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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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Kettledrum

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Apart from the Welwyn viaduct, all of the ECML as far as Peterborough can be increased to four tracks. North of Peterborough, the only section where ECML passenger trains and other DMUs share four tracks is the Stoke Tunnel area. If in the long-term these services are provided by newer EMUs, then this bottleneck can be relieved significantly. Headways can also be reduced between Doncaster and Leeds by faster stopping services. Freight can be diverted via Lincoln and much long-distance intermodal freight could run at night.

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On the ECML, there is also the Newark flat crossing where the East Coast Main Line and Lincoln to Nottingham lines cross. It places restrictions on the Nottingham to Lincoln capacity, and I imagine the ECML too. Apparently it is the fastest flat crossing in the UK, trains are allowed to cross at 100 mph.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2740089



2740089
 
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NotATrainspott

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Apart from the Welwyn viaduct, all of the ECML as far as Peterborough can be increased to four tracks. North of Peterborough, the only section where ECML passenger trains and other DMUs share four tracks is the Stoke Tunnel area. If in the long-term these services are provided by newer EMUs, then this bottleneck can be relieved significantly. Headways can also be reduced between Doncaster and Leeds by faster stopping services. Freight can be diverted via Lincoln and much long-distance intermodal freight could run at night. If the railway loses unsustainable freight traffic such as coal traffic but gains other traffic, there may not be an overall growth in freight traffic. Between York and Northallerton there is a straight section of four tracks, where faster running would presumably be possible. North of Northallerton, all stations (except around Newcastle) are served by long-distance services and away from the Newcastle-Gateshead conurbation, population is sparse, so there are no local services (except for immediately around Newcastle) to make room for. In any case HS2 would not serve this area. What then is to stop 225 km/h running on the ECML which would benefit Yorkshire, the North East and Scotland sooner than HS2?

As I said in my post, these upgrades will be subject to a law of diminishing returns. If we predicted that rail usage were going to flatline around 2026 after Phase 1 opens then these schemes would probably be enough to keep us going. However, we are not predicting this at all. How much extra capacity would all these upgrades create? How much money would be spent on these upgrades? How much disruption would be caused while these upgrades are being done? These are the questions which are the cause for Phase 2's eastern arm to Leeds and beyond as we know that they are not a particularly good investment for the long term.

It is also not pure speed which causes capacity problems along the route; it is the speed differentials between the fastest and slowest services. If additional capacity is needed sooner than Phase 2 then we might be able to increase the speeds of the slower services as more of them will be electric and as Bombardier are planning to sell a 125mph version of their new commuter/regional EMU. Freight will be much more difficult to increase the speeds though so there is still going to be a large differential in speed and thus inefficiencies.

Coal traffic is indeed unlikely to increase when we are closing the coal power stations. If other freight traffic grows to fill or less than fill this capacity then there is obviously no problem. If it grows more, what do you do? If you want to upgrade the route to four-track there will be an enormous number of night-time possessions across every one of the north/south rail links so it won't be able to travel then. We have to encourage freight to go by rail as much as is possible as otherwise today it is not difficult simply to keep it on the roads on lorries. If the price of road haulage increases dramatically due to road pricing or higher fuel prices, there will still be an awful lot of things needing sent around the country and if there's no space left on the rails, what's going to happen? The cost of essentials is going to go up. The economy will falter. If your goal is for a zero-growth economy, completely localised economy then this will be a win.

Perhaps an alternative or additional scheme to regenerate the North and increase capacity could be targeted sections of new line, for example between Manchester or Rochdale and Huddersfield and between Wakefield and Meadowhall, reusing part of the Wakefield - Cudworth line, aiming to provide a sub-30 minute journey time between Leeds and Manchester/Sheffield. Is the current programme of investment in northern railways enough? More routes could be electrified or 4-tracked where feasible sooner, new light rail schemes could be implemented in major cities.

There is an awful lot of rail investment planned for the North at the moment and we only know about the schemes for the next five or so years. Those five years have Network Rail running at full capacity on these various schemes. After that anything is possible, such as your suggestions if they have a suitable business case behind them. HS2 isn't going to reduce the need for rail investment in the North at all; it will increase it. The timescales needed to build schemes in the North will also be much less than for HS2 itself - they're going to build more and more per year as you go further North as things become much less expensive to do.

What would ETCS Level 3 mean? Can we based investment on developments which might or might not happen?

ETCS is the new European standard for rail signalling, all based around in-cab signalling for high speed international services. HS2 is designed for Level 2 ETCS, which is also the standard currently planned to be rolled out across the ECML from Kings Cross to south of Darlington and along the GWML, then being used to replace any life-expired signalling across the country. It is effectively a digital version of the signalling blocks used today, so trains won't be able to be any closer together but they can read signals going much faster. Level 3 changes the network to use moving-block signalling, where the trains are separated not by physical distances between virtual or real signals but by computer-controlled distances based on how long they need to come to a complete halt, plus an extra few percent. It will allow more trains to use the same tracks and points as there can be today but it has never yet actually been used on a mainline railway. Railtrack, the predecessor to Network Rail, promised Virgin Trains that they would install moving-block along the WCML, which was to allow the Pendolinos to run at their full 225km/h top speed. It was not possible in the late nineties/early noughties and it is still not possible today as nowhere in the world has it working on a mainline. Even installing it on a dedicated London Underground track - the Jubilee line - proved to be a disaster despite the fact that they had a single fleet of identical trains all running more or less the same timetable. However, the technology will improve over the next few decades so we may be able to use it to increase capacity on top of the plans for HS2, which do not require moving-block to work. If we try to rely upon moving-block to remove the need for HS2 then we will likely just end up with egg on our faces and another WCRM upgrade disaster.

If the price of kerosene increases hugely, will relatively small journey time savings be necessary to encourage modal shift?

If the price of kerosene skyrockets the price of air, coach and car travel will jump. The price of rail travel will not as electrification will increase more and more so it will become less dependent on fossil fuels. The people priced off the planes will travel by train instead and the capacity problems on rail will happen even quicker than were predicted by HS2 and the DfT. If this happens in 2022, we won't be that far away from the opening of Phase 1 so it would be problematic for the few years until it opens and then an accelerated Phase 2 is finished. If we wait until the fuel price soars, HS2 will still take many years to complete so we would have to suffer for much longer than if we just start building now.

I didn't suggest that digital technology might have slowed the growth of rail, rather than it has boost the growth of rail and now that it is established, this growth may slow down.

Perhaps. However, growth which slows down is still growth. Growth builds upon growth in previous years, like compound interest, so even with only 1% growth a year it will still rise dramatically in the end. The absolute worst case scenario for rail is that each person in the UK per year does no more travel than they do today. Then, our growing population will still cause the rail travel to increase year by year. When we invest in schemes in the North, we're going to make rail travel of all kinds more accessible than ever to the many tens of millions of people who live there. These schemes will only make more people want to travel and will make it only easier for people to access the intercity links which will need to be freed up by HS2.

If we do build HS2, and the passenger growth doesn't increase, there are still benefits for the people who do travel as it will be faster, more comfortable and more reliable.
If we don't build HS2, and the the passenger growth doesn't increase, we won't get these benefits for the people who travel today as by no means are our intercity links sufficient at the moment. The network will still be easy to disrupt and will still be slower.
If we do build HS2, and the passenger growth does increase, we will be able to meet the increased capacity needs without trouble as we had invested in the new infrastructure at the right time. Travel will be faster, more reliable and more comfortable for the people who do on both the new lines and the existing lines.
If we don't build HS2, and the passenger growth does increase, we will have an overstretched network which will be uncomfortable, unreliable, and still slow. If people are priced off the railways, even if the price of car and plane travel increases as well there will be more people who will continue to use these more environmentally damaging modes of transport as people will still want or need to travel.

Today it is cheaper to commute by easyJet from Barcelona to London than it is to get a flat there. HS2 is the only kind of scheme which can help to get rid of that kind of absurdity.

If the cost of living goes up hugely and incomes are squeezed, will people be able to afford extra rail travel whether it is cheaper than the alternatives or not or will they simply travel less? Has a range of socio-economic scenarios for HS2 been tested?

Our prediction is that people will continue to travel more. If that proves not to be the case, it is not the end of the world as we will have still delivered additional benefits to the rail network and additional investment to the economy. If we predict that people won't travel more, and we're wrong, then we will cause ourselves a whole series of problems. By building HS2 we're choosing the option with the least overall chance of being a failure. HS2 solves a whole series of problems in our country, not just pure numbers of seats on trains.

Pendolino seat occupancy is currently low (figures suggest around a third to a half), there will be capacity improvements on the existing line and growth is slowing.

How are these seat occupancy figures calculated? There will always be a time when fewer people are travelling and HS2 will be no different by our predictions. The Pendolinos are an InterCity only product where they can push off other people onto the London Midland routes instead at peak times - these are the trains which HS2 is really designed to relieve on the southern WCML. If there were one operator from Euston, as there is at Paddington, then you can see what effect this would have as people would insist on standing in Pendolino vestibules as they do on HSTs to Reading. After you increase all the LM services to 12 car 350s, where else is there to go? You could try to get Virgin to stop more services at the commuter end but this would heavily disadvantage their customers heading further north as their trains would become crammed and would be slower.

HS2 is the rare scheme which is supported by all three of the political parties. As a result, the press and other media give a huge amount of coverage to the anti folk despite the fact that they are very few in number but very loud and opinionated. I suppose it is democracy - otherwise there would be little critique of HS2 as there is no HM Opposition to attack it.
 

33Hz

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Oscar said:
the speed of HS2 (as energy consumption increases faster than speed as speed increases) and the building of the line will cause huge increases in greenhouse gas emissions
Really? Huge increases? Nothing suggests they will be huge, certainly no more than Conventional Rail due to each train being able to hold around 1000 people. It certainly isnt going to contribute to huge savings environmentally unless we start producing cleaner electricity then it will

This is a common falacy put about by the antis, but not helped by being stoked by some industry figures.

As others (including Alstom) have said, a state of the art VHST running at 300km/h is no worse than a class 390 at 200km/h.


Let's take the AGV as 2014 state of the art.

greengauge21-systra-highspeedrail-energyrequirements-by-speed.png



Even if the train is running at 400 km/h and hence using 23.92 kWh/km, an 11 coach AGV has 460 seats (in the configuration used by NTV in Italy), so this equates to 0.052 kWh per seat-km.

Taking the UK energy mix CO2 emissions of 430 g/kWh and 9% transmission loses, that equates to 24.4 g per seat-km.

If you compare this to a London - Edinburgh flight, a Boeing 737-800 produces 71.2 g per seat-km.


One obviously has to consider track construction emissions over the lifetime of the assets and divide this by passengers using each track segment, then compare with equivalent airport construction. Additionally, upstream extraction emissions for each mode's fuel need to be added.

If HSR is able to make a significant dent in the airlines' market share for London-Scotland journeys then the emissions reduction is significant. To do this, journey times need to be significantly better.

Current rail/air market share is about 18% / 82%. That needs to be reversed. As research by SNCF and others has shown, to get that reversal a point-to-point journey time of under 2.5 hours is required and 3h38 as predicted for post HS2 Ph2 doesn't cut it at all. The addressable market is around 700,000 pax per month.

This is exactly why antis and Greens calling for speeds to be reduced are missing the point. Yes, when viewed in isolation, of course an AGV running at 200 km/h will use less energy than when running at 400 km/h, but the competition is an airliner running at 800 km/h and that uses significantly more energy and fossil fuel than the AGV. The Greens need to consider the overall market and see that the public vote with their wallets as to what they prefer.

For further info, please see reports by Greengauge21, Network Rail and Zero Carbon World.
 
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NotATrainspott

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This is a common falacy put about by the antis, but not helped by being stoked by some industry figures.

As others (including Alstom) have said, a state of the art VHST running at 360km/h is no worse than a class 390 at 200km/h.


Let's take the AGV as 2014 state of the art.

greengauge21-systra-highspeedrail-energyrequirements-by-speed.png



Even if the train is running at 400 km/h and hence using 23.92 kWh/km, an 11 coach AGV has 460 seats (in the configuration used by NTV in Italy), so this equates to 0.052 kWh per seat-km.

Taking the UK energy mix CO2 emissions of 430 g/kWh and 9% transmission loses, that equates to 24.4 g per seat-km.

If you compare this to a London - Edinburgh flight, a Boeing 737-800 produces 71.2 g per seat-km.


One obviously has to consider track construction emissions over the lifetime of the assets and divide this by passengers using each track segment, then compare with equivalent airport construction. Additionally, upstream extraction emissions for each mode's fuel need to be added.

If HSR is able to make a significant dent in the airlines' market share for London-Scotland journeys then the emissions reduction is significant. To do this, journey times need to be significantly better.

Current rail/air market share is about 18% / 82%. That needs to be reversed. As research by SNCF and others has shown, to get that reversal a point-to-point journey time of 2.5 hours is required and 3h38 as predicted for post HS2 Ph2 doesn't cut it at all. The addressable market is around 700,000 pax per month.

This is exactly why antis and Greens calling for speeds to be reduced are missing the point. Yes, when viewed in isolation, of course an AGV running at 200 km/h will use less energy than when running at 400 km/h, but the competition is an airliner running at 800 km/h and that uses significantly more energy and fossil fuel than the AGV. The Greens need to consider the overall market and see that the public vote with their wallets as to what they prefer.

For further info, please see reports by Greengauge21, Network Rail and Zero Carbon World.

Precisely. And this is the reason why it is madness not to continue building the routes further to complete the 'Y' properly. And that is also why Phase 2 has the same classic-connection designs as Phase 1 has at Lichfield where the connecting line slews sharply to the side to connect on the WCML while leaving the path of the HSR continuation clear. If they are sensible then I can imagine they would also build in the first few metres of track for Phase 3 at the same time as they are also doing for the Phase 1/2 boundaries.

Between the Central Belt and the Preston/Lancashire interchange which was one of the options for the end segment of Phase 2, the trains would be able to go along at one of the highest average speeds in the entire world for HSR. The same design choices for Phase 1 & 2 will still apply where it is not worth reducing the design speed below 360-400km/h which will lead to a London-Central Belt journey time of around the same as London-York.
 

33Hz

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And furthermore, as Alstom has recently published, an AGV running on the French grid would give emissions of 2.2 g per passenger-km. They didn't say at what speed, but I can make an educated guess of 360 km/h.

Looked at another way, as the above Zero Carbon World report shows, you could offset an entire UK HSR system's energy use with 18 of the now common 5 Megawatt wind turbines.

But the main point is this: It would be great if the grid is cleaned up and HSR emissions only benefit from that, but HSR still offers a significant improvement over the competition with today's grid mix.
 
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Oscar

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My point about increasing energy prices is that:
- the cost of car and air travel is likely to increase a lot faster than that of rail.
- domestic air is currently a small market and a large shift from domestic air to rail is likely to be manageable without HS2 (the main shift would occur on routes to/from Scotland or perhaps Cornwall and HS2 does not address (nor does it need to)) capacity issues north of Manchester/Yorkshire.
- at present, journey times play a huge role in choice of mode but price is likely to play a much greater role in the future, by the time HS2 is completed it may not be necessary to increase speeds to create modal shift.
- most car journeys are over short distances and rail already has the lion's share of the London markets, so the greatest potential for modal shift is elsewhere. That is where capacity needs to be created to enable this modal shift to take place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the ECML, there is also the Newark flat crossing where the East Coast Main Line and Lincoln to Nottingham lines cross. It places restrictions on the Nottingham to Lincoln capacity, and I imagine the ECML too. Apparently it is the fastest flat crossing in the UK, trains are allowed to cross at 100 mph.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2740089



2740089

I meant to mention this, a fly-over urgently needs to be built.

Renewable energy also desperately needs to be developed, but it unfortunately isn't and won't be the main source of electricity in the National Grid in the short to medium term and in the long term still carries some problems (noise, space).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If your goal is for a zero-growth economy, completely localised economy then this will be a win.

This would be my aim as I have yet to be convinced that something else is realistic within this century given the need to reduce emissions immediately, so we'll have to disagree here.
 
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HSTEd

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Zero Growth economies have some rather horrendous implications, it turns advancing oneself to improve your quality of life into a zero sum game (in other words, if you are better off someone must be worse off to allow it).

It is likely to increase social stratrification between permanent 'haves' and 'have nots'.

As to localised economies, I would much prefer a Britain where people can rapidly and cheaply traverse large distances, on order of the entire size of the United Kingdom. 'Localised economy' seems to stink of the idea of forcing people to remain near their house which is nasty socially and economically in my opinion.
In other words, turning the entire UK into 'Super London'.

But I know I am in the minority on both counts.
 
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33Hz

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My point about increasing energy prices is that:
- the cost of car and air travel is likely to increase a lot faster than that of rail.

- at present, journey times play a huge role in choice of mode but price is likely to play a much greater role in the future, by the time HS2 is completed it may not be necessary to increase speeds to create modal shift.

The cost of car travel is likely to fall as more efficient vehicles start to gain market share. If you solely extrapolate today's costs to twenty years out, you will get a false picture.

Airlines have shown that they have been able to innovate to produce new pricing models and keep prices low. There is a long way to go before price alone produces a significant shift to rail. I know committed environmentalists who will fly Scotland to London because the train takes too long and/or is too expensive.

- domestic air is currently a small market and a large shift from domestic air to rail is likely to be manageable without HS2 (the main shift would occur on routes to/from Scotland or perhaps Cornwall and HS2 does not address (nor does it need to) capacity issues north of Manchester/Yorkshire.

As I said above, rail has 18% of this market so if domestic air is small then we have a lot, lot less! Makes you wonder why Virgin and East Coast bother.

The potential new London-Scotland market is 700,000 pax per month. That's 30 full non-stop trains per day each way in addition to existing markets and other new journey pairs that could be addressed.

But it's a chicken-and-egg. Without the journey time improvements, the pax won't come but if they don't come then we don't need the capacity. The question is: Do the powers that be want to change the status quo?
 

Oscar

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Reply to Yorkshire Bear's ECML comments:

Why not develop the Leamside Line for freight?

Improving acceleration as well as top speed can increase headways, though I agree that Leeds - Doncaster stoppers are probably quite good already.

Does the market really want non-stop London services? I imagine that the market would want Leeds - Wakefield/Newcastle - Darlington - York (-Doncaster) - Peterborough (-Stevenage) - London services if connections at Peterborough to/from Norwich, Cambridge, Stansted and possibly Leicester and connections at Stevenage to/from FCC services were optimised. 2 tph from Leeds and 2 tph from Newcastle could run fast and two services could run the fast services and 2 tph could serve intermediate locations. The two-hourly stopping services from York are very busy south of Newark and poor connections may be suppressing demand. In my limited experience, London services may well arrive quieter. Peterborough and Stevenage in particular are key intermediate stops as they also relieve FCC services. Services from York/Leeds with one or two stops can still achieve sub-2 hour timings from York or just over 2 hours from Leeds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The cost of car travel is likely to fall as more efficient vehicles start to gain market share. If you solely extrapolate today's costs to twenty years out, you will get a false picture.

Airlines have shown that they have been able to innovate to produce new pricing models and keep prices low. There is a long way to go before price alone produces a significant shift to rail. I know committed environmentalists who will fly Scotland to London because the train takes too long and/or is too expensive.



As I said above, rail has 18% of this market so if domestic air is small then we have a lot, lot less! Makes you wonder why Virgin and East Coast bother.

The potential new London-Scotland market is 700,000 pax per month. That's 30 full non-stop trains per day each way in addition to existing markets and other new journey pairs that could be addressed.

But it's a chicken-and-egg. Without the journey time improvements, the pax won't come but if they don't come then we don't need the capacity. The question is: Do the powers that be want to change the status quo?

30 full non-stop trains suggests one additional hourly service on each of the ECML and WCML. By keeping Air Passenger Duty very low compared to taxes on petrol/diesel, the government is encouraging cheap air travel. By charging for MOT/insurance/Road Tax as one off amounts rather than providing these services to all car owners and charging for them through tax on petrol, the government is encouraging perceived cheap car travel.
 
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NotATrainspott

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My point about increasing energy prices is that:
- the cost of car and air travel is likely to increase a lot faster than that of rail.
Yes, it is. People are going to want to travel by rail instead of those so there will be an increase in passenger numbers from these people. We have lots of schemes around the country which are trying to manage this capacity increase; the scheme for intercity travel is HS2.
- domestic air is currently a small market and a large shift from domestic air to rail is likely to be manageable without HS2 (the main shift would occur on routes to/from Scotland or perhaps Cornwall and HS2 does not address (nor does it need to) capacity issues north of Manchester/Yorkshire.
HS2 is the first step of building that dedicated line to Scotland which will destroy the airline competition. If we built HS2 for 300km/h operation with the line going through Heathrow, Milton Keynes, Coventry, Stoke etc then it will make it a lot harder to capture the air travel market further north. When we extend to Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow we simply add a Phase 3 onto what we are already building as the rest of the network is ready for HSR to those places. If we built HS2 as a classic route instead to serve Birmingham, or if we spend a huge amount of money to upgrade the CML & WCML, we will still need a new route to serve Scotland and the NE. We might as well build the two routes together as their purposes are not mutually exclusive.
- at present, journey times play a huge role in choice of mode but price is likely to play a much greater role in the future, by the time HS2 is completed it may not be necessary to increase speeds to create modal shift.
But there needs to be the capacity to take on that modal shift. If we build the network for slower speeds then it won't be able to compete with air once we extend it further north. Which is going to happen. Just look at the ridiculous HS2 curve at Bamfurlong and say the extension isn't happening.
- most car journeys are over short distances and rail already has the lion's share of the London markets, so the greatest potential for modal shift is elsewhere. That is where capacity needs to be created to enable this modal shift to take place.
Which is why the Pacers are going to the scrapheap and being replaced with much longer and faster 345/380/387/700s well before Phase 1 is even going to be tested. If you're not going to accept the massive amount of capacity enhancement happening before and simultaneously with HS2 around the country in the cities HS2 will serve then there's something very wrong with you. Rail North will have the same strive for reopenings as the Scottish Parliament has had with Larkhall, Alloa, Airdrie-Bathgate and Borders.
I meant to mention this, a fly-over urgently needs to be built.
Yes. How much will that cost? How much will that disrupt the ECML during construction? How much additional capacity will it bring? It's not that we don't believe these schemes are going to happen but they are alone not enough to cope with the capacity increase needed for the future. They will be just as or more beneficial to the post-HS2 services as they are now but with the benefit that after HS2, closing the ECML temporarily won't shut off Newcastle and the North from London.
Renewable energy also desperately needs to be developed, but it unfortunately isn't and won't be the main source of electricity in the National Grid in the short to medium term and in the long term still carries some problems (noise, space).
Burning aviation fuel at a power station and using it to power HSR is a lot more efficient than burning it at 30,000ft. Same with petrol or diesel in cars or buses or in diesel trains.
 

Oscar

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Zero Growth economies have some rather horrendous implications, it turns advancing oneself to improve your quality of life into a zero sum game (in other words, if you are better off someone must be worse off to allow it).

It is likely to increase social stratrification between permanent 'haves' and 'have nots'.

A zero growth economy and the increased stratification already seems to be happening, perhaps we need to tackle the distance between the "haves" and "have nots".
 

HSTEd

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A zero growth economy and the increased stratification already seems to be happening, perhaps we need to tackle the distance between the "haves" and "have nots".

How?
The Haves will never permit themselves to be made poorer disproportionately to the Have Nots.

The only solution is economic growth and advanced technologies.
 

NotATrainspott

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Does the market really want non-stop London services? I imagine that the market would want Leeds - Wakefield/Newcastle - Darlington - York (-Doncaster) - Peterborough (-Stevenage) - London services if connections at Peterborough to/from Norwich, Cambridge, Stansted and possibly Leicester and connections at Stevenage to/from FCC services were optimised. 2 tph from Leeds and 2 tph from Newcastle could run fast and two services could run the fast services and 2 tph could serve intermediate locations. The two-hourly stopping services from York are very busy south of Newark and poor connections may be suppressing demand. In my limited experience, London services may well arrive quieter. Peterborough and Stevenage in particular are key intermediate stops as they also relieve FCC services. Services from York/Leeds with one or two stops can still achieve sub-2 hour timings from York or just over 2 hours from Leeds.
People in Glasgow or Edinburgh or Newcastle or Carlisle etc want to go to London. There are enough of them that EC has no problems at all running non-stop to York and VT goes non-stop to Warrington Bank Quay. There are also people who want to go to intermediate destinations but there are not enough of them to run dedicated services for city pairs, so they travel on slower trains which have to stop in many more places to still be profitable - e.g. the GLC/EDB to Euston via New Street stops in several times as many places as the direct train does. These trains can still exist post-HS2 as we're not going to put buffer stops halfway along the WCML/ECML to segregate it. There is also enough capacity on the northern parts of HS2 and its future extensions to run city pair trains like Newcastle to Birmingham or Glasgow to Manchester.
30 full non-stop trains suggests one additional hourly service on each of the ECML and WCML. By keeping Air Passenger Duty very low compared to taxes on petrol/diesel, the government is encouraging cheap air travel. By charging for MOT/insurance/Road Tax as one off amounts rather than providing these services to all car owners and charging for them through tax on petrol, the government is encouraging perceived cheap car travel.

And there is capacity for another non-stop Glasgow/Edinburgh service how? Extending a train to Manchester or Birmingham will 1. make it slower than a direct one (which will have a big impact on if it can compete with air for Scotland-London services - the GLC-BHM-EUS stoppers take five and a half hours and aren't designed for end-to-end travellers as they're overtaken by the direct ones. It also won't help if the trains leaving Euston are filled with Manchester passengers as then where do the Glasgow ones go? You can't double-up 11 car Pendolinos and there are no extra paths for a non-stop service. HS2 is what provides the capacity to allow that.
 

Oscar

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The Hitchin fly-over cost £47m, why should a Newark fly-over cost much more? Network Rail is improving its ability to carry out engineering works without disrupting passenger services, should I appreciate that in this case there would be some significant disruption to the ECML if works are done to the ECML rather than the Nottingham-Lincoln route.
 
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HSTEd

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The Hitchin flyover is a single track job.

Additionally the A46 is going to cause some significant issues if you want to keep the gradient within reason.
 

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The Hitchin fly-over cost £47m, why should a Newark fly-over cost much more. Network Rail is improving its ability to carry out engineering works without disrupting passenger services, should I appreciate that in this case there would be some significant disruption to the ECML if works are done to the ECML rather than the Nottingham-Lincoln route.

Ground conditions very very very different, larger bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Reply to Yorkshire Bear's ECML comments:

Why not develop the Leamside Line for freight?

I did actually suggest that as possible in my response to you. And i consider i likely.
 

Oscar

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People in Glasgow or Edinburgh or Newcastle or Carlisle etc want to go to London. There are enough of them that EC has no problems at all running non-stop to York and VT goes non-stop to Warrington Bank Quay. There are also people who want to go to intermediate destinations but there are not enough of them to run dedicated services for city pairs, so they travel on slower trains which have to stop in many more places to still be profitable - e.g. the GLC/EDB to Euston via New Street stops in several times as many places as the direct train does. These trains can still exist post-HS2 as we're not going to put buffer stops halfway along the WCML/ECML to segregate it. There is also enough capacity on the northern parts of HS2 and its future extensions to run city pair trains like Newcastle to Birmingham or Glasgow to Manchester.


And there is capacity for another non-stop Glasgow/Edinburgh service how? Extending a train to Manchester or Birmingham will 1. make it slower than a direct one (which will have a big impact on if it can compete with air for Scotland-London services - the GLC-BHM-EUS stoppers take five and a half hours and aren't designed for end-to-end travellers as they're overtaken by the direct ones. It also won't help if the trains leaving Euston are filled with Manchester passengers as then where do the Glasgow ones go? You can't double-up 11 car Pendolinos and there are no extra paths for a non-stop service. HS2 is what provides the capacity to allow that.

As I said, making one or two stops between York/Leeds and London only means the journey time is a few minutes longer. I believe there is significant spare capacity on a lot of the Pendolinos and direct York - London services. The IEP (perhaps not the best option for a new train build) will offer increased seating capacity on the ECML. The ECML currently runs 7 tph in some hours: this could mean 2 tph Edinburgh - London (i.e. an extra Edinburgh service), 1 tph Newcastle - London, 2 tph Leeds - London and 2 tph stopping Doncaster - London and then possibly to/from Hull/Leeds/GC destinations. Open access is also a questionable use of capacity as passenger numbers are often not high and these services prevent extra services to/from core destinations, where connections to/from other locations could be optimised. How great are the loadings on VT's Scotland - London services? Perhaps reducing headways by diverting all freight onto the S&C (where shortening signalling sections or building loops could mean more freight could be accommodated) and increasing the top speed of the Manchester - Scotland services could yield capacity improvements.
 

NotATrainspott

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The Hitchin fly-over cost £47m, why should a Newark fly-over cost much more. Network Rail is improving its ability to carry out engineering works without disrupting passenger services, should I appreciate that in this case there would be some significant disruption to the ECML if works are done to the ECML rather than the Nottingham-Lincoln route.

The Newark flyover will have to be built very close to existing rail lines whereas in Hitchin most of the work could happen reasonably far away from the railway. At Newark there is a canal/river and a major road very close to the site of the intervention, along with a curve between the two lines. It is likely that the works would cause large disruption to the Lincoln-Nottingham line whereas at Hitchin there was no reason to disrupt the existing services running to Cambridge. I am not a civil engineer so I do not know for certain how much it would cost but it would be without question more than the Hitchin flyover.
 

Oscar

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Ground conditions very very very different, larger bridge.

I don't have your engineering expertise, do you think building a fly-over or underpass for the Nottingham - Lincoln line would be a better solution? How much do you think a Newark fly-over would cost? How long would the disruption last?
 
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tbtc

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The Hitchin fly-over cost £47m, why should a Newark fly-over cost much more

The terrain at Newark is a nightmare - the railway is competing for space with the A46 and a kink in the River Trent - it wouldn't be cheap to do a two track fly over there. Useful, very useful, but not cheap.
 

YorkshireBear

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I don't have your engineering expertise, do you think building a fly-over or underpass for the Nottingham - Lincoln line would be a better solution? How much do you think a Newark fly-over would cost? How long would the disruption last?

Underpass would be disastrous, look at the location to the river! It would be flooded in all by drought conditions! It is and always will be very very saturated ground which makes construction more complex and also requires larger foundations. You try to avoid digging into the water table wherever possible.

Therefore has to be flyover, having looked in detail at the gradients they are possible, just. Although i think electrification would become a more pressing concern for the line. Especially for freight.

I think 150 million would be the upper limit of the cost. The huge increase is because the more complicated ground conditions as well as working alongside a river, the A46 and keeping the Nottingham Lincoln line open.
 

Kettledrum

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Underpass would be disastrous, look at the location to the river! It would be flooded in all by drought conditions! It is and always will be very very saturated ground which makes construction more complex and also requires larger foundations. You try to avoid digging into the water table wherever possible.

Therefore has to be flyover, having looked in detail at the gradients they are possible, just. Although i think electrification would become a more pressing concern for the line. Especially for freight.

.

Could that crossover really be safely electrified? The ECML is electrified over the crossing, and that's fine because you have diesel trains running under the wires when the trains from Nottingham to Lincoln cross the ECML.

But try having wires going on the Nottingham to Lincoln line as well, and things could literally get in a tangle.

Perhaps yet another argument for the Eastern arm of HS2, is that it makes a solution to the flat crossing at Newark much less pressing.
 

Oscar

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Would a Newark fly-over mean a fly-over for the ECML or the Nottingham-Lincoln line? £150 million sounds like small change compared to the cost of HS2 - given that this is a particularly expensive scheme, it does show that a large number of incremental schemes could be implemented for much less than the cost of HS2. Would an extra path be possible on the ECML if a Newark fly-over was built? (Scotland?)
 

NotATrainspott

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Would a Newark fly-over mean a fly-over for the ECML or the Nottingham-Lincoln line? £150 million sounds like small change compared to the cost of HS2 - given that this is a particularly expensive scheme, it does show that a large number of incremental schemes could be implemented for much less than the cost of HS2. Would an extra path be possible on the ECML if a Newark fly-over was built? (Scotland?)

A large number of incremental schemes which will add 25% extra capacity on the existing lines at a lot more than 25% the cost of HS2, which creates entire new lines leading to nearer 100% capacity increase. Getting rid of the Newark flat crossing will make another part of the route the bottleneck - it alone isn't going to get you more paths, longer trains or much faster speeds.
 

Chris125

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...it does show that a large number of incremental schemes could be implemented for much less than the cost of HS2.

Of course increasing capacity on the existing network is cheaper in the short term, but as the WCRM showed the risks are far higher, the disruption to passengers far greater, you achieve a fraction of the capacity and wider economic benefits with no game-changing improvements, and you are still relying on essentially Victorian infrastructure that continues to age and deteriorate.

Quite simply, HS2 is the most cost effective solution to our long term capacity needs IMHO.

Chris
 
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YorkshireBear

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A large number of incremental schemes which will add 25% extra capacity on the existing lines at a lot more than 25% the cost of HS2, which creates entire new lines leading to nearer 100% capacity increase. Getting rid of the Newark flat crossing will make another part of the route the bottleneck - it alone isn't going to get you more paths, longer trains or much faster speeds.

Yeah it is a lot less than HS2. But it hardly achieves anything in terms of what HS2 can achieve.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could that crossover really be safely electrified? The ECML is electrified over the crossing, and that's fine because you have diesel trains running under the wires when the trains from Nottingham to Lincoln cross the ECML.

But try having wires going on the Nottingham to Lincoln line as well, and things could literally get in a tangle.

Perhaps yet another argument for the Eastern arm of HS2, is that it makes a solution to the flat crossing at Newark much less pressing.

If you note my sentence. Electrification after the flyover has been built to help with gradients.
 

edwin_m

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Would a Newark fly-over mean a fly-over for the ECML or the Nottingham-Lincoln line? £150 million sounds like small change compared to the cost of HS2 - given that this is a particularly expensive scheme, it does show that a large number of incremental schemes could be implemented for much less than the cost of HS2. Would an extra path be possible on the ECML if a Newark fly-over was built? (Scotland?)

It would be raising the Nottingham-Lincoln line, since raising the ECML would affect its crossing under the A46 immediately to the south. There's enough length do do this before the next overbridge is reached towards Nottingham (longer distance available towards Lincoln). As there were no obvious problems building a similar bridge and embankment for the A46 then I'm sure a solution exists to any ground conditions issues.
 

Oscar

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A large number of incremental schemes which will add 25% extra capacity on the existing lines at a lot more than 25% the cost of HS2, which creates entire new lines leading to nearer 100% capacity increase. Getting rid of the Newark flat crossing will make another part of the route the bottleneck - it alone isn't going to get you more paths, longer trains or much faster speeds.

This is of course based on the assumption that we need hugely increased long-distance capacity in the long term and I accept that we disagree on this. Taking the view that 25% extra London main line capacity will be sufficient (which means more than 25% growth, making use of the spare capacity currently available) and that if it isn't we should stifle discretionary travel by restructuring fares, 50% of the cost of HS2 may be reasonable, as it would allow the other 50% to be spent on other schemes. The Network Rail strategic alternatives report showed than £20bn of investment in the classic network would increase capacity hugely, though obviously not as much as HS2.

I would like a thorough investigation into alternatives to HS2 testing a variety of economic scenarios, such as no-growth or contraction and large scale modal shift from car or air.

I would also suggest that to encourage modal shift and discourage discretionary travel Off-Peak fares should be reduced and Advance tickets should be withdrawn. To deal with capacity issues, booking engines could highlight to passengers how busy a train is likely to be, as is currently done in Switzerland. There could also be a National Railcard scheme. The upfront costs of motoring would increase greatly simultaneously. This would mean huge increases in rail patronage in areas not covered by HS2, such as local or Cross Country services and more minor increases in long distance patronage. A national multi-modal timetable plan would ensure connectivity across the country. If this does not happen in an organised way the change will come as a shock and the rail system will not be able to cope with it - climate change and population growth are likely to cause huge food production problems and natural disasters and oil will become much scarcer very soon (currently only a few percentage of UK energy comes from renewable sources).

I accept that we disagree on our visions of the future.
 

NotATrainspott

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This is of course based on the assumption that we need hugely increased long-distance capacity in the long term and I accept that we disagree on this. Taking the view that 25% extra London main line capacity will be sufficient (which means more than 25% growth, making use of the spare capacity currently available) and that if it isn't we should stifle discretionary travel by restructuring fares, 50% of the cost of HS2 may be reasonable, as it would allow the other 50% to be spent on other schemes. The Network Rail strategic alternatives report showed than £20bn of investment in the classic network would increase capacity hugely, though obviously not as much as HS2.
This 25% growth will not happen overnight but it will not take very long to happen in the HS2 timescale. At 1% growth of rail travel per year, in 20 years there will have been a 22% increase in passenger numbers. [The calculation is 1.01^20] Our current growth figures are well above this. If 5% growth were continued, there would be a 165% increase in passenger numbers over 20 years. That is a very high figure but it does put into context how little growth there needs to be over the next two decades such that the small incremental upgrades won't be able to cope. HS2 provides an enormous increase in capacity as it is a completely new line which allows an entirely parallel timetable to happen with the existing lines - there will be more trains than there have ever been able to be before.

Growth up to now has been provided for because of the largesse of the Victorians but we're running out of that and we need to start building new lines to continue this growth. Reopening lines allows a small amount of extra capacity but the majority of the routes we closed had something wrong with them which would require large expense today to fix - enough to make an entirely new line a better prospect. The most striking example is probably the Great Central which was not the magical solution to problems that it is often hyped up to be. The most capacity strained area today is around London and the Great Central's magical idea of how to get into London effectively has it running along the Metropolitan line. The wondrous ideas of a European connection involved trains running through the Circle line! In the same way, the southern part of the Waverley line was slow, twisting and steep. The money to reopen it to mainline standards would be better spent on a new straight and GC-gauge high speed route designed for the modern traffic patterns rather than ones from the 1800's.
I would like a thorough investigation into alternatives to HS2 testing a variety of economic scenarios, such as no-growth or contraction and large scale modal shift from car or air.

The DfT have put up hundreds of documents about every single aspect of HS2 - economic, environmental and engineering. A no-growth economy is not the intention of this government or of any and is reasonably unlikely to happen for a few centuries yet. What is a no-growth economy for you then? Does that mean technological and cultural stagnation?

HS2 Phase 1 and 2 provide the capacity which will allow modal shift. if the cost of motoring and air travel doubled overnight, the growth in passenger numbers on the railway would be stratospheric. if we don't build HS2, there won't be any room for this growth. When the current route is extended to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle then air will be as uncompetitive as it is today on the London-Paris/Brussels market. Rail only has about a fifth of the market today - there is absolutely not enough room on the existing routes without HS2 if this doubled to even two fifths as we can't extend the trains any more and we can't run any more of them, unless you stop serving the markets like Birmingham where car travel is still a possibility.

I would also suggest that to encourage modal shift and discourage discretionary travel Off-Peak fares should be reduced and Advance tickets should be withdrawn. To deal with capacity issues, booking engines could highlight to passengers how busy a train is likely to be, as is currently done in Switzerland. There could also be a National Railcard scheme.
It doesn't help telling people how busy a train will be if they are all going to be busy. When you book online, you normally reserve a seat so it isn't really a problem if all the others are going to be full or not. Yes, you can get rid of the cheap advance tickets, which will discourage quite a bit of discretionary travel but the marginal environmental cost of more people being on a train which has to run anyway is minimal. If you remove these fares there will still be a lot of people who will travel anyway, and if the remaining fares are more expensive than car travel then it will just encourage people to drive more. A National Railcard would just make travel cheaper and so more people would do it, discretionary or not, so I don't get your point - it's still a nice idea though.

The upfront costs of motoring would increase greatly simultaneously. This would mean huge increases in rail patronage in areas not covered by HS2, such as local or Cross Country services and more minor increases in long distance patronage.

The local services you describe are being upgraded now with rolling electrification. However, they will still face the issue that they have to compete with paths on the existing routes with intercity trains. HS2 removes this competition which will allow a huge amount more local and regional services to run than would be possible just with improvements made to our existing north/south IC rail lines. CrossCountry is one of the biggest beneficiaries of HS2 as the eastern arm of Phase 2 will relieve the entire Newcastle-Birmingham section. We cannot run many more services today because the cross-country routes are largely double track and run through a large number of small towns. If we replace the 4/5 car voyagers with the longest possible length of IEP this would be a start but still it would not be possible to serve more locations.

A national multi-modal timetable plan would ensure connectivity across the country. If this does not happen in an organised way the change will come as a shock and the rail system will not be able to cope with it - climate change and population growth are likely to cause huge food production problems and natural disasters and oil will become much scarcer very soon (currently only a few percentage of UK energy comes from renewable sources).
The national multi-modal timetable plan is a different issue to the need for HS2 itself. The Swiss have no high speed rail routes yet they manage one just fine, but their entire rail network is designed around these timetables. Such a timetable would not be possible just yet for Britain just because our rail network is so heavily congested at its main hubs. HS2 gives us the chance to separate out the most difficult trains to path onto their own infrastructure, designed for them from the scratch, which will then be able to connect to existing services across the country. HS2 is the start of the organised process in which we can get rid of the idiosyncrasies of our Victorian rail network, designed for a Britain which has long since passed, and make it suitable for our modern and future Britain.

Oddly enough HS2 is also designed to be resilient against storms and other natural phenomena in a way the current network cannot. If you have a look at the Environmental Statement for Phase 1 on the DfT website you will be able to see all the environmental work being done along the route to mitigate the effects of flooding etc. it will be extremely difficult to do the same amount of work on our existing intercity lines as they would require entire embankments and cuttings to be redesigned, which would cost billions for little immediate benefit. It is also entirely electrified, as will our rail network at large, so will be able to be powered by whatever we want. It will rebuild the backbone of Britain around a highly resilient, energy-independent and highly efficient mode of transport.

Population growth isn't going to continue forever. There is a finite limit on the number of humans who can be supported on this earth but it is likely that the human population increases will taper out well before this. The massive improvement in quality of life for Africa, China and Asia will educate and medicate their populations in such a way that the birthrate will come down to what we see today in the Western world. We are producing more calories per square kilometre of land than we ever have before and we will continue to improve this. Famines are to a large extent political as we do produce well in excess of the food we need for humanity today - North Korea's population starve simply because of their totalitarian government while in Africa starvation is used as a means of war and ethnic cleansing.

I accept that we disagree on our visions of the future.

You have an awfully pessimistic view. What we are doing today to this world is by no means what we should be but you underestimate the ability of humans to enact change, not only for the worse but for the better. Only a bit more than a hundred years ago the idea of flight itself was unthinkable but today we have probes leaving our solar system in the spirit of human ingenuity and progress. Think of all the technological innovation of the 20th Century and how much faster we are progressing now.
 

Oscar

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This 25% growth will not happen overnight but it will not take very long to happen in the HS2 timescale. At 1% growth of rail travel per year, in 20 years there will have been a 22% increase in passenger numbers. [The calculation is 1.01^20] Our current growth figures are well above this. If 5% growth were continued, there would be a 165% increase in passenger numbers over 20 years. That is a very high figure but it does put into context how little growth there needs to be over the next two decades such that the small incremental upgrades won't be able to cope. HS2 provides an enormous increase in capacity as it is a completely new line which allows an entirely parallel timetable to happen with the existing lines - there will be more trains than there have ever been able to be before.

Growth up to now has been provided for because of the largesse of the Victorians but we're running out of that and we need to start building new lines to continue this growth. Reopening lines allows a small amount of extra capacity but the majority of the routes we closed had something wrong with them which would require large expense today to fix - enough to make an entirely new line a better prospect. The most striking example is probably the Great Central which was not the magical solution to problems that it is often hyped up to be. The most capacity strained area today is around London and the Great Central's magical idea of how to get into London effectively has it running along the Metropolitan line. The wondrous ideas of a European connection involved trains running through the Circle line! In the same way, the southern part of the Waverley line was slow, twisting and steep. The money to reopen it to mainline standards would be better spent on a new straight and GC-gauge high speed route designed for the modern traffic patterns rather than ones from the 1800's.

While there is strong growth in rail travel now, I would be much less confident about the trend in 10-20 years time. I appreciate that offering too much capacity may be preferable to offering too little, but I wouldn't consider it responsible to provide more capacity to facilitate additional travel rather than modal shift. A shrinkage in the overall market for travel and modal shift to rail would mean only moderate requirements for increased capacity on the routes mainly affected by HS2, where rail's market share is strong (excluding Scotland, where perhaps two extra trains from each of Edinburgh and Glasgow using paths gained from some incremental improvements could cover the market shift from air and road).

The DfT have put up hundreds of documents about every single aspect of HS2 - economic, environmental and engineering. A no-growth economy is not the intention of this government or of any and is reasonably unlikely to happen for a few centuries yet. What is a no-growth economy for you then? Does that mean technological and cultural stagnation?

HS2 Phase 1 and 2 provide the capacity which will allow modal shift. if the cost of motoring and air travel doubled overnight, the growth in passenger numbers on the railway would be stratospheric. if we don't build HS2, there won't be any room for this growth. When the current route is extended to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle then air will be as uncompetitive as it is today on the London-Paris/Brussels market. Rail only has about a fifth of the market today - there is absolutely not enough room on the existing routes without HS2 if this doubled to even two fifths as we can't extend the trains any more and we can't run any more of them, unless you stop serving the markets like Birmingham where car travel is still a possibility.

I would consider a no-growth economy to be one in which consumption of goods and services does not increase. Consumption may alter, as people consume different goods and services to previously. The focus would be on providing the goods and services more efficiently in terms of use of energy and resources. Travel would be provided more efficiency through a shift to public or green transport, through the increasing energy efficiency of all modes and a switch to renewable energy. I would question the notion that increased consumption leads to increased happiness or somehow a better life.

The load factor on WCML trains is low, capacity could be provided by reducing headways as mentioned previously. Flighting of two long-distance trains also means more capacity for other services. On the ECML there is also a lot of room for growth and open access operators often using short trains do not seem to make the best use of capacity.

It doesn't help telling people how busy a train will be if they are all going to be busy. When you book online, you normally reserve a seat so it isn't really a problem if all the others are going to be full or not. Yes, you can get rid of the cheap advance tickets, which will discourage quite a bit of discretionary travel but the marginal environmental cost of more people being on a train which has to run anyway is minimal. If you remove these fares there will still be a lot of people who will travel anyway, and if the remaining fares are more expensive than car travel then it will just encourage people to drive more. A National Railcard would just make travel cheaper and so more people would do it, discretionary or not, so I don't get your point - it's still a nice idea though.
Discouraging quite a bit of discretionary travel would mean quite a bit of additional capacity for modal shift. The remaining fares would imperatively not be more expensive than car travel and this could perhaps best be achieved by amending the way car travel is priced. A National Railcard would make travel cheaper, but not as cheap as low Advance fares. It could perhaps be an alternative to reducing Off-Peak fares significantly - the fares would effectively be reduced by the existence of the Railcard, but the railways would receive a lump sum up front from passengers buying the Railcard which most would not calculate as part of their journey cost, as most do not perceive running a car as part of their car journey cost. The Railcard would also mean that visitors to Britain who do not support our railway through taxation and often have little option but to use it pay around 50% more (assuming 34% discount). I see that the points you make are valid however and even railways without extensive yield-management systems have not limited discretionary travel, which perhaps suggests that a change in public transport pricing imperatively needs to happen simultaneously to changes in the pricing of car travel.


The local services you describe are being upgraded now with rolling electrification. However, they will still face the issue that they have to compete with paths on the existing routes with intercity trains. HS2 removes this competition which will allow a huge amount more local and regional services to run than would be possible just with improvements made to our existing north/south IC rail lines. CrossCountry is one of the biggest beneficiaries of HS2 as the eastern arm of Phase 2 will relieve the entire Newcastle-Birmingham section. We cannot run many more services today because the cross-country routes are largely double track and run through a large number of small towns. If we replace the 4/5 car voyagers with the longest possible length of IEP this would be a start but still it would not be possible to serve more locations.

How many more services could be provided by (re-)building sections of four track line where practicable for fast services to overtake? The government doesn't seem to have made a strategic investigation of the network and how it should be improved in the long term, aside from the very limited scope Alternatives to HS2 report.

The national multi-modal timetable plan is a different issue to the need for HS2 itself. The Swiss have no high speed rail routes yet they manage one just fine, but their entire rail network is designed around these timetables. Such a timetable would not be possible just yet for Britain just because our rail network is so heavily congested at its main hubs. HS2 gives us the chance to separate out the most difficult trains to path onto their own infrastructure, designed for them from the scratch, which will then be able to connect to existing services across the country. HS2 is the start of the organised process in which we can get rid of the idiosyncrasies of our Victorian rail network, designed for a Britain which has long since passed, and make it suitable for our modern and future Britain.

The country in which rail infrastructure is most intensively is Switzerland. The hubs at Zürich and Bern in particular cater for huge volumes of trains. Heavy usage at main hubs is a reason to urgently adopt strategic timetable planning to ensure best use of capacity.

Oddly enough HS2 is also designed to be resilient against storms and other natural phenomena in a way the current network cannot. If you have a look at the Environmental Statement for Phase 1 on the DfT website you will be able to see all the environmental work being done along the route to mitigate the effects of flooding etc. it will be extremely difficult to do the same amount of work on our existing intercity lines as they would require entire embankments and cuttings to be redesigned, which would cost billions for little immediate benefit. It is also entirely electrified, as will our rail network at large, so will be able to be powered by whatever we want. It will rebuild the backbone of Britain around a highly resilient, energy-independent and highly efficient mode of transport.

I agree that this is a benefit of HS2.

Population growth isn't going to continue forever. There is a finite limit on the number of humans who can be supported on this earth but it is likely that the human population increases will taper out well before this. The massive improvement in quality of life for Africa, China and Asia will educate and medicate their populations in such a way that the birthrate will come down to what we see today in the Western world. We are producing more calories per square kilometre of land than we ever have before and we will continue to improve this. Famines are to a large extent political as we do produce well in excess of the food we need for humanity today - North Korea's population starve simply because of their totalitarian government while in Africa starvation is used as a means of war and ethnic cleansing.

You have an awfully pessimistic view. What we are doing today to this world is by no means what we should be but you underestimate the ability of humans to enact change, not only for the worse but for the better. Only a bit more than a hundred years ago the idea of flight itself was unthinkable but today we have probes leaving our solar system in the spirit of human ingenuity and progress. Think of all the technological innovation of the 20th Century and how much faster we are progressing now.

I also agree with you on most of these points. However, population is still growing and I suspect we have passed or will very soon pass the long-term carrying capacity for humans, particularly in a world affected by climate change. Desertification, flooding, storms and diseases caused by climate change seem likely to cause huge problems before we have tackled the issues. If much more were being done to tackle impending climate change which will cause a gradual build-up of problems I may be inclined to agree with you.

Thank you for the time you have taken to respond to these questions on HS2. I don't feel that the serious arguments for and against are done justice, instead the debate seems to focus on the Chilterns.
 
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