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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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HSTEd

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The ferry market is nowhere near as strong and diverse as it used to be.

It seems to have collapsed to a Dover-Calais service with little bits tacked on.

Am pretty sure the Bolougne ferries have gone completely now?
 
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NotATrainspott

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HS2 would not serve the core North East - York - Leeds - Manchester - Liverpool axis, though would significantly reduce journey times for Manchester - Birmingham and Leeds - Birmingham passengers. The lower usage, capacity and frequency of the routes to/from Birmingham suggest that they are of lesser importance to passengers and business than the Leeds - Manchester axis. However, evidence from the rest of Europe suggests that connecting regional centres to a capital city benefits the capital city more than the regional centres.

As I said before, HS2 Ltd and the Government know that the Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds axis will require a major upgrade. This upgrade will not be on the scale of HS2 as it will be physically shorter and geographically much more concentrated, so the cost and time necessary for planning and construction will be significantly lower than either of the HS2 phases. It is very unlikely that 400m long double-decker trains will be needed on this route so it is unlikely that it will require entire new stations to be built as HS2 does. As a result it will almost certainly take the form of Javelin-style units running on upgraded and new sections of track - rather like what the Scottish Government plan to do between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Any new or reopened alignments can be built to a UIC GC structure gauge so as to not preclude further upgrades in the future when it is made necessary by demand or operational requirements. This route would not need to be capable of 400km/h by any means so the new lines will be able to follow existing road and rail alignments more than HS2 is able to, reducing its environmental impact and cost slightly. Because this route would not be dependent upon HS2 in order to function, coupling it to the HS2 scheme directly would be not only unnecessary but would create more risk for both schemes. We can do other new infrastructure projects at the same time as HS2 - the slow pace of construction means that at any one point in time there is still plenty of capacity for other projects to be built at the same time.

Would a line to Scotland be able to support a number of (possibly double-decker) 200m / 400m trains per hour, even if carrying almost all of the traffic? For such a line to have a very dominant modal share fares would have to be very low. In the rest of Europe many people prefer to take slower services than pay higher fares for high speed rail. The failure of Eurostar to drive ferry companies out of business as predicted in the business case suggests that conventional rail is likely to respond to the challenge of HS2 if competition between operators continues. How much would the travel market have to grow for this line to be viable? I couldn't suggest an answer to this questions but imagine that this would need to be investigated before making judgements on the viable of such a line.

Yes, a line to Scotland will not be filled with 18tph of 400m long double-decker trains an hour, even if every single air journey from Scotland to London and Birmingham were replaced with a journey on rail. It is particularly difficult to limit the amount of capacity when building a new HSR line - single track with crossing loops limits it far too much and introduces unacceptable risk for reliable running while double-track provides the same amount as there is anywhere else upon the line. Even in Phase 2 the plan is only for a single train from Birmingham to the Central belt on HS2 per hour - alternating between going to Glasgow and Edinburgh and only a single 200m long unit to match. The continuation of the line to Scotland instead much justify itself on journey time improvements, capacity relief for freight on the existing line and the modal shift it would generate without a question of a doubt from air to rail between London and Scotland. The line between Bamfurlong and wherever the E&G delta junction will be will cost around ten billion pounds alone, which is a very significant amount of investment in a route which again will not see itself filled to the brim with passengers (that is, unless we decide to fill it up by piling the tickets to Manchester and Birmingham high and selling them cheap - the trains are going to have the seats anyway so why not fill them and make money from onboard things?). What this investment would do though would be to free up the disproportionately many landing/takeoff slots used by the passengers flying from the London airports to Scotland. Combined together the passenger numbers from Heathrow to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Newcastle are the second highest of all flows: 1.2m + 0.8m + 0.5m = 2.5m; JFK is 2.8m and Dubai is 2m. These flights will predominantly by done with small aircraft which are much less efficient per passenger kilometre than a larger plane, let alone HSR. If we add Manchester, which is obviously served by HS2 but is still a significant number of flights at 0.7m, and Aberdeen at 0.7m as well then the modal shift from air to rail could free up significant capacity at Heathrow or allow the residents around it some more peace and quiet. The costs of further Heathrow or other London airport expansion, not only financial but social and environmental, make the costs of extending HS2 that bit further a lot more palatable. I haven't added the Scotland figures from Gatwick or Stansted but these are millions as well.

Given that the infrastructure Eurostar uses has capacity limits, I would argue that it is important to use it to the greatest environmental benefit, meaning attracting passengers from air. Given that Eurostar has the dominant share of the three capitals market, this means attracting passengers making longer journeys. Others however take a different view. However, the European Commission states that 43% of the Channel Tunnel's capacity is unused and I believe LGV Nord runs around 7-8 tph, suggesting that there is capacity for additional services. I agree that there is a large potential for expanding international rail services currently hampered by the security and passport checks mandated by the UK government in a Parliamentary bill, in particular by running direct trains from London to Rotterdam and Amsterdam, Köln and Frankfurt and Lyon and Marseille.
Freight was always a central part of the business case for the building of the Channel Tunnel (http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...s/RP95-2/channel-tunnel-rail-link-bill-199495 - see page 4) and some magazines have devoted articles to the failure of the Channel Tunnel to attract significant freight flows. If the infrastructure had not been built, European governments could have heavily taxed airlines while railways could have promoted the lower fares on the rail-sea-rail service which would not have faced the high access charges Eurostar faces on HS1 and in the Channel Tunnel today. However, heavily taxing airlines does not fit with the philosophy of current European governments and the Channel Tunnel may have been justifiable due to the very long journey times of the rail-sea-rail route and the greater potential of the Channel Tunnel route to serve longer distance markets.

Eurostar are adding extra services with their new fleet of trains capable of travel beyond the three capitals + ski/summer service so some of this extra capacity is going to be used. These new trains show what's now capable when we build new HSR routes as they can be bought almost off the shelf from anywhere - the extra fireproofing required over completely standard units is still a lot less than the need to completely rebuild the train for the UK loading gauge.

The Channel Tunnel saw us build not only a new rail passenger route but a new rail freight route as well. Rail has a particularly difficult time in the UK on intermodal transport because very few of the distances for freight are significant enough here that rail is a vastly cheaper and easier option than simply keeping it on lorries all the way to the its final destination. When the freight comes off a ship to Europe, it is very easy for that ship just to dock somewhere reasonably centred in the UK such as Hull or Liverpool on its trip to the continent and have the UK-bound freight loaded onto lorries for the reasonably short distance then to where it will need to go. This is why the proposals to reopen the Great Central as a freight-only route have not been taken ahead and instead we have a scheme which we can guarantee will have a large amount of usage from day one. As we will not be performing many more massive capacity increases on our roads, and the cost of road haulage is only going to increase in comparison to rail, the only way is up for the future of rail freight. Building the Channel Tunnel when it was has given us many benefits and it is unlikely that it would have been a better idea to wait until it was absolutely necessary to build it. Adding extra services on existing lines, where that capacity exists already, will only take a few months of planning at most whereas building an entirely new piece of infrastructure like the Channel Tunnel will take decades in total. Much better to have the possibility there immediately than it is to not build it until it's too late. Not building the Channel Tunnel would not have ever increased the amount of freight being transported to and from the UK by environmentally-conscious methods. When we run le Shuttle services we're running them entirely on electricity and not causing any localised pollution; ferries cause enormous amounts of localised pollution due to oil spills and their burning of fossil fuels.

This is a valid point, though most local services serving Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds terminate there. Most platforms at Manchester Piccadilly and some at Leeds are terminating platforms. This limits the difference in time the different categories of train need to spend in the platforms.

My point still stands that these, and the paths the intercity services use to get in and out of the stations, will now become available for more local services. Local services will still be able to vacate the platforms faster than intercity ones: looking at Real Time Trains today for Piccadilly the VT 1H64 from Euston arrived 1149 and left for Euston as 1A32 at 1215 - 26 minutes of occupying platform 5. NT 2H51 from Rose Hill Marple arrived 1157 but left as 2H52 on the return at only 1205 - only eight minutes of occupying platform 2. Walking the extra 9 coaches to the other end above what a Pacer/156 has cannot take 18 minutes so it must be that the IC services take longer. At 26 minutes a pop the platforms used by a Pendolino are out of action for a whole half hour, whereas on local services they'll be done in ten: 2tph versus 6tph. This may likely be a very simplistic view of the operations here but the gist of what I'm saying rings true as local services in no way are going to take as long or longer than IC ones to turn around. HS2 adds extra platforms to Piccadilly and makes them independent of the station throat and surrounding lines, something that simply adding extra platforms onto the station as it is cannot ever replicate.

HS2 stations may all have some form of connection to the rest of the network, but the extra time spent connecting to and from the HS2 stations is likely to negate the time savings the line makes possible.

If you are travelling long distances on HS2 then the time savings of the journey will outweigh the connection time, especially when the local services will be more frequent and will connect better to HS2 than they are able to today. If you are making a journey where the journey time improvements are marginal then the existing lines will still have services which follow the overall route of HS2 but stop in more stations. HS2 isn't going to be the only way of getting between London and Birmingham or Leeds and Sheffield. If it's faster for you to stay on these services then you will still see the quality improve post-HS2 as your stations can be served more regularly and you will not compete for seats with people who are travelling significantly further. If you live in Coventry, and wish to travel to London, you might find it easier just to stay on a service going along the WCML. Unlike today, where Coventry can only be served as an intermediate stop between London and Birmingham where the train will have largely filled up before starting its journey, your trains will be free of people going between city centres and dedicated to people who are travelling between intermediate stops and from there to cities and vice-versa. Trains which currently pass through non-stop will be able to stop, allowing you direct links to many more places than currently possible. If you are lucky enough to live currently on a route which is then next-stop-London, then it is very possible that your train will be slower to London because not every station can get a non-stop service and your one really only gets one now because it's the only way they can serve your station on the timetable. On the other hand you will now see a much more frequent service, which will reduce connection times across the network, and you will not have to stand to get on.

The approximately £40 bn to be spent on HS2 could be spent on any other project. HS2 therefore inevitably prevents other projects from going ahead or at the very least prevents a reduction of the national debt.

HS2 is an investment where we know that we can get the money back in the end and profit overall. Very few other schemes, including the world beyond rail, promise real commercial returns for the Government on top of the environmental and connectivity benefits. Borrowing costs are currently at extremely low levels so if we borrow now, when the network is up and running we can reap the money gained from revenue and use it for whatever we wish. If we do not spend the money now, we will not add another source of government income for the future which means that we will be very slightly better off in the very short term but then we will be significantly worse off in the long term.

40/50/80/whatever number of billions people claim it will cost (it is actually costed at £28bn for the scheme with an extra 50% on top for contingency) is really not that much money for the United Kingdom over the 20 years it will be spent. It is capital spending, which we currently do not do enough of, where we spend money and actually get something tangible as a result. We can absolutely afford to spend it because we are spending the same amount per year on another massive infrastructure project (Crossrail) as we will per year on HS2, and no one particularly notices nor cares. Crossrail 2 will cost less than its predecessor as there are fewer expensive stations under the centre of London and because it will not require the same level of improvement on the surface lines it links; it is also funded separately and simultaneously with HS2.

Another crucial reason why HS2 isn't able to inhibit other projects on the existing network is that until the trains start running for testing (when all the infrastructure is done anyway along the running lines) the construction is just another construction project where we can build (98% of) it without worrying about trains actually running. The teams and equipment capable of working on the the running railway have a full works schedule for several decades to come but none of them are going to be required for the vast majority of HS2 works. If we embarked on massive upgrades to the existing north/south instead then we wouldn't have the railway construction capacity to do the electrification and other improvements which are planned for everywhere else in the country.
 

The Ham

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Once the Scottish phase is being proposed it may well be that another HS line out of London to the north may be required. If this is the case then we could see a step change in the frequency of services to Scotland as there would be less need for paths on HS2 phase 1 for trains which are going to destinations served by the new HS line.

It may also allow Liverpool to have a HS line as well.
 

Oscar

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Another crucial reason why HS2 isn't able to inhibit other projects on the existing network is that until the trains start running for testing (when all the infrastructure is done anyway along the running lines) the construction is just another construction project where we can build (98% of) it without worrying about trains actually running. The teams and equipment capable of working on the the running railway have a full works schedule for several decades to come but none of them are going to be required for the vast majority of HS2 works. If we embarked on massive upgrades to the existing north/south instead then we wouldn't have the railway construction capacity to do the electrification and other improvements which are planned for everywhere else in the country.

This is an interesting point which I have not heard before. Would it not be feasible to expand the construction teams capable of working on the running railway rather than developing teams and equipment to build HS2?
 

HSTEd

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Those teams cost a fortune and work far more slowly than a team that doesn't have to worry about trains.

If nothing else plant can stay on the work site all the time and not have to be constantly moved around to get it out of the way of trains.
You also don't need lineside safety qualifications for everyone.
 

YorkshireBear

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HS2 would not serve the core North East - York - Leeds - Manchester - Liverpool axis, though would significantly reduce journey times for Manchester - Birmingham and Leeds - Birmingham passengers. The lower usage, capacity and frequency of the routes to/from Birmingham suggest that they are of lesser importance to passengers and business than the Leeds - Manchester axis. However, evidence from the rest of Europe suggests that connecting regional centres to a capital city benefits the capital city more than the regional centres.
Just a point the TPE axis York-Manchester has 8-10 carriages an hour. Manchester Birmingham has 9 Leeds Birmingham has between 4-9 carriages an hour and both are overcrowded quite seriously for long distance services.
 
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Those teams cost a fortune and work far more slowly than a team that doesn't have to worry about trains.

If nothing else plant can stay on the work site all the time and not have to be constantly moved around to get it out of the way of trains.
You also don't need lineside safety qualifications for everyone.

Many people involved in the WCML upgrade did say at the end of it that it would have been both easier and cheaper to build an entirely new railway nearby.
 

HSTEd

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Inflation adjusted we could have had HS2-1 once you account for the titanic overrruns that the WCRM suffered from.
That would have had a far greater effect on the wider route even if we posit older TGV type trainsets.
 

WatcherZero

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Cheshire East has released a couple of images of its HS2 plans, we have already mentioned the relocated main station, they are proposing a mini tram-train network along the existing rail corridors to link it to the town.

zz14012014pscNEWHUB-6509184.jpg


zz14012014pscTRAMLINE-6509186.jpg


The existing station would be downgraded to a tram-train station with the occasional local heavy rail service stopping.


As far as I know, the only local council in the north midlands/north west now opposing HS2 is Warrington Borough council, even the affluent leafy areas around Manchester Airport that many thought would be like the Chilterns are supporting it.


Derby council are also making a play for relocating the Toton stop to the centre of Derby. They believe that redirecting it through the centre of Derby would somehow reduce the number exposed to noise from 4,676, in 1,983 houses to 827 in 351 houses and that the benefits would go from £330m and 600 jobs to £440m and 12,000 jobs. Alternately they suggest they would just be happy with transport links to Toton.

5708969-large.jpg
 
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Oscar

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Just a point the TPE axis York-Manchester has 8-10 carriages an hour. Manchester Birmingham has 9 Leeds Birmingham has between 4-9 carriages an hour and both are overcrowded quite seriously for long distance services.

Only very few of the Leeds - Birmingham services have more than 4-5 carriages and it is only in the evening peak that two trains run via Leeds in one hour.
 

HowardGWR

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Only very few of the Leeds - Birmingham services have more than 4-5 carriages and it is only in the evening peak that two trains run via Leeds in one hour.
Oscar, do you mind telling us where you are going with this? I replied to you because I thought you were interested in discussing the environmental consequences of HS2 and you implied you were against the project for those reasons, namely that it would increase damage to the climate in particular and the environment in general.

Was that it?
 
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HSTEd

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They could build some sort of light rail thing that would run to Toton from Central Derby, probably with cross platform interchange with the almost inevitable NET extension.
 

NotATrainspott

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It is amazing just how much information about HS2 is scattered about the hundreds of technical documents you can find on the HS2/DfT web sites. They got Mott MacDonald/Scott Wilson/Grimshaw to do the work for a route all the way to north of Preston as an addition to the connection at Bamfurlong (which is also where the rolling stock depot is, wedged between HS2 and WCML with connections to both). They've even done designs for an M55 Preston Interchange station! HS2 Phase Two Engineering Options Report West Midlands to Manchester - Part 2 Page 83 Someone really needs to collate all this stuff into one verifiable source - an HS2 wiki perhaps?
 

YorkshireBear

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Diagrams and text see above

Very very interesting.

The Crewe idea for me actually looks very very sensible. BUT BUT BUT BUT.

At what cost? i can't imagine it adding anything less than 2 billion to the project would it be worth that much? I am not sure? How long would the WCML need to be closed for? We are trying to avoid things like that. I would need those questions answering before i support it.

Warrington seem to have big problems with the maintenance depot planned there on greenfield land.

Derby... I think they know they are being ambitious, Toton for me is a fantastic location. Tram to Nottingham, regular fast EMUs to Derby and Nottingham and other local stations. Road links are good but maybe some work to A52.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Only very few of the Leeds - Birmingham services have more than 4-5 carriages and it is only in the evening peak that two trains run via Leeds in one hour.

you have 3-4 HSTs a day each way at 7 carriages each. You have at least 2 doubled up sets during the peak and two per hour for evening peak.

Some doubled up during day sometimes too. So more than you think.

And to be honest i don't think it matters to the discussion so we should leave it here.
 

Oscar

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Oscar, do you mind telling us where you are going with this? I replied to you because I thought you were interested in discussing the environmental consequences of HS2 and you implied you were against the project for those reasons, namely that it would increase damage to the climate in particular and the environment in general.

Was that it?

The point was that there is perhaps more demand, a larger current travel market and therefore more potential for modal shift on the Manchester - Leeds than Birmingham - Leeds route and that some of the money spent on HS2 could be better spent on this route.
 
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NotATrainspott

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The point was that there is perhaps more demand, a larger current travel market and therefore more potential for modal shift on the Manchester - Leeds than Birmingham - Leeds route and that some of the money spent on HS2 could be better spent on this route.

This route is seeing a lot of money spent on it at the moment, before HS2 even touched Parliament. Electrification, more track, better linespeeds, longer platforms and longer trains are all part of the Northern Hub. If further intervention will be necessary in ten or twenty years' time then it doesn't require us to plan ahead now because it won't be several hundred kilometres of new track requiring wide-scale public enquiry and political discussion. As I seem to be repeating quite a lot, the investment we're making in HS2 is a minority of the total investment in the railways in the same period. The north TPE route is in the process of having ten new longer, faster and electric trains delivered which frees up more diesel trains to run the other trans-pennine routes for the next few years until it is electrified fully. These schemes are now funded and planned completely; they're not a distant aspiration like extending HS2 to Scotland.
 
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6Gman

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Cheshire East has released a couple of images of its HS2 plans, we have already mentioned the relocated main station, they are proposing a mini tram-train network along the existing rail corridors to link it to the town.

zz14012014pscNEWHUB-6509184.jpg


zz14012014pscTRAMLINE-6509186.jpg


The existing station would be downgraded to a tram-train station with the occasional local heavy rail service stopping.


As far as I know, the only local council in the north midlands/north west now opposing HS2 is Warrington Borough council, even the affluent leafy areas around Manchester Airport that many thought would be like the Chilterns are supporting it.

What I don't understand, as a Crewe resident, is how all this would be fitted in physically without massive demolition and remodelling, on a scale which would make the rebuilding of Euston a picnic!

For example how do you put HS2, the WCML, and this 'local tram/train' thing through the confined space immediately north of (the existing) Crewe station?
 

Deerfold

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The point was that there is perhaps more demand, a larger current travel market and therefore more potential for modal shift on the Manchester - Leeds than Birmingham - Leeds route and that some of the money spent on HS2 could be better spent on this route.

Or you could look at people like my wife. She's not overly fond of driving but will where it's significantly quicker than the train (whereas I'll usually catch the train even if it's quite a bit slower). The one route she'll drive where it's not fastest is Yorkshire to Birmingham as she can't stand the overcrowding on the XC train services with the current service provision (especially where she can't be sure of her return time).
 
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Derby... I think they know they are being ambitious, Toton for me is a fantastic location. Tram to Nottingham, regular fast EMUs to Derby and Nottingham and other local stations. Road links are good but maybe some work to A52.

Where is this magic capacity through Trent junction going to come from then? Diverting existing services will be politically unacceptable as it will add 10-15 minutes onto the already very slow Nottingham - Derby services. No plan has been produced to show how trains from Derby can actually reach Toton once Trent East jnc is removed.

The Nottingham tram will full from local traffic alone, where will the capacity for a trainload of football fans from the south come from?
 

HSTEd

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The trams are not at the maximum length the infrastructure allows at the present time.

They can get longer.

Ditto I doubt the trams infrastructure will be loaded to 100% as it is in terms of trams per hour.
 

6Gman

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I particularly like the look of those suspiciously loco-hauled regional train services at the left of that diagram! :lol:

The buildings and background sketched in alongside also bear no resemblance to any part of Crewe I know!

I think this is "Consultants' Artist's Impression" at its worst.

I will never forget the meeting I went to in 2008/9 when there was last talk of moving Crewe Station. When I asked whether this idea of moving a station out of town and running a shuttle into the town had been tried anywhere else the consultant's reply was:

Yes, it happens at Warrington. The long-distance trains go to Bank Quay, then you change onto a local train to the Central station.

Really?
 

edwin_m

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Where is this magic capacity through Trent junction going to come from then? Diverting existing services will be politically unacceptable as it will add 10-15 minutes onto the already very slow Nottingham - Derby services. No plan has been produced to show how trains from Derby can actually reach Toton once Trent East jnc is removed.

The Nottingham tram will full from local traffic alone, where will the capacity for a trainload of football fans from the south come from?

Providing a decent public transport access to Toton hasn't really been cracked yet. A tram to Nottingham would have about 16 intermediate stops so good for the western suburbs including quite a few major sites but not so good for the centre. Nottingham Midland could be reached from London at least as quickly by classic train (maybe 80min with electrification) than by HS2 (53min) plus connection time (5min?) plus tram (?min). Same would go for Derby.

If a south curve was provided at Trowell then trains could run through Nottingham-Toton-Derby but would still be slower than existing and would not serve Beeston or Attenborough. Even with HS2 changing the layout at Trent East I think they would still be parallel with Nottingham-Leicester trains, although any Derby trains via Beeston would still have to cross between the two on the flat. Remodelling at Nottingham (and future platform 8) and in future at Derby would probably provide capacity for extra services but I'm very doubtful that the number of interchanging HS2 passengers would justify at decent connecting service.
 

YorkshireBear

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Where is this magic capacity through Trent junction going to come from then? Diverting existing services will be politically unacceptable as it will add 10-15 minutes onto the already very slow Nottingham - Derby services. No plan has been produced to show how trains from Derby can actually reach Toton once Trent East jnc is removed.

The Nottingham tram will full from local traffic alone, where will the capacity for a trainload of football fans from the south come from?

Details unknown but it will not be left as it is now.
 

HowardGWR

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Details unknown but it will not be left as it is now.

I had assumed there would be a shuttle from Toton to Derby and one to Nott, both of which would be non stop. I assumed there would be a local service from Derby to Nottingham as at present. Where the engineering has to go has never been specified - has it?

One thing, the tram, oh, and that is an extra service, will not do the fast shuttle job will it?
 

NotATrainspott

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I think the fact that HS2 does not include the necessary extra connecting services in its scope is actually quite a good thing in the end. If these were tacked on to HS2 it would guarantee they would happen by 2026/2033, but it would probably also as well delay them until then as well. The land around Toton will shoot up in value once Phase 2 has been made final so there may even be enough development in the meantime to justify at least some of the new connecting services before HS2 is actually finished. None of these connecting services will take 20 years from planning to finally opening and a lot can change in the meantime.
 

WatcherZero

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Commons standing order committee has extended the consultation by two weeks because just under 1,000 pages of the environmental study wernt published straight away. Pretty much what everyone expected.

What it highlights however is the retarded process for infrastructure in this country!
The committee hadnt met since 2008 so there was no MP's on it with previous experience. The law required that Ordinance Survey map reference were used, in a form that was discontinued by the OS in 1972! The law required that signs were placed at the end of all roads even though it was illegal to place signs on motorway slip roads, thats because the rules predate the creation of the motorways and came from horse and cart days! The rules require every water pipe to be marked on a map no matter how minor, totally impractical for a huge route in the modern era.

No wonder the Chinese can build 1000's of miles in the time it takes us to talk about it.
 

The Ham

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The rules require every water pipe to be marked on a map no matter how minor, totally impractical for a huge route in the modern era.

Whilst in contrast (if I had to guess at the rules) any telecommunications line probably doesn't?

This is based on the fact that water pipes are fairly easy and fairly cheap to move (they also tend to be deeper to stop them freezing in cold weather), compared to the cost of relocating a length of fibre-optic cable which tend to be as shallow as the operator can get away with laying them at.
 

HowardGWR

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I think we can agree that Toton is a different kettle of fish to Meadowhall. From the latter to the city centre is just a 'people mover' type of exercise, whereas something more like a suburban railway is needed for Derby and Nott.

Just to come back to Oscar, if he is still with us, I did not find his last post answering my query. I still don't know where he was going with his points. Of course there are alternatives to any strategy but if one starts with the 'given' that there is not to be any more travel allowed than now, (and preferably less) then I don't see what there is to discuss about HS2 as a project since, with this project, clearly there will be a huge increase in travel encouraged, and long-distance to boot. I dealt with modal shift and transfer from other railways (not an increase in travel) but that's not where the calculated benefits, tipping the decision in favour, come from.
 
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