industry and we must ensure drivers do not exceed an average of 48 hours per week over a 26 week reference period. Does it work in a similar way? Just with it averaging 35 hours? Also what are the rules on breaks and rest periods? And what reference period do you guys average your hours over? I am guessing POA is non existant

Many thanks in advance

 

[tiptoptaff]

The basics of Hidden are that safety critical staff cannot work more than 12hours in a single shift, must have a minimum of 12hours rest between shifts and cannot work more than 14 consecutive days without a rest day.
The "average hours" across the rosters merely refers to the fact that drivers are contracted for a 32hour 4day week (at my place, different other places of course) and the nature of train crew diagrams mean that some weeks they work more and some weeks they work less, thus it is averaged out over their cycle. That length of cycle depends on the size of the depot and the links at that depot. Some places it's a small depot and only 10 weeks, one depot at my former TOC is was over 100 weeks.

 

[t_star2001uk]

So, to start with the hidden report recommendation 18 did not state anything about specific working hours

18. BR shall ensure that overtime is monitored so that no individual is working excessive levels of overtime.

This recommendation turned into a group standard GO/ZT0012 which then turned into GH/RT 4004 which specified working hours.

A.2 Limits Applicable prior to the implementation of GH/RT 4004

A.2.1 The limits on working time applicable to the railway group prior to the compliance date of GH/RT 4004 are set out below:-
(a) No more than 12 hours to be worked per turn of duty:
(b) No more than 72 hours to be worked per calendar wekk ( Sunday to Saturday)
(c) A minimum rest period of 12 hours between booking off from a turn of duty to booking on for the next turn. This may be reduced to 8 hours at the weekly shift changeover, in the case of staff working a shift pattern that rotates or alternates on a weekly basis.
(d) No more than 13 turns of duty to be workied in any 14 day period

This was superceeded by ROGS regulations. The appropriate part is here..

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/2867/managing_rail_fatigue.pdf

 

[Intermodal]

cannot work more than 14 consecutive days without a rest day.

You mean 13 days.

 

[Nic nic]

Very informative thank you all. In regards to breaks do you follow working time law i.e. 15 min break if working 6 hours, 30 min if working 6-9 hours and 45 for 9 hours etc

 

[tiptoptaff]

You mean 13 days.

I do indeed.....

 

[tiptoptaff]

Very informative thank you all. In regards to breaks do you follow working time law i.e. 15 min break if working 6 hours, 30 min if working 6-9 hours and 45 for 9 hours etc

We're on a sliding scale, and more than the WTD breaks are required. We also have it that if a break is split, then the two breaks must total more than would be needed if it was one single long break. We also have rules on how early or late in a shift a break can be taken, and a maximum number of hours of work between breaks.

 

[Nic nic]

Makes sense

 

[Llama]

We're on a sliding scale, and more than the WTD breaks are required. We also have it that if a break is split, then the two breaks must total more than would be needed if it was one single long break. We also have rules on how early or late in a shift a break can be taken, and a maximum number of hours of work between breaks.

Every TOC has varying agreements on length, frequency, facilities available, locations permitted etc regarding breaks. These are a lot less standardised across the industry than the Rogs Regs.

 

[sw1ller]

Regards the 48 hours average over 26 weeks, that’s non-existent for a train driver. As an ex HGV driver I know what you’re talking about. Train driver regs are so much simpler in their basic form. What gets complicated is when you look at each depot and the Union agreements set in place. At my TOC alone, the 7 closest depots to mine all have differing agreements and it’s an absolute nightmare for the planners. So when you hear of the train companies trying to harmonise a pay deal and can’t, this is usually the reason. What works well at one depot, won’t work at another. And that’s just at 1 TOC. So you may get different answers on this thread the more comments are made, but there could be crossed lines between the Hidden rules and local agreements.

 

[Nic nic]

That sounds incredibly complex, I can only imagine how hard that must be for planners. I am a logistics planner responsible for 15 drivers with varying different terms and conditions due to some being TUPE'd from sites bought by our company that in itself is complex enough.
So do you guys have compliance managers/co ordinators who watch how many hours drivers are working? Or is the responsibility down to the planners and roster clerks and they get audited regulary to ensure people are not doing astronomical hours?

 

[Llama]

The responsibility is on the planners/roster clerks as well as the duty shift manager/train crew supervisor or equivalent, and as always the buck stops with the driver to preempt and stop any violation before it happens if all the other safety nets fail.

 

[dk1]

The responsibility is on the planners/roster clerks as well as the duty shift manager/train crew supervisor or equivalent, and as always the buck stops with the driver to preempt and stop any violation before it happens if all the other safety nets fail.

Even now some traincrew don't think it's their responsibility. It was always a two way street. As someone that complied rosters & now a driver myself I can't switch off & always pick up if say I've slipped up & only got 11h57 min between turns & the shift (often due to padding) and so get the shift manager to manipulate the times in the system to keep everyone happy.

 

[Llanigraham]

It is worth reminding people that these "Rules" also apply to all Network Rail safety critical staff, like signallers.

 

[Nic nic]

Even now some traincrew don't think it's their responsibility. It was always a two way street. As someone that complied rosters & now a driver myself I can't switch off & always pick up if say I've slipped up & only got 11h57 min between turns & the shift (often due to padding) and so get the shift manager to manipulate the times in the system to keep everyone happy.

This sounds familiar.......

 

[class 9]

If you're a DCR or ROG type driver just work as long as you want!!

 

[Intermodal]

It is worth reminding people that these "Rules" also apply to all Network Rail safety critical staff, like signallers.

Yes but signallers just sit around all day anyway!

 

[PHILIPE]

I was a Controller back in the late 50s (must be old) at a time just prior to Xmas and when additional Parcels trains were running. We had several days of continuous pea-soupers so, without today's technology, it was difficult to know what trains were about and where, signallers were under extreme pressure with trains just piled up all over the place and moving signal to signal at times. These signallers were our only means of communicating away from stations.
Anyway, I received a call at approx 2100 on a Saturday , from a driver and fireman (steam) stating they had been stuck on a Parcels train in a loop all day and telling me they had booked on at 0200 hours that morning. They were not asking for relief particularly but thought they had better shout up to cover themselves.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes but signallers just sit around all day anyway!

My response to that would probably get me banned permanently!!

 

[ComUtoR]

If you're a DCR or ROG type driver just work as long as you want!!

DCR ? ROG ?

Also why would they be different ? Are they not mainline Drivers or TOC Drivers ? Does Heritage have a different set of driving rules ?

 

[t_star2001uk]

DCR ? ROG ?

Also why would they be different ? Are they not mainline Drivers or TOC Drivers ? Does Heritage have a different set of driving rules ?

From what i have heard on ROG, they are not classed as drivers but they are Operations Managers who drive.

 

[Llanigraham]

Could someone please explain what DCR and ROG are?

 

[Surreytraveller]

It is worth reminding people that these "Rules" also apply to all Network Rail safety critical staff, like signallers.

All railway staff, not just Network Rail. It even applies to non-safety critical staff - although there is some debate about that

 

[class 9]

DCR ? ROG ?

Also why would they be different ? Are they not mainline Drivers or TOC Drivers ? Does Heritage have a different set of driving rules ?

All these open access freight operators have a reputation for bending rules on hours, questionable route knowledge etc etc

 

[Surreytraveller]

All these open access freight operators have a reputation for bending rules on hours, questionable route knowledge etc etc

Driving past red signals, isolating equipment to prevent trains being driven past red signals (not the companies mentioned I hasten to add)

 

[theblackwatch]

Could someone please explain what DCR and ROG are?

Both are companies which operate trains in the UK.
DCR - https://www.dcrail.com/
ROG - https://www.railopsgroup.co.uk/

 

[Muzer]

Certainly DCR probably gained their reputation from the farcical (but luckily without severe consequences) Stafford SPAD.

 

[class 9]

Certainly DCR probably gained their reputation from the farcical (but luckily without severe consequences) Stafford SPAD.

Didn’t they spawn from Advenza Freight?. Now they were a real set of cowboys, I witnessed one of their stunts first hand.

 

[sw1ller]

Sorry to go off topic, but do ROG have a bad reputation regarding working conditions or porformance? I was led to believe they were a top company to work for??

 

[Eccles1983]

Rog are a bunch of strike breakers.

They are refused entry to cabs by a lot of drivers due to this. I won't have one in that's for sure.

They also are not recognised by ASLEF due to the grade not being drivers but management.