High cost of train travel apparently influencing peoples choice of university

[notlob.divad]

I never went to university, so my closest comparison would be an apprenticeship interview in London. The time meant I had to leave earlier than the first train on my local line. There's no coaches my old neck of the woods and buses/taxis may well not exist.

If I was less fortunate I would have been fairly stuck. If I didn't have a part time job I wouldn't have had the funds to go. If my grandmother wasn't able to drive I wouldn't have been able to get a lift to Ipswich to begin my journey there. If it had been any further afield it would have been even more difficult without an overnight stay and more expense. I know other families in the village who would have found it nigh on impossible to organise with low income and the only driver working 3 jobs to scrape a living.

Whether you like it or not, travel is another barrier for education against those who don't have the bank of mum and dad to fall back on, especially in rural areas. Just getting to college for me meant a 30 minute moped journey plus an hour bus ride. If I didn't have the funds to pay for the moped in the first place I'd have had to leave at 4am or so for a three hour walk to the bus.

Well said and sadly this is the point being missed by many on here. The UK is a country which has the resources to remove these unesseaary barriers and give everyone the best opportunity to achieve their full potential.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well said and sadly this is the point being missed by many on here. The UK is a country which has the resources to remove these unesseaary barriers and give everyone the best opportunity to achieve their full potential.

Indeed it does, but that's not going to help this year's students, as if there is change it won't be quick.

 

[BJames]

I'm not so convinced. As someone who works in the sector, I don't really understand the need to do lots and lots of open days. Universities are more alike than we pretend.

In terms of lifestyle, there really are only six choices: Oxbridge; London; small town prestigious; campus; urban; small town 'local' post-92. Most people will probably have an intuitive sense of which of these would suit them, or at least can discount three or four styles. After visiting a couple of unis the value of extra visits really drops - if you've been to Leeds, you have a pretty good sense of life at Manchester, or Liverpool, or Newcastle; if you've been to Lancaster you don't really need to visit York, or Keele, or wherever. Add to this that course availability, grades and other personal preferences restrict choice in various ways and I think with a bit of research the vast majority of students needn't visit more than 4 unis and most need only visit a couple.


I can't help but think that students and their families are being somewhat conned slightly into making these trips by universities who are desperate to recruit, and a travel industry which is quite happy to facilitate the extra visits

I disagree. As someone joining University for my first year in September, it's completely inconceivable for me to not visit somewhere that I will be spending 3+ years, as well as investing time and gaining debt (I know some say it's like an invisible debt, but it is still there). The biggest difference between Universities is demonstrated after you have whittled down your choices - I wanted to visit loads but got to around 6 after considering the difference in courses etc. The impression that the university gives you, the atmosphere and the interest/enthusiasm of the initial lecture is something that people really want to experience for themselves. It's not JUST about sense of life, because yes, you may have either visited those cities before or visiting another close by.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that train fares should be reduced even further for students (I use a Two Together Railcard with my mum, some can go on their own and use a 16-25 Railcard). What I am saying is that it is fair enough that students want to visit their place of study. But, as others have said, there are often cheaper ways of doing so with research (Megatrain for example, although I know this may not be possible for much longer).

Can you imagine them doing that these days? I can't.

They'd be reluctant to sell their IPhone, XBox, Apple computer or even personal furniture (pans, bedside cabinate, etc) just to get from where they're studying to where they actually live. I think it stems down to this mindset that some students (not all, but some) feel that they want everything for free or at least costing no more than £4.

Yet most of the student loan is spent on unessacary items such as booze, if they can afford that then they can afford the set price on rail fares.

Students don't want everything for free. It's important to remember a huge societal pressure on students now to maintain studies, social life, relationships and still go home regularly to parents if living in accommodation. Nobody is saying students should get free travel on the train, and those really struggling perhaps should get the coach, it is more economical ultimately. Many of my friends do so. Those who are more smart and manage their money better, booking advance fares as soon as they come out, find that travelling by rail is still much better.

You may be choosing to fill your time, but the majority of teenagers don't have commitments like children and full time work. They have school/college, but that's a much shorter day and homework could be done on the coach. If you choose to fill your time with other things, that's your choice, but don't expect any sympathy if that means you have to work or save to afford a costlier but faster method of transport. In life you make choices, and with those choices come consequences. Some are positive and some are negative.

I admit that I may not be the same as a lot of students, but in the run up to my A Levels (which are now finished), I was revising for up to 12 hours each day, at sixth form between 7:50am and 6:00pm four days a week, and the other three working at home instead. Anything that took up more than a couple of hours of my time caused me stress (possibly more than necessary) but it was because I needed the time to focus. There is a much higher expectation on students to do well, I know my teachers are expecting a lot from me as I gained an unconditional, and I was working to prove that I wasn't just relaxing as I had nothing to worry about.

Edit: Also just remembered - I saw something at the University of Bristol this year - if your annual household income is less than £42,875, then you are entitled to claim back the cost of your travel to their official Open Day. This is only for the student and NOT any accompanying parents, carers or friends. This is based on the assumption that you book early in advance to gain the most favourable fare and of course, standard class only. It's also eligible for petrol costs as well.

 

[underbank]

Indeed it does, but that's not going to help this year's students, as if there is change it won't be quick.

No government-level change is ever going to be quick, but that doesn't mean changes should never be made. Yes, it won't help this years', probably not next years' either or beyond, but the sooner changes are made, the sooner future students will benefit. Things which can be done relatively quickly should be done, things that take longer should at least be started.

 

[Brissle Girl]

So stay in Newcastle and travel down from there. Tons of coaches go to Newcastle, as well as budget flights, and there's tons of accommodation, and the train down is cheap.

Find solutions. Don't find problems and whine about them.

I wasnt whining, simply making an observation. My two are already at uni and we funded their journeys to their 10 UCAS choices cheerfully, including overnight stays when necessary and now during their time there. Didn’t even give it a second thought.

Your post comes over as somewhat aggressive in my opinion - let’s try and keep things friendly when people have differing points of view.

 

[JWB_]

I think I spent around £180 going to various open days and interview days when deciding which university I wanted to go to, and that was just going from Beverley to Leeds, Sheffield, York & Newcastle. Luckily some of this I could claim back from the university and the rest my sixth form funded me, however if I was applying for universities further away I don't think I could have funded it. Train tickets prices is absolutely a consideration students have to make when choosing uni and sometimes saying that advance tickets reduce the cost isn't the answer, as I guarantee most students will have to make one emergency trip home, which could cost hundreds and hundreds of pounds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I admit that I may not be the same as a lot of students, but in the run up to my A Levels (which are now finished), I was revising for up to 12 hours each day, at sixth form between 7:50am and 6:00pm four days a week, and the other three working at home instead.

No, you're very much not - I can't concentrate for that length of day and about 4 hours out of those 12 would have been a waste of time.

Of course, you can revise on a coach journey - oddly I found train journeys to be a good place to revise because there are few distractions other than the view out of the window!

 

[Typhoon]

As someone joining University for my first year in September, it's completely inconceivable for me to not visit somewhere that I will be spending 3+ years, as well as investing time and gaining debt .... The biggest difference between Universities is demonstrated after you have whittled down your choices - I wanted to visit loads but got to around 6 after considering the difference in courses etc. The impression that the university gives you, the atmosphere and the interest/enthusiasm of the initial lecture is something that people really want to experience for themselves.

An entirely sensible approach.

I admit that I may not be the same as a lot of students, but in the run up to my A Levels (which are now finished), I was revising for up to 12 hours each day, at sixth form between 7:50am and 6:00pm four days a week, and the other three working at home instead. … I know my teachers are expecting a lot from me as I gained an unconditional, and I was working to prove that I wasn't just relaxing as I had nothing to worry about.

I trust your endeavours will be rewarded. Too late now but the hard work you put in was for you, not your teachers; its your life, health, not theirs.​

Also just remembered - I saw something at the University of Bristol this year - if your annual household income is less than £42,875, then you are entitled to claim back the cost of your travel to their official Open Day. .... This is based on the assumption that you book early in advance to gain the most favourable fare and of course, standard class only. It's also eligible for petrol costs as well.

Now this is wholly commendable, I have come across cases where lowly ranked universities have offered such inducements but not a top twenty. Thanks for this. ​

 

[yorksrob]

I went to uni in the mid-90s as well, and the cost of travel did influence my choices. I settled for a uni 60 miles away instead of one 300 miles away. The courses on offer were equally attractive, but I wanted to be able to travel home more often without worrying about the cost.

One of my sisters did the same, opting to study in London.

For me, I went back at the end of term, which seemed enough.

 

[tbtc]

The two things are linked, though. The perception of cost is influenced by the quality of the journey. And on XC you have sky-high fares and crappy trains.

Most journeys are necessary, so I'm less convinced by the argument that high fares act as a demand control. It's far more that XC charge so much simply because they can.

If I travel to the south west from here I fly, as the cost saving is huge. And I doubt Flybe and EasyJet fly the routes as a charity case, so...

Airlines aren't paying the infrastructure costs that TOCs pay though - they are flying for an hour rather than covering four hundred miles of solid infrastructure (which takes significantly longer than the hour that the flight will be in the air).

Plus, airlines can dump the cheapest tickets for a pittance because they don't have to worry about someone buying them to only go part way (e.g. a Newcastle - Plymouth flight can be sold for the price of a couple of packets of fags because it'll otherwise go unused - a TOC has to factor in the number of times that a seat may be occupied on a long journey like that, so they can't dump seats at a huge discount - and if they did then there's a chance that someone would use the seat to do a much shorter journey, thus depriving the railway of income - so nothing like a fair comparison).

XC charge so much partly because they have little spare capacity to encourage cheaper travel and partly because a lot of the cheapest tickets are only within certain "boundaries", thus making XC look expensive (e.g. a PTE will subsidise fares in its area, but a journey on XC *between* PTE areas won't have the same subsidy). Maybe if they had much longer trains they'd sell many more discounted tickets, but they don't.

Yet you advocate a policy where the railway prices potential customers out of the market away.

There are always going to be situations where potential customers are priced away by things being too expensive for their budgets - I quite fancy a trip to the seaside at the weekend but is the railway at fault if I am priced out of travelling because I can't afford the fares (with my meagre income)?

We can't run a railway where everyone can afford every journey they may potentially want to make.

Ah yes, crummy XC with it's overpriced, overcrowded trains is the weakest link as usual. Of course, we could have oodles of capacity tomorrow, but the Government (of either colour) would rather pull arbitrary deadlines out of its arse and render all of the surplus rolling stock useless.

My point about the special groupsave, is that the schools/universities could have a part in allocating

You mean the long established deadline in ensuring that trains are accessible?

The railway doesn't exist in a vacuum - this isn't Sodor - the railway has to comply with accessibility regulations (just like buses did a few years ago).

The fact that Wabtec (etc) can't turn a 1970s sow's ear into a modern silk purse is annoying/ frustrating, but we have to deal with the fact that inaccessible trains are not going to be acceptable for much longer (even if they are our favourite ones with the slam doors and the dropped windows).

I'm not sure of your point about groupsave - are you saying that we should allocate discounted tickets to schools/ universities (over and about the "young person" discounts that school leavers will already qualify for)? If so, where do you draw the line in terms of deserving people wanting discounted train travel? If an Open Day is significant enough then what about getting to/from university at the start/end of every term over the length of the course? What about other areas of society (who I'm sure would also like significantly discounted train travel)?

 

[bastien]

Bloody student gwants. This is why I detest students and thier cluless, whiny sense of entitlement. If you cant afford to go to the open day then tough. Welcome to the real world.

They already get a generous discount card for both rail and coach.

Btw whe I was on my uppers and had to get from darlo to mk, twice, for interviews for work I had to sell my TV to pay for the coach fare.

Ps I have a proper degree in a proper subject ( not media studies or somesuch) and just to be clear I hated students then!

I did a science subject, and my tutor was very clear that you should never use clichés. Just sayin'.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I'm going to add something to this discussion.

If the cost of high rail fares are causing difficulties for those on a low income, why haven't potential university students looked at doing the Open University?

The only downfall I see with this is when you have to pick up your diploma, as you hve a choice of which uni where you to pick it up from. Things may have changed though as one of my relitivies collected theirs from the University of Reading.

 

[rg177]

I should add- when I've worked open days at my university, parents were accompanying around 75% of attendees, then probably an even split of the remainder was students together and students on their own.

 

[chris_in_salop]

Quite!

I suppose that’s the scarcity principle at work. In this country it is now considered a God given right, not a privilege, for everyone who wants one to receive a full primary, secondary and tertiary education.

As such education isn’t really valued in the way that it is in other societies and people expect everything handed to them on a plate. Hence the self entitled whining about what are minor inconveniences in the grand scheme of things.

Seems to be rather a lot of people who believe that the railway has a God-given right to charge a fortune to travel on hugely overcrowded 4-carriage XC trains that stink of toilets.

Hence the self-entitled whining when any customer dares to raise an objection. Don't they realise that they ought to have booked 3 months in advance, paid for overnight accommodation or used a coach instead?

I'm lucky that I received a full grant and paid no fees when I went back in the mid 90s. I'm lucky that just about everywhere was easy to reach from my home in Birmingham. I'm also lucky that I bought my first house at 22. Today's teenagers are not so lucky.

And as for spending all their cash on booze, as someone alleged, it is well established that today's young people drink far less than their parents, or grandparents come to that.

 

[DarloRich]

I did a science subject, and my tutor was very clear that you should never use clichés. Just sayin'.

I didnt do science. It is, like scientists, dull and boring.

Oh. Hang on...............

 

[yorksrob]

that trains are accessible?

The railway doesn't exist in a vacuum - this isn't Sodor - the railway has to comply with accessibility regulations (just like buses did a few years ago).

The fact that Wabtec (etc) can't turn a 1970s sow's ear into a modern silk purse is annoying/ frustrating, but we have to deal with the fact that inaccessible trains are not going to be acceptable for much longer (even if they are our favourite ones with the slam doors and the dropped windows).

Presumably, our continental neighbours, most of whom have managed to absorb accessibility legislation without incorporating a precipitous deadline such as ours, also don't live in Sodor ? It's amazing how other countries manage to develop pragmatic and sensible work-arounds for such issues, unless you're a true believer in British exceptionalism and feel that we're the only country to have concerned itself with accessibility problems ?

When you're stuck in a vestibule cross-country, any train with a seat is "your favourite" train.

I'm not sure of your point about groupsave - are you saying that we should allocate discounted tickets to schools/ universities (over and about the "young person" discounts that school leavers will already qualify for)? If so, where do you draw the line in terms of deserving people wanting discounted train travel? If an Open Day is significant enough then what about getting to/from university at the start/end of every term over the length of the course? What about other areas of society (who I'm sure would also like significantly discounted train travel)?

I'm afraid that this has been identified as a barrier to social mobility, however much it might interfere with your belief in a commercial railway. It will benefit both the railway and education sector to attempt to overcome it.

 

[bastien]

I didnt do science. It is, like scientists, dull and boring.

Oh. Hang on...............

I thought you said you did a real subject.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm going to add something to this discussion.

If the cost of high rail fares are causing difficulties for those on a low income, why haven't potential university students looked at doing the Open University?

The only downfall I see with this is when you have to pick up your diploma, as you hve a choice of which uni where you to pick it up from. Things may have changed though as one of my relitivies collected theirs from the University of Reading.

Because the Open University isn't suitable for many courses, mine for example is a science course, and if I went through the OU then I wouldn't get access to the labs etc.
And you don't get the same experience with the lecturers, being able to ask them questions face to face

 

[Bromley boy]

Seems to be rather a lot of people who believe that the railway has a God-given right to charge a fortune to travel on hugely overcrowded 4-carriage XC trains that stink of toilets.

Hence the self-entitled whining when any customer dares to raise an objection. Don't they realise that they ought to have booked 3 months in advance, paid for overnight accommodation or used a coach instead?

With respect this rather misses the point those of us who object to the article in the OP are making.

The railway offers a range of different pricing levels for people with different priorities and budgets. In general you will pay more for travelling at peak times, just as you will pay more for flexibility.

Students and young people already benefit from discounted ticket prices, naturally enough not usually when travelling at peak times*.

The railway is only one relatively quick, relatively comfortable and (usually) relatively expensive method of transport. If it does not fit within budget, one is free to choose from a range of cheaper available options in the form of coaches, car sharing etc. as has been repeated ad nauseam above.

As such it is ludicrous (and self entitled) to blame rail fares for students struggling to visit open days, while completely ignoring other available, cheaper, options they are free to choose.

*Many of the most expensive rail fares are regulated by the DfT, and are the level that they are because of the government’s policy of placing more of the burden of running the railway onto fare payers than general taxation. If you disagree with that, you are free to choose to vote accordingly!

 

[mmh]

Disruption of the lessons, disruption of your exam preperation / revision. Bear in mind the schools colleges and teachers are all judged by the exam results of their students as well, it is no longer about getting your students to become the best person they can be as individuals. But a machined learning environment were everyone is expected to achieve the level that has been predetermined for them.

It might be a consequence of my age and my personal experience, but I find that argument questionable when it's used for pre-16 education, let alone post.

If someone's A Level result is genuinely going to be materially affected by missing one lesson it suggests they might just not be very good.

Where does this attitude from schools / colleges really come from? A lack of confidence in candidates, or a lack of confidence in staff? Either way it feels wrong.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned on this thread is that post-16 education is now semi-compulsory, and I wonder if that has changed things in a way I and others with our anecdotes of how things were like in our day don't fully understand.

 

[maire23]

I'm going to add something to this discussion.

If the cost of high rail fares are causing difficulties for those on a low income, why haven't potential university students looked at doing the Open University?

The only downfall I see with this is when you have to pick up your diploma, as you hve a choice of which uni where you to pick it up from. Things may have changed though as one of my relitivies collected theirs from the University of Reading.

I have an OU degree and I’m on my second now. The degree certificate comes by post; you can choose to attend any OU graduation ceremony after your degree is conferred or none at all; I live in Leicester but I attended the ceremony at Gateshead Sage as I am from Newcastle and my family live there.

Probably the reason the OU is not attractive to most is that there is a) no maintenance loan (unless in Wales or in England if a student cannot attend a conventional university because of disability- I have such a loan due to my physical and mental health problems) and b) no social network. OU study can be a very lonely place. I’m a lot older (I was 36 when I graduated with my first degree and I will be 40 when I graduate with my second) and my disabilities make attending a conventional uni difficult (I tried it for my Masters last year and it made me very, very unwell) so to the likes of me the OU has been a godsend.

This subject has been done to death on the OU forums- there are a small number of young students but they either are young parents for whom childcare would be impossible, those with significant disabilities, a small number of gifted and talented who are starting their degrees too young for a conventional university, or those who have taken a job instead of going to uni and perhaps want to further their career while working and earning.

The OU sadly is probably never really going to be a viable option for many 18 year olds wanting to study a degree.

 

[SilentGrade]

What always strikes me the most about these threads is that almost everyone seems to accept that train fares are expensive, even those who promote alternative travel to get over it.

I think it comes to the fundemental question on whether posters think the railway should be accessible to all or only those *privileged* enough to afford it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What always strikes me the most about these threads is that almost everyone seems to accept that train fares are expensive, even those who promote alternative travel to get over it.

I think it comes to the fundemental question on whether posters think the railway should be accessible to all or only those *privileged* enough to afford it.

But then the railway is probably a fair way down the list of things for which that question needs to be answered.

As for the general point of "whine vs action" - perhaps a good campaign would be - "well, I've had to work extra hours in my part time job to afford to take a National Express overnight coach, and I was very tired on arrival and maybe didn't get the best out of my visit - perhaps there should be funding for potential students to visit their UCAS selections at child rate, and the universities should offer budget accommodation in their halls as most open days are outside term time?"

Not what I seem to be reading which is a bit like "woe is me, I've missed out on my life goal to study Engineering at Manchester because an Anytime Return from London to Manchester is 300 quid, and I've had to go to Rathole-on-Sea Polytechnic to study Advanced Paint Drying instead", which, while that fare is outrageously priced, shows someone who has put in no effort whatsoever and is just whining.

 

[Bromley boy]

This subject has been done to death on the OU forums- there are a small number of young students but they either are young parents for whom childcare would be impossible, those with significant disabilities, a small number of gifted and talented who are starting their degrees too young for a conventional university, or those who have taken a job instead of going to uni and perhaps want to further their career while working and earning

Indeed.

It’s also an excellent way to access degree level study for people who for whatever reason failed to get the “traditional” GCSE/A level qualifications needed to start at 18.

I know someone from precisely this background who studied an OU degree over six years during his mid-late twenties while working and has now greatly improved his earnings and future prospects.

But agreed, it’s not really a relevant comparator to a “conventional” uni for those who are intending to go in at 18.

 

[yorksrob]

But then the railway is probably a fair way down the list of things for which that question needs to be answered.

But isn't the point of the original BBC article that one would have thought that train fares were a fair way down the list, but it turns out that they have an unusually great impact.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But isn't the point of the original BBC article that one would have thought that train fares were a fair way down the list, but it turns out that they have an unusually great impact.

Because people go "the train is too expensive, it's impossible" and don't bother investigating other options - certainly that's how the article reads.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m not sure how this is news. Hasn’t it always been the case? It certainly affected my choice of University, and that of my father.

 

[BJames]

An entirely sensible approach.

I trust your endeavours will be rewarded. Too late now but the hard work you put in was for you, not your teachers; its your life, health, not theirs.​

Now this is wholly commendable, I have come across cases where lowly ranked universities have offered such inducements but not a top twenty. Thanks for this. ​

Appreciate your comments, it's certainly great to be finished with the work for a few months at least!

No, you're very much not - I can't concentrate for that length of day and about 4 hours out of those 12 would have been a waste of time.

Of course, you can revise on a coach journey - oddly I found train journeys to be a good place to revise because there are few distractions other than the view out of the window!

Thank you, and yes, agreed - I actually did use some of the quieter journeys to revise as grabbing a table seat actually gave quite a lot of room. I do still enjoy the journeys though and I'm definitely in the percentage that would rather pay that bit extra for the train journey - although I do know that not everyone is in the same position.

 

[J-Rod]

I disagree. As someone joining University for my first year in September...

Much better written than some of the posts on here. How old are you again?!

When I was at uni, I could have taken the train literally to the front door of the place every day but my lectures were at such weird times that I figured it was easier, cheaper and quicker to drive from Swansea to Trefforest and back every day (so I lived at home, kept my job in WH Smiths and avoided taking out huge loans). Then I moved to London and didn't have a car for 3 years and took the trains everywhere (I think that makes me carbon-neutral?!). If I had stayed up there close to campus and gone back home on trains, I'd have an acre of debt to repay now and also, have been pretty skint at the time (never had to worry about beer money). It did mean I had to get up at the crack of dawn every day I was there but hey, good training for my first job in London where the starts were at weird times (but that was OK as I was more likely to get a seat on the train!)

 

[rg177]

But then the railway is probably a fair way down the list of things for which that question needs to be answered.

As for the general point of "whine vs action" - perhaps a good campaign would be - "well, I've had to work extra hours in my part time job to afford to take a National Express overnight coach, and I was very tired on arrival and maybe didn't get the best out of my visit - perhaps there should be funding for potential students to visit their UCAS selections at child rate, and the universities should offer budget accommodation in their halls as most open days are outside term time?"

Not what I seem to be reading which is a bit like "woe is me, I've missed out on my life goal to study Engineering at Manchester because an Anytime Return from London to Manchester is 300 quid, and I've had to go to Rathole-on-Sea Polytechnic to study Advanced Paint Drying instead", which, while that fare is outrageously priced, shows someone who has put in no effort whatsoever and is just whining.

My bold- my university does actually offer this. It's £30 B&B per room per night and does get a reasonable uptake. Also gives folk a taste of what they'll be living in for their first year!

They then get to campus on a free bus service put on (contracted out to First at the minute).