Hidden rules/drivers hours laws

[sw1ller]

Rog are a bunch of strike breakers.

They are refused entry to cabs by a lot of drivers due to this. I won't have one in that's for sure.

They also are not recognised by ASLEF due to the grade not being drivers but management.

Cheers for that. Had no idea.

 

[PermitToTravel]

(c) A minimum rest period of 12 hours between booking off from a turn of duty to booking on for the next turn. This may be reduced to 8 hours at the weekly shift changeover, in the case of staff working a shift pattern that rotates or alternates on a weekly basis.

Does the Working Time Directive minimum 11 hours rest not apply?

 

[theageofthetra]

Certainly DCR probably gained their reputation from the farcical (but luckily without severe consequences) Stafford SPAD.

Just had a read of that Stafford Report. Shocking.

 

[GB]

Rog are a bunch of strike breakers.

They are refused entry to cabs by a lot of drivers due to this. I won't have one in that's for sure.

They also are not recognised by ASLEF due to the grade not being drivers but management.

What strikes have they broken?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Does the Working Time Directive minimum 11 hours rest not apply?

Its 12 hours on the railway, so more stringent than the WTD

 

[furnessvale]

Rog are a bunch of strike breakers.

They are refused entry to cabs by a lot of drivers due to this. I won't have one in that's for sure.

They also are not recognised by ASLEF due to the grade not being drivers but management.

I got a distinct feeling, not backed up by evidence, that if you are wealthy and wish to play at being an engine driver, you set up your own operating company and you and your mate self certify each others route cards etc.

I hope I am way off beam but I did read that the route card for one "driver" in an incident was a wonder to behold and that some knowledge had been gained by hanging out of the window on passenger trips!

 

[ComUtoR]

Its 12 hours on the railway, so more stringent than the WTD

We can do 11hrs if non safety critical.

 

[theblackwatch]

Rog are a bunch of strike breakers.

They are refused entry to cabs by a lot of drivers due to this. I won't have one in that's for sure.

They also are not recognised by ASLEF due to the grade not being drivers but management.

I find it difficult to work out how someone can be considered to be breaking a union strike if the union does not recognise them!

One thing that is noticeable is that FOCs where there is a 'good' union representation (eg DB Cargo) are the ones that have laid off a lot of drivers, yet it is the likes of ROG that have gained a lot of work. Can it be said that ASLEF did well in looking after its members and protecting their jobs?

 

[Highlandspring]

In terms of the law governing working hours and rest for safety critical railway staff the matter falls under section 25 of part 4 of the Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006, otherwise known as ROGS (and not to be confused with the Railway Operations Group company). Just like Hidden recommendation 18, ROGS does not make any specific provision for maximum turn lengths, minimum rest periods etc.. but is left totally open to the judgement of each individual Railway Undertaking as to how they comply with the legislation. The relevant regulation simply states:

25.—(1) Every controller of safety critical work shall have in place arrangements to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that a safety critical worker under his management, supervision or control does not carry out safety critical work in circumstances where he is so fatigued or where he would be liable to become so fatigued that his health or safety or the health or safety of other persons on a transport system could be significantly affected.

It is up to each indicidual Railway Undertaking as to how it manages its staff to comply with the above regulation and this is overseen by the ORR which, as safety regulator, has powers of prosecution where deficiencies occur. Many have stuck with the former BR ‘Hidden’ requirements which are so familiar as to be often misquoted as being “the law” but there’s absolutely no reason why a company can’t make other arrangements to comply, subject to agreement with the ORR, trade unions and staff. In practice requirements for rest and hours of work do vary between different TOCs, FOCS and other Railway Undertakings but usually not by very much.

 

[whoosh]

It should be noted that both Eurostar and LNER (and maybe others too), have a lower minimum rest period when lodging away in a hotel of less than 12 hours. I think it's 9 or 10 hours that it can be reduced to.

 

[Mojo]

Its 12 hours on the railway, so more stringent than the WTD

On the other hand however, sections of the industry can apply more lax rules in certain cases. Normally, people are entitled to a 20 Minute minimum rest break if they work more than 6 Hours at a time, but in some roles you are exempt from parts of the Working Time Directive, for example Signallers at certain locations do not have a break in their shift. In these cases it is down to company agreements and up to the company to manage fatigue and their requirements under Rogs.

 

[LAX54]

On the other hand however, sections of the industry can apply more lax rules in certain cases. Normally, people are entitled to a 20 Minute minimum rest break if they work more than 6 Hours at a time, but in some roles you are exempt from parts of the Working Time Directive, for example Signallers at certain locations do not have a break in their shift. In these cases it is down to company agreements and up to the company to manage fatigue and their requirements under Rogs.

Many, if not most manual boxes get no official break, they nip to the loo, or eat a sandwich when traffic permits, in a lower graded box, maybe not an issue, but get to the busier ones, then it can prove almost impossible, but this is about Drivers rather then Signallers

 

[Llanigraham]

Even in a four trains an hour Box it can sometimes be difficult to get a break, what with phone calls from UWC phones, S & T working on a signal, or P-way wanting a Line Blockage to walk the tunnel.
And people seem to forget that a train passing can involve say 10 minutes activity from the time "Is Line Clear"? is belled to when "Train out of Section" is sent.
We aren't sat on our bottoms all the time, as someone suggested earlier.

 

[The Crab]

What is the position where a train gets stranded in an inaccessable location (perhaps because of the weather) and the crew run out of hours? Should the crew sign themselves off & go and put their feet up in the train?

As an aside what is the position for lorry drivers when they are stuck on a motorway for 6 hours?

 

[sw1ller]

Lorry drivers are allowed special dispensation to get to the nearest rest area. They must do a digi tacho print out (must carry spare printer reels by law) and note on the back of it. This must be handed in to your transport section at the earliest opportunity (within 2 weeks I think). You’re to park the lorry up and have sufficient rest or get someone to replace you while you get a taxi home or hotel (would never see the latter happening at my old place)

A train driver would simply contact control and take it from there.

 

[The Crab]

Can control tell them to stay on duty?

 

[Llanigraham]

Can control tell them to stay on duty?

In the signalling grades, no, but I can think of two occasions where I was asked to stay on for a short time.
Once during severe snowfall, when my relief couldn't get in and no one else was available, so I stayed on for an hour and was out up in a local hotel so I could work the next night shift. Doing that meant I didn't have to drive 45 miles home, so the 12 hour between shifts was relaxed.
The other because my relief had a puncture on the way in but estimated he would be no longer than 15minutes late, which proved correct.
However I also know of a signaller who refused point blank to work more than his 12 hour shiftshift, refused to accept Is Line clear? from the preceding Box, sent the closing bells and walked out! And there was nothing the LOM could do about it.

 

[sw1ller]

Control may try!

 

[t_star2001uk]

Control may try!

Obviously the train just cant be abandoned just anywhere...

 

[sw1ller]

Obviously the train just cant be abandoned just anywhere...

No of course. I was more replying to the word “tell”. I was being a bit facetious. I’d hope no driver/guard would even consider abandoning a train full of passengers in the middle of nowhere.

I’d say it’s entirely down to the driver/guard if they feel it’s safe to continue (to move the train). Depends on the situation and circumstances. That’s why I said, call control and take it from there. There’s many factors to take into consideration.

 

[Llanigraham]

Obviously the train just cant be abandoned just anywhere...

Agreed about the passenger train, but as I related earlier, I have seen just that done with a freight train in a loop out in the country. Relief driver had to be taxied up from South Wales.

 

[t_star2001uk]

The point I was making is it has to be a suitable place...

 

[dk1]

Can control tell them to stay on duty?

They can ask. For traincrew it's usually in their own interest to get back to their own depot & most of us are decent guys. Dispensation is normally given to break hidden in such circumstances. I've done 15h15 in the past & driving at the end still. My longest continuous shift was 0500-2138 during storm Doris but apart from sitting in the cab I hadn't turned a wheel since 1750 so not so bad safety critical wise. Last bit was in a taxi after screwing the unit down at North Walsham for the night.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Can it be said that ASLEF did well in looking after its members and protecting their jobs?

ASLEF have had agreements where a lot of redundant freight drivers have transferred to TOC’s. But that’s getting off topic.

 

[Nic nic]

Right then some intresting points made in this thread. Just to make sure I have got it right in regards to a driver:
Hours per day must not exceed 12 hours.
Drivers must have a minimum of 12 hours rest between turns.
If a driver works for 13 consecutive days they must have the following day i.e. the 14th off (surely further days in addition to compensate the driver for rest days missed?)

A further question. How many hours can a driver actually drive non stop before they have to have a break?

 

[dk1]

Right then some intresting points made in this thread. Just to make sure I have got it right in regards to a driver:
Hours per day must not exceed 12 hours.
Drivers must have a minimum of 12 hours rest between turns.
If a driver works for 13 consecutive days they must have the following day i.e. the 14th off (surely further days in addition to compensate the driver for rest days missed?)

A further question. How many hours can a driver actually drive non stop before they have to have a break?

Driving with out a break is often around the 4.5hr mark but varies. Yes, it's 13 consecutive days & then the driver (or guard) is booked off with pay the next day. That is prolific in my TOC & what's not to like? Work an extra late turn Sunday to earn £££s then get a day off company account Monday back early Tuesday. Happy days.

 

[ungreat]

I find it difficult to work out how someone can be considered to be breaking a union strike if the union does not recognise them!

One thing that is noticeable is that FOCs where there is a 'good' union representation (eg DB Cargo) are the ones that have laid off a lot of drivers, yet it is the likes of ROG that have gained a lot of work. Can it be said that ASLEF did well in looking after its members and protecting their jobs?

I take it you don't care for unions?

 

[Nic nic]

Driving with out a break is often around the 4.5hr mark but varies. Yes, it's 13 consecutive days & then the driver (or guard) is booked off with pay the next day. That is prolific in my TOC & what's not to like? Work an extra late turn Sunday to earn £££s then get a day off company account Monday back early Tuesday. Happy days.

I would have there arm off if I was offered that
But not every fortnight.....

 

[theblackwatch]

I take it you don't care for unions?

You take it wrong!

 

[dk1]

I would have there arm off if I was offered that
But not every fortnight.....

Oh I don't know. Works for me