High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

Discussion in 'Future High Speed Rail' started by deltic, 10 Nov 2011.

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  1. deltic

    deltic Established Member

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    A number of MPs have made comments on the proposed route which suggest that the section to Leeds will stop at what look like parkway stations at Totton and Meadowhall. Not clear where the station will actually be in Leeds. There has been talk of a parkway station at the junction where HS2 will branch off into Leeds and carry on to connect back with ECML but not clear where that will be.

    Anyone know how many paths could be made available on ECML and MML as a result of HS2 and how they are likely to be used?
     
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  3. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Well, my guess is that everything fast will be sent via HS2, so that would be 2tph Leeds and 2tph York (Newcastle & Edinbrugh).

    Personally I'd have the HS2 line run as full sized HS2 to Leeds and branch off (grade seperated) to re-join the ECML just south of Doncaster, so there is potential for off route services such as Hull to be sent via HS2 with servicing dividing at Doncaster. (200m to Hull, 200m to Newcastle etc etc)

    So that at the top of the Yorkshire and E Mids arm of the HS2 route, the line itself continues into Leeds and terminates, and there is a branch to Doncaster on the ECML for services to Edinbrugh and Newcastle to use. But at this point I'd also want to look at intergrating the Birmingham end of HS2 into the Camp Hill Line if the route to Bristol is electrified, and using HS2 as part of the XC Network. Full of crazy ideas me...

    With planned further extentions to York and eventually Newcastle.
     
  4. cle

    cle Established Member

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    I think that for journey times to be half decent, the section linking north of Leeds has to bypass Leeds.

    Joining at Doncaster would be pointless - it will have come via Birmingham?! It would be quicker up the ECML. As for London to Hull via Birmingham....!

    Around the Selby area would make more sense, the further north the better as the longer at 300+km/h, the more time savings over the ECML.

    I don't think a York bypass makes sense. on the other hand, a fast York is about 1h50 and I can't imagine running on HS2 via B'ham International, East Midlands and Sheffield stops would make it much quicker.
     
  5. stockport1

    stockport1 Member

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    how does HS2 help leeds-manchester-liverpool commuters?
     
  6. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    But it will free up paths on the ECML... And it would be about 1hr35 to York if the line reahed say, the junctions to the south, with Leeds served by a branch from a Delta Junction
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    It doesn't...

    The're helpled by the Northern Hub and possible CP5 Electrification of the TP North network.
     
  7. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    It potentially frees up more paths on the ECML though, since it'll remove some of the speed differentials on the two track sections (e.g. a 91 running on the two track section through Stoke Tunnel area is going to catch up an EMT 158 on Liverpool - Norwich).

    If everything on the ECML becomes 100mph max then that allows more services to be fitted in.
     
    Last edited: 10 Nov 2011
  8. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Kind of my point tbtc...
     
  9. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Okay, sorry, jut trying to make the point that you free up more paths than the just the number of trains diverted away...
     
  10. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Would also take up swathes of XC's path if the core of XC's network is electrified by then. eg.

    Newcastle / Edin - Bristol via HS2, Manchester - Reading via HS2, reverse at Curzon St and use a (not yet specified, but hopfully will be) link to the WCML at Coventry, with Bristol using a C Brum link to the Camp Hill line.
     
  11. DXMachina

    DXMachina Member

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    The comment about northern trains being routed onto HS2 makes me wonder.... when new high speed units take on scotland services currently run by Virgin Pendolinos and East Coast 91s, what happens to the displaced stock?
     
  12. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Fair question.

    Some long distance units will be life expired by the time HS2 is completed (the first bit to BIrmingham won't open until 2025 at the earliest, so it may take twenty years for the whole thing to be built).

    There are also a few long distance services that are still diesel - the Midland Mainline and Cross Country being the obvious ones.

    Plus there will still need to be services from London to Grantham/ Stoke etc (and other places not on the HS2 route)
     
  13. Philip Elliott

    Philip Elliott Member

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    I'm sure the people of Wakefield, Hull, Doncaster, Peterborough, Newark, Grantham etc etc will be so glad to hear they will get slower trains:roll:
     
  14. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Hence why I'd have it connecting south of Doncaster, splitting in the platforms to serve the Branches from Doncaster.

    For the inital network running into Leeds at full size gauge and a connection to Doncaster for Classic Compatible units.

    Considering that CC units will not be able to run at double length in most ECML stations, 400m long services could join up at Doncaster and run onwards to York (2tph) and the other portion onto Leeds via Wakefeild 1tph or Hull, or Harrogate via York (Splitting at York), or Cleethorpes (Loco hauled), etc.

    400m long platforms wouldn't be too difficult to drop into Doncaster, neither would EU Gauge platforms for full size units to fit, so the line may continue from Doncaster to York and onwards to Newcastle as full size units. Splitting still being facilitated within Doncaster station.

    Example service pattern being...

    2tph Euston - (Birmingham Intl) - (E Mids) - Sheffeild - Leeds (Captive) (Possible extentions using CC Stock)
    2tph Euston - (Birmingham Intl) - (E Mids) - Sheffeild - Doncaster (SPLIT) (All operated by CC Stock)
    ---- 2tph York - (Darlington) - (Durham) - Newcastle 1tph extended to Edinburgh
    ---- 1tph Bradford / Skipton / Harrogate via Leeds & Wakefeild
    ---- 1tp2h Hull Paragon Interchange or Harrogate via York

    1tph Edinburgh - Newcastle - (Durham) - (Darlington) - York - Doncaster - (Sheffeild) - (E Mids) - Birmingham CZS - (Bristol, if available) CC Stock
    1tph Leeds - Sheffeild - E Mids - Birmingham CZS - (Reading, if available) CC Stock

    With of course...

    3tph Euston - Birmingham CZS (Captive)
    3tph Euston - Manchester (CC Stock, but into the dedicated HS2 terminus with 430m platforms)

    The following would be 200m long at terminus, and therefore could be joined at Crewe...
    (Not that question marks indicate fantasy services)
    1tph Euston - Liverpool via Runcorn
    1tph Euston - Glasgow

    1tph Euston - Liverpool via St Helens
    1tph Euston - Blackpool

    1tph Euston - Chester
    1tph Euston - Manchester Victoria - Huddersfeild - Brighouse - Bradford?

    And that leaves paths available for international services:

    1tph Manchester Mayfeild HS2 -
    1tph Leeds City / HS2 or Newcastle Central - York - Sheffeild - E Mids
    Join at: Birmingham (CZS / Intl) - OOC - Stratford Intl - Somwhere through the tunnel

    And of course the good sense of:
    1tph from Manchester & Birmingham to Gatwick via Heathrow
    1tph from Newcastle and Leeds to Gatwick via Heathrow

    Thats a nice comfortable 16tph... although some four track would mean many more services would be able to run...
     
    Last edited: 10 Nov 2011
  15. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Bear in mind that a large number of the fast trains run non-stop through Peterborough/ Grantham/ Newark/ Doncaster, I'm sure it won't be the end of their world when there's more space on the line for stoppers.

    Look at the places on main lines that lack a decent local service because the paths are eaten up by fast trains that don't stop there (like the recent ECML thread on here)
     
  16. Philip Elliott

    Philip Elliott Member

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    They're still won't be space for local trains to places like Tuxford if they're still Intercity services to Hull, Wakefield etc. If HS2 was about capacity then it would serve all the current key destinations.
     
  17. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    See above... Edited.
     
  18. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    All the key destinations?

    London
    Birmingham
    Manchester
    Leeds?

    Are they "key" enough?
     
  19. Philip Elliott

    Philip Elliott Member

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    Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Stoke, Rugby, Sandwell, Wolves, Wigan, Lancaster etc. are all 'key' stations on the West Coast. No-one is expecting HS2 to stop at non key locations such as Lockerbie or Rhyl! HS2 should be a replacement WCML not a tiny useless network serving very few.
     
  20. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    The existing Intercity stock will still have a use on decelerated long distance services on the "classic" lines, with additional stops added in. Someone posted the proposed WCML post-HS2 timetable frequency some time ago, and there is still a greater range of services on the WCML that will utilise the Pendolinos than you might think, albeit shorter overall journey lengths with a greater number of stops.

    As for the ECML, it's possible that there could be something along the lines of 1tph Leeds, 1tph York and 1tph Newcastle still using the ECML, with more calls at stations south of Doncaster. I think that by the time that stage 2 of HS2 opens, 2033 at the earliest, that it will be time for the 91s and mark 4s to be withdrawn, if they haven't been already by that stage, and they would probably be replaced by something of a more "regional" nature.

    It's likely that a few trains out of each fleet will become surplus to requirements, but it is not probable that the entirety of the WCML or ECML train fleets will be displaced because of HS2.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    But, in theory, with a more frequent service which will reduce possible waiting times at stations.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    There would be no point having a 225mph high speed line if it were to call at every station currently served by existing Intercity services. The intention of HS2 is not to replace the WCML like for like, but rather to connect the most influential cities across England (and into Scotland) and free up capacity so that the other towns and cities not served by HS2 can gain a more frequent service that will be better able to connect into long distance HS2 services. High speed rail requires larger catchment areas to be successful than local rail services do.
     
  21. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    There is already a fast line to these places, which will broadly continue.

    This is just about having an additional faster service to the bigger places.
     
  22. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    High Speed 2 should cause a radical change in the Crosscountry network. With services from Birmingham to North East England and Scotland routed via HS2, with trains starting at both Euston and Curzon Street, it is questionable as to whether there will still be such a great need for through Intercity (limited stop) XC services from south of Birmingham to the north of it, or whether the Birmingham to the South West and South Coast legs of the XC network could be incorporated into expanded Great Western and Chiltern franchises respectively.

    There would still be through trains on the Crosscountry network from south of Birmingham to the north of it in the form of regional services such as Cardiff to Nottingham and Bristol (and possibly Plymouth) to Manchester, etc.
     
  23. Philip Elliott

    Philip Elliott Member

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    Whilst you can increase frequency at Peterborough and Grantham you can't increase frequency to Wakefield and add in other locations because you are back to lack of capacity in the south. There are no regular end to end non stop trains that can be removed to create capacity.

    I'd hardly call Coventry going from 3tph to 1tph "broadly continuing". If these places do continue to have regular fast trains then there still won't be space for local trains to Polesworth, Atherstone etc.

    Since when is Wilmslow a "bigger place"?:roll: Runcorn will have high speed services but Stoke won't.

    You can still benefit from high speed and call at more stations - you split a line into A - B - C - D. Intermediate stations are served by loops with the first service runs from A-B via the loops and then only C and D. The second service runs fast from A-B then via loops to C and then fast to D. The third service calls at B & C only before going via loops to D plus you can still have A-B-C-D only. Now turn A,B,C,D into Euston, Rugby, Preston, Glasgow for example...

    Where are these wonderful interchanges that people can connect into? They don't exist...because someone from Alfreton really wants to go into Nottingham and then bus to Toton for high speed to London via Solihull:roll:
     
  24. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Under the current plans (Which are still quite vague north of Birmingham) it does seem like a huge opportunity to integrate the High Speed services into the local rail network has been missed by not locating some of the parkway stations on existing passenger rail routes. From Alfreton, a service down the Erewash Valley via Toton would acheive this. Or a new station at Trent Junction with a short rapid transit link to the new HS2 East Midlands Parkway. Both of which seem do-able.

    As for the route of HS2, if the journey time on HS2, via Birmingham, is comparable, or better, than that offered by the current service to London, then the majority of passengers won't care how the train gets there.
     
  25. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Was Wilmslow on my list?

    If you want to argue about Stoke v Runcorn then there are already plenty paradoxes with existing services- why does Wakefield get a significantly better London service than Bradford/ Huddersfield?

    Why does a small town in North Wales get a direct London service whilst much bigger places (Bolton/ Middlesbrough etc) get none?

    If you are going to do the "eye rolling" because there are some apparent paradoxes in the places that HS2 serves then you have to accept that any railway has these (e.g. you are complaining about a reduction in service to Grantham/ Newark, but they have a great London service compared to Lincoln).

    Easy to criticise HS2. Hard to come up with a proper alternative isn't it?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    As Sprinterguy points out, if a train is faster then it doesn't matter where it travels "via".

    If a service from Nottingham to London is faster routed via Solihull then fair enough. If I was driving from London to Leeds I wouldn't go through the middle of Grantham, but the train does. Since most railway lines are fairly curvy, and the routes taken by trains more so sometimes, arguing that HS2 is bad because it doesn't go in a straight line seems a pretty weak argument.
     
  26. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Routing all trains from London to the North East via HS2 causes enormous capacity issues at Euston, removes fast trains from Peterborough, Grantham, Newark and half a dozen other places and relegates Kings Cross to a secondary commuter station, hurting interchanges with continental services.

    (Any freed paths by eliminating 225 services on the ECML will be snapped up by FCC and the people north of Peterborough will just have to accept massively increased journey times for the convenience of short distance commuters, this would be seriously damaging to the economies of said towns in the East Midlands as the commuter belt shifts fifty miles further south)

    Saving ten minutes wait at Grantham so the train can cover the distance to KGX in two hours and not an hour and fourteen minutes is not a saving worth while.

    As to the arguments about how "HS2 is pointless unless it has no intermediate stops": the Japanese manage perfectly well although they do have trainsets that can accelerate from a stand to 170mph in three minutes.
     
  27. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    The North East HS2 service is the weaker, their concentrating on the benefits for stops in the Midlands and South Yorkshire. The reality is the ECML is already pretty fast with very few stops as it doesnt run through many urban areas so it will probably be little affected. They probably wont be switching services into stoppers like they will on the WCML.
     
  28. Philip Elliott

    Philip Elliott Member

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    No but is on the official HS2 documentation.

    There are plenty of alternative options out there. Pro HS2 people repeatedly claim HS2 is about capacity yet the design has clearly been designed for speed speed speed. Have you read Jim Steer's interview in RAIL? You can't get a more pro high speed rail than him yet he agrees with me about the 'Y' - it actually causes capacity headaches - there is no room for the likes of Chester, Hull, Bradford, Blackpool etc. to have high speed services so they will be back to being second class cities.

    If you want HS2 to relieve the MML, the answer is simple - put a junction in near Brackley and run up the GC to Whetstone (assuming south of Brackley is 4-track).
     
  29. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    The nature of the Great Northern services on the ECML will be dramatically changed after the full Thameslink programme is implemented by the end of the decade. The commuter services that we know now as First Capital Connect will have difficulty acquiring many more paths on the southern ECML, due to a limit on the maximum number of paths through the Thameslink core.
     
  30. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Its why its a good thing that until 2040 at least the line wont be full and existing capacity can cope. Theres problems with capacity IN the North East but again between the North East and Scotland no problem with a potential increase in subsidised services being turned down for lack of passengers and fare revenue to offset the costs.
     
  31. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    Could lessons be learnt from the positioning of the stations on the French TGV network as a benchmark for HS2?
     
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