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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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MK Tom

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Can I make an petition that we have two HS2 threads, one for actual discussion about HS2, and the other for the likes of stanley T to simply post garbage without any real discussion or content to the post other than complete drivel from someone who doesn't seem to know anything about economic cycles or at a push the UK Transport network.

Invincibles, some good points, I'll get back to them when I have a moment.

Can I just politely disassociate myself from the type of people you're describing there... :) My agenda is a rerouted HS2 with a parkway station for the South Midlands (or at the very least continued limited-stop intercity-quality service for the WCML towns and cities). Another option would be a parkway station where HS2 crosses EWR at Calvert. That aside I fully support the scheme.
 
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deltic

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Evidence from other countries demonstrates the importance of city centre stations. In the UK around a quarter of people travelling on intercity services to and from London walk to and from their station in cities such as Manchester, Leeds etc. Roughly an equal number come by public transport highlighting the need for good interchange and a high proportion travel by taxi again suggesting local trips.

Parkway stations generally operate in one direction only - ie people will drive to a parkway station to travel to London. But few people from London will travel to a parkway station where they then have to hire a car or catch an expensive taxi for their onward journey. This has been the case in France. Therefore such stations do little to rebalance the economy as the Govt says it wants. Does anyone for example travel from Paris to Ebbsfleet.

A HS station also needs a catchment area well in excess of 1/2m to make it work successfully which is one reason why Ashford didnt work that well nor does Calais on Eurostar.
 

Nym

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MK_Tom, I'm fully in support of an additional station on the HS2 route, as some may know, I'm also an advocate of 4 track between OOC and Birmingham Delta, and a station to link with EWR and roads in that area would be a very nice addition.

And to back deltic, Manchester and Leeds need City Centre stations, the major railhead is Piccadilly and Victoria (And to a lesser extent, Oxford Road), and in places that are rather large cities, car ownership tends to be quite low among the members of public that are likely to travel longer distances by rail.

Most professionals that live and work in Manchester do not own their own vehicles, so the point 0 travellers need the CC penitration.

As do connecting travellers from all over the Greater Manchester Urban area, they will travel to Manchester and change onto the HS services.

There does also NEED to be at least one parkway for Manchester though, and Leeds for that matter (but I don't think it should be at Cross Gates, it should be at the junction, so somwhere just south of Wakefeild, or possibly, depending on the alignment chosen, near Oulton and Castleford)

Manchester could quite well live (and would be justifiable to have) two parkway stations, one at Manchester South Parkway, between the M56Spur for Manchester Airport and Wythenshawe, basically serving Manchester Airport and Cheshire (Completing the A555 and calling it the M60 would help too) and Manchester West Parkway near Culceath north of the Ship Canal, round about the area to the North of M62 Junc 11 at Birchwood, this would connect initally (and continue to) into the Chat Moss Line for the WCML and Liverpool, and when the HS2 network is continued further north, it will be done from here. There would then be the chance to use this new alignment to take commuter traffic off the M62 and M56 and put them on a Park & Ride HS Rail service using Javelin style units, operating at up to 6tph (as these areas within the Delta Junction Area) would be 4 tracked.
Manchester West Parkway at Culceath would also serve as a London P&R Railhead with services to London calling there, as would Manchester S Parkway for Cheshire, so the areas with high car ownership, in the rural areas would have excelent services to Liverpool via Chat Moss from Manchester W Parkway, and to London and Manchester from both Mancheter W and S Parkways.
Would also take a lot of strain off of the Castlefeild Viaduct through Oxford Road and Victoria by taking the fast Liverpool and Scotland services off of the Chat Moss through Paitcroft, and onto the HS2 tracks out of Manchester, albeit potentially at conventional 125 speeds, out to Manchester W Parkway (Would need ERTMS2 fitted stock), then joining the Chat Moss or WCML to continue. (I would have all intentions of forever keeping this link in place for this very purpouse) Fast TPE Services would continue to run via Chat Moss as Inter Reigonal services, or divert back via Guide Bridge again and into the HS2 station area's conventional platforms to access that route, proberbly keeping them on the Chat Moss as there is little time gain.

Note: This is based on a 10 platform HS2 station in the Baring St Industrial Area, with access to Manc W and S Parkways via an exploded Delta Junction, fully segrigated access at 125mph linespeed, ERTMS2.

So service patterns involving these stations would look like...

CAP = Captive Stock
CC = Classic Compatable Stock (As ordered at HS2a)
SSE = Standard Stock ERTMS Fitted (125mph capable)
SS = Standard Stock
CAPC = Captive Commuter Stock (200m long 'Javelin' style units, but at EU Guage)

In and out of Manchester Baring St
3tph Manchester S Parkway (CAPC)
3tph Manchester W Parkway (CAPC)
1tph Scotland via Manchester W Parkway (CC/SSE)
2tph Liverpool L St via Manchester W Parkway (CC/SSE)
2tph Birmingham N St (CAP)
3tph London Euston (CAP)
1tph Tunnel via Birmingham Parkway and OOC (CAP)

Between Manchester S and W PW (Note: Some of these may be joined for portion working, for example, the via Preston services could be joined to each Liverpool and divide at Manchester W Parkway, 200m of train to Glasgow or Blackpool or wherever, and 200m of train to Liverpool, if Glasgow needs it, 400m just for Glasgow, calling only Preston and Carlisle)
2tph Euston - Liverpool L St (CC)
1tph Euston - Blackpool N (CC)
1tph Euston - Glasgow Cen. (CC)
Anything else going up the WCML North

1 - 2tph Birmingham - Liverpool L St (CC) (Possibly join with Manchester Diagrams)
1tph Birmingham - Scotland (CC)

And these services:
Euston - Chester - Holyhead
Euston - Liverpool via Runcorn
Will leave HS2 at Rugley for Crewe...
 

JohnCarlson

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I am well aware that the proposed new station just South East of Cross Gates is not in the centre of Leeds, but that is the point. Engineering lines into city centres is expensive. There is nothing stopping trains going very fast until the reach the "parkway" and then using classical lines to head into the city. This is the tactic that CRH have employed with Shanghai and it makes perfect sense.

While the OOC example is extreme, it is not as extreme as what I would propose, which is a station near Kings Langley on the WCML to let half the trains go from there into Euston, with HS2 continuing around the M25 roughly to connect with HS1 in East London (possibly as part of the new East London development). In a perfect world it would be possible to get trains into Canary Wharf and Stratford, but I do not know how feasible that would be.

I genuinely believe that we are obsessed with the idea people want to go from city centre to city centre, but that is not true, hence the success of Stockport as a station (which in HS terms may as well be Manchester because stopping a train so quickly would have massive time penalties), it has good access for the M60 and is convenient for most of south Manchester to reach.

I do not have the software to run a model, but compare how many people can reach Lymm within a 25 minute drive (or equivalent public transport journey) with how many can reach Manchester City centre. I think the conclusions will support the idea that at least half of HS trains would be better serving a station to the west of Manchester at "Warrington".

Similar exercises would support Toton over Derby/Nottingham, Birmingham International over Coventry or Birmingham etc...

When we plan HS routes we need to think about the cost and the wider interest and not just focus on established centres, which, like Shanghai, can still be served by HS just with trains making 100mph journeys for 10 miles or so at the end of the route.


I understand that there can be an argument for parkway station and not everyone wants to go to go from city centre to city centre but in the specific case of Leeds replacing a city centre terminal with a station at Crossgates is a bad idea. Here’s why:

A lot of east coast trains terminate at Leeds, but a small and growing number don’t. Many if not most of the ECML and cross country passengers come in from places like Skipton, Harrogate and Bradford which is the opposite side of Leeds. If these people are getting direct trains and avoiding changing at Leeds they are not likely to want to travel into Leeds then change onto a train for Crossgates and then get HS2. The time saving on HS2 would have to be enormous to justify that and even if it was, humping cases on and off trains is not what many people want.

The area around Leeds station is a thriving business, leisure and accommodation district. I have stayed the a few times and its absolutely banging. Leeds city centre is not what everyone wants, but a lot of people do. Few at all would want Crossgates. No one in Leeds would want to jeopardise all that investment by moving the HS2 station out to Crossgates. if I was a property owner in the center of Leeds I would be pro HS2 if the line ran into the existing station and anti if it terminated at Crossgates.

From my experience almost all local rail and bus services converge on Leeds central. Crossgates is right out on a limb. If it was choice between a station at Crossgates and simply by passing Leeds altogether but running direct to York and then building a chord between Leeds and York which would give a journey time to Leeds of about 12 minutes might be less fuss all round although I can’t expect the good people of Leeds to be happy with that . The good people of York of course would be delighted.'

I have heard suggestions that when HS2 is extended to Newcastle it should be via a park and ride station on the western edge of the city to avoid the tight turns near the central station. however for people like me living to the east of tyneside this would mean the journey form my house to any Newcastle Parkway would almost be a long as the journey from Newcastle to London.

Best

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
MK_Tom, I'm fully in support of an additional station on the HS2 route, as some may know, I'm also an advocate of 4 track between OOC and Birmingham Delta, and a station to link with EWR and roads in that area would be a very nice addition.

BIG SNIP

And these services:
Euston - Chester - Holyhead
Euston - Liverpool via Runcorn
Will leave HS2 at Rugley for Crewe...

Well I couldn't have written all that. :)

I suppose that HS2 might be qualitatively different between Birmingham and the north and Birmingham and London. I would guess if there are to be two tracks south of Birmingham they will be fully occupied with express trains but north of Birmingham there will be plenty of opportunity for commuter trains.

As this is all a couple of decades away its difficulty to tell what the country will be like . Indeed the way things are going its difficult to
predict next year. :eek:

John
 

Invincibles

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The issue with Leeds, and its' large number of settlements to the west is easily solved though. Trains terminating in Leeds would leave the high speed line and travel into the current station on classical compatible lines.

As such there would remain a good service between Leeds and London and no one would have to change twice.

As far as I can tell the time penalty on the city centre stations from having classical lines from the parkways is only going to be a couple of minutes as much of the time would be eaten up by acceleration anyway.

The Manchester case for Parkways is much stronger with the airport* and warrington* ones having a large number of people resident near them.

Building stations on loops also means you can have more of them, that seems to work very well here in China.
 

Waverley125

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Building out at Cross Gates is a bad idea, for the reasons listed above.

Also, because for somewhere east of Leeds as a 'Parkway' is has utterly ****e connections to the rest of West Yorks. Ferrybridge would be the only workable 'Yorkshire parkway' site, where it could connect with basically all main lines into everywhere. However, being in the middle of f*****g nowhere would obviously be a bit of a problem.

The best solution is to run into central leeds. The Southeastern line (from Pontefract & Wakefield) has easily enough space between Stourton & Crown Point Junction to be widened to 6 lines (4 classic, 2HS).

At Crown point Junction, the line could swing north into the site of the old CP goods depot, which is now an industrial estate. The cutting & old infrastructure for this is almost all still there.

The line could then drop down, tunnelling under the air and the northeast of the city to come out somewhere north of Whinmoor (about 5 miles). From here it'd basically a dead straight run to Newcastle,
 

Train jaune

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Regarding a station in Manchester. Anyone heard any talk or got any thoughts on where this should be? Some people have mentioned Mayfield so I had a wander down that way yesterday whilst waiting for my train at Picadilly. It occurs to me that if that proves to be the option that is taken then any development needs to mesh with any Northern Hub improvements to create two new through platforms at Picadilly. To work effectively any HS2 station needs to integrated into the existing trnsport hub in my opinion. What do people think?
 

Nym

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I have posted many a time, but heres another short version...

15/16 at piccadilly should have a new link (along with 13/14) onto the main concourse where costa is now, this should also form the link to the HS2 station, this should occupy all of the Barring Street industrial area, on google maps, the area bound by the railway, Fairfeild St, Baring St and the A635/A635M, not demolishing the student flats or hotel, but building up to Baring St and some new passenger entrances on the other side of Fairfeild St. Vehicle Drop off and pickups etc.
Access via moving walkway from where Costa is in the main concourse via 13 - 16 access walkway.
 

JohnCarlson

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Building out at Cross Gates is a bad idea, for the reasons listed above.

Also, because for somewhere east of Leeds as a 'Parkway' is has utterly ****e connections to the rest of West Yorks. Ferrybridge would be the only workable 'Yorkshire parkway' site, where it could connect with basically all main lines into everywhere. However, being in the middle of f*****g nowhere would obviously be a bit of a problem.

The best solution is to run into central leeds. The Southeastern line (from Pontefract & Wakefield) has easily enough space between Stourton & Crown Point Junction to be widened to 6 lines (4 classic, 2HS).

At Crown point Junction, the line could swing north into the site of the old CP goods depot, which is now an industrial estate. The cutting & old infrastructure for this is almost all still there.

The line could then drop down, tunnelling under the air and the northeast of the city to come out somewhere north of Whinmoor (about 5 miles). From here it'd basically a dead straight run to Newcastle,

Leeds station is busy now and even without HS2 proposals to increase TPE and NR services it will be even busier. I would guess if we are talking of 2 HS2 trains per hour from Newcastle coming in as well there will be four HS2 services per hour running though Leeds. While a tunnel might be an option, especially if it can be combined with use by local trains, that might impinge on the ability of HS2 trains to run out to places like Bradford and Skipton.

I would suggest double decking Leeds station is a solution with local and TPE services being on the top deck. HS2 trains could still leave Leeds in both directions for London and the North.



John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Regarding a station in Manchester. Anyone heard any talk or got any thoughts on where this should be? Some people have mentioned Mayfield so I had a wander down that way yesterday whilst waiting for my train at Picadilly. It occurs to me that if that proves to be the option that is taken then any development needs to mesh with any Northern Hub improvements to create two new through platforms at Picadilly. To work effectively any HS2 station needs to integrated into the existing trnsport hub in my opinion. What do people think?

Mayfield would seem to be the best option and as you say there seem to be plenty of plans for that area already. How many HS2 trains are projected to run to Manchester and continue north per hour? Are Glasgow and Liverpool bound services coming through there?

John
 

Nym

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North from Manchester I suspect it will be on a branchline, thats what everything i've calculated has worked from, working with Manchester S and W Parkways. with Manchester C on the limb of a delta junction.

Actually from Manchester C I'd recon 1tph to Glasgow/Edinbrugh

Through Manchester W Parkway I'd expect the following CC Services

2tph Liverpool
2tph Preston (1tph continuing to Glasgow and/or Edinbrugh) (1tph to Blackpool)

And anything else that runs North of Wigan from Euston LDPE.
 
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JohnCarlson

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The issue with Leeds, and its' large number of settlements to the west is easily solved though. Trains terminating in Leeds would leave the high speed line and travel into the current station on classical compatible lines.

As such there would remain a good service between Leeds and London and no one would have to change twice.

As far as I can tell the time penalty on the city centre stations from having classical lines from the parkways is only going to be a couple of minutes as much of the time would be eaten up by acceleration anyway.

The Manchester case for Parkways is much stronger with the airport* and warrington* ones having a large number of people resident near them.

Building stations on loops also means you can have more of them, that seems to work very well here in China.


Sorry but I can't see how you see this panning out in the Leeds area. If you have a station at Crossgates then services will have to go through Leeds Central to get to Bradford, Skipton and so on. So what is then the point of having Crossgates?

Best

John
 

tbtc

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Sorry but I can't see how you see this panning out in the Leeds area. If you have a station at Crossgates then services will have to go through Leeds Central to get to Bradford, Skipton and so on. So what is then the point of having Crossgates?

Best

John

Who said HS2 was serving Skipton?
 

Nym

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Well, if the Captive network can't reach Leeds, then I don't see any reason why services can't continue on to W Yorks Destinations as they do now...

But if captive stock does reach Leeds, then it will only reach, Leeds... Hence the word, captive.
 

Waverley125

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I'd suggest double decking Leeds station would have serious impacts on the structure of the viaduct, and as such would be prohibitively expensive.

What I suggested was an entirely new station on a site south of the river, about 300 yards from the current site, which it would be easy to be build a very obvious & strong pedestrian link to.

Also I personally wouldn't be bothered about not linking services into Bradford/Huddersfield etc, as the best way to serve these areas would be using the increased capacity on the classic lines.
 

Nym

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Where south of the river? It's all full of new high value developments from what I saw when I was working there. I don't know whats on the former Leeds Central site, but thats a prime candidate for standard platforms to free up space in Leeds City.
 

JohnCarlson

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I'd suggest double decking Leeds station would have serious impacts on the structure of the viaduct, and as such would be prohibitively expensive.

What I suggested was an entirely new station on a site south of the river, about 300 yards from the current site, which it would be easy to be build a very obvious & strong pedestrian link to.

Also I personally wouldn't be bothered about not linking services into Bradford/Huddersfield etc, as the best way to serve these areas would be using the increased capacity on the classic lines.


There is some space sort of south west of the station, but not loads. IIRC a lot of that area is already being developed for apartments and restaurants.

There is a long and winding embankment/viaducty thing that runs from the line currently used by the 225s but at a point that is well clear of the city center right up to the station. It must be a mile or so long. Not sure if something could be made of that.

I am not fixated on double decking Leeds station. But it would meen you don't need to buy vast qualities on new land. It would indeed be simpler to have completely new city center platforms on a brownfield site. But where?
 

Waverley125

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the site south of the River is currently occupied by the Crown Point Retail park. It's a low-rise development that used to house one of Leeds' original railway stations, which later became a parcels depot (as I recall). The site still has the approach in tact, which links into the Leeds south-east line out to Stourton and the M621.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Crown+Point+Retail+Park,+Junction+Street,+Leeds,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&sll=53.741909,-1.448135&sspn=0.072692,0.153637&vpsrc=0&hnear=Crown+Point+Retail+Park,+Junction+St,+Leeds,+West+Yorkshire+LS10+1ET,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=16

The site's easily long enough to drop down from the junction to a point beyond Great Wilson street where the line could tunnel under the river & head northeast, emerging somewhere near Shadwell. The only major engineering other than the tunnel would be the building of a Bridge to carry Great Wilson Street over the pit holding the station, with the station buildings being north of where Great Wilson Street/Hunslet Lane is now, and the area south of GW being the train shed.

This site would also give a junction somewhere west of Woodlesford, allowing HS2 to swing south & run east of Wakefield before heading south to Sheffield.
 

JohnCarlson

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the site south of the River is currently occupied by the Crown Point Retail park. It's a low-rise development that used to house one of Leeds' original railway stations, which later became a parcels depot (as I recall). The site still has the approach in tact, which links into the Leeds south-east line out to Stourton and the M621.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Crown+Point+Retail+Park,+Junction+Street,+Leeds,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&sll=53.741909,-1.448135&sspn=0.072692,0.153637&vpsrc=0&hnear=Crown+Point+Retail+Park,+Junction+St,+Leeds,+West+Yorkshire+LS10+1ET,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=16

The site's easily long enough to drop down from the junction to a point beyond Great Wilson street where the line could tunnel under the river & head northeast, emerging somewhere near Shadwell. The only major engineering other than the tunnel would be the building of a Bridge to carry Great Wilson Street over the pit holding the station, with the station buildings being north of where Great Wilson Street/Hunslet Lane is now, and the area south of GW being the train shed.

This site would also give a junction somewhere west of Woodlesford, allowing HS2 to swing south & run east of Wakefield before heading south to Sheffield.



I suppose it could work. Leeds has been asking for a local tram/metro system for a while. I wonder if the tunnel could be used for that as well?

John
 

HSTEd

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How many additional platforms would actually be required?
How many trains could possibly be routed via Leeds?

What about building two through roads at Cross Gates (looks like they could fit between the platforms), and then extending all the electric suburban trains to Cross Gates to reduce dwell times at Leeds City (Possibly throw in the Settle and Carlisle too).
That way all trains can stop at Leeds City and it reduces the need for enormously expensive rebuild works.
 
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JohnCarlson

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How many additional platforms would actually be required?
How many trains could possibly be routed via Leeds?

What about building two through roads at Cross Gates (looks like they could fit between the platforms), and then extending all the electric suburban trains to Cross Gates to reduce dwell times at Leeds City (Possibly throw in the Settle and Carlisle too).
That way all trains can stop at Leeds City and it reduces the need for enormously expensive rebuild works.


I am not an expert on this by any means but there already exist plans to increase TPE and Northern services.

If we are talking of a high speed line south from Leeds then presumably there are going to be at least 8tph to make it viable. Although some of these services will be existing trains such as what are now Cross Country services but presumably there will be more and longer trains running through the station.


Best

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How many additional platforms would actually be required?
How many trains could possibly be routed via Leeds?

What about building two through roads at Cross Gates (looks like they could fit between the platforms), and then extending all the electric suburban trains to Cross Gates to reduce dwell times at Leeds City (Possibly throw in the Settle and Carlisle too).
That way all trains can stop at Leeds City and it reduces the need for enormously expensive rebuild works.

There is plenty of space for through roads at Crossgates. However many of the electric services already terminate in Bay platforms at Leeds. Having them continue on to Crossgates would make things worse at Leeds centra2. Sending those that terminate in the through platforms up to Crossgates while it tries to cope with what I would guess would be at least 8 400m Hs2 trains per hour would be like diverting all Kings Cross and St Pancras trains into Marleybone. :shock:

Best

John
 

Invincibles

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8 HS trains per hour?

I was thinking just two, adding to 2 trains per hour on the ECML, I think that would be enough from Leeds Central. These trains would not be the same length as HS2 standard trains to allow the platforms of classic stations to cope (the fleet of them would be large, as they would be running into many cities)

Leeds South East Parkway would see calls by potentially 3 trains per hour to London.

I think that should be sufficient service for Leeds to be honest.
 

Martin222002

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It makes absolute sense for the HS2 station for Leeds to be in the city centre and as close as possible to the current Leeds station, if not part of it, as Leeds station is a hub for services going all round West Yorkshire and beyond.

While I was waiting at Leeds station recently I was thinking where and how any HS2 platforms could be made part of the station, and the most obvious place is where the current car park is next to the current bay platforms. These HS2 platforms could be build at the same level as the main bridge at the south end of the station, allowing space underneath for the car park to be kept and any additional (conventional rail) bay platforms. This would also keep the HS2 line separate from the conventional lines, and allow them to pass over them before heading south.

A Leeds Parkway station could be built on the HS2 line linking to the ECML, but a parkway station on it's own is never going to have the same effect or patronage as a city centre based station.
 

LE Greys

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Linking this in with the TPX electrification, I look forward to seeing HS2 trains calling at York before too long. It might cause some problems with pathing, but one to Newcastle and one to Edinburgh would be enough. EC could cut back one of their Edinburgh services to York, but would continue running through with the other one, also with the Aberdeen and Inverness extensions.

Incidentally, what's left of Leeds Central? EC services and certain others from the old GNR or GCR lines south of Leeds could terminate there, clearing space for HS2. That is, if there is any room on the site still.
 

Waverley125

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While I was waiting at Leeds station recently I was thinking where and how any HS2 platforms could be made part of the station, and the most obvious place is where the current car park is next to the current bay platforms. These HS2 platforms could be build at the same level as the main bridge at the south end of the station, allowing space underneath for the car park to be kept and any additional (conventional rail) bay platforms. This would also keep the HS2 line separate from the conventional lines, and allow them to pass over them before heading south.

Not feasible, as this would require HS2 to climb sharply over the Airedale, Wakefield and Huddersfield lines to head south, which it has no corridor to do so in. It'd also require demolition of both concourses & the Queens Hotel, while the undercroft is already used, partly as the bridge over the Leeds-Liverpool Canal & River Aire, partly as carparking for Granary Wharf, the development immediately southwest of the station.

Like it or not, a city centre station will have to be at Crown Point. Given the Tetley's Brewery on the site is being mostly demolished (and ASDA's national HQ, due south of City station, is expected to be demolished soon as well, with them moving to a new HQ elsewhere in the city), there's be a very easy route from City-Crown Point, by building a wide pedestrian boulevard, a new footbridge over the Aire, and a southeastern entrance to the station where the footbridge/Service bridge triangle is. Platform-Platform time would be about 5 minutes, which I think is quite reasonable.

with regard to TPE electrification, this will probably require the widening of the East Leeds viaduct, especially if TPE's desire of a Leeds-Manchester service every 10 mins, and a Leeds-York service every 15 minutes, comes to fruition. This is suprisingly unproblematic, with one small office block requiring demolition, one street being shut down, realignment at Nerville Hill, and a rebuilding of Garforth, East Garforth and Micklefield stations. This would make using the eastern approach as a way north very difficult, so I'd expect to see the Newcastle extension tunnelling out to Shadwell, before heading non-stop due north to Newcastle. So no HS2 trains for York.
 

LE Greys

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Not feasible, as this would require HS2 to climb sharply over the Airedale, Wakefield and Huddersfield lines to head south, which it has no corridor to do so in. It'd also require demolition of both concourses & the Queens Hotel, while the undercroft is already used, partly as the bridge over the Leeds-Liverpool Canal & River Aire, partly as carparking for Granary Wharf, the development immediately southwest of the station.

Like it or not, a city centre station will have to be at Crown Point. Given the Tetley's Brewery on the site is being mostly demolished (and ASDA's national HQ, due south of City station, is expected to be demolished soon as well, with them moving to a new HQ elsewhere in the city), there's be a very easy route from City-Crown Point, by building a wide pedestrian boulevard, a new footbridge over the Aire, and a southeastern entrance to the station where the footbridge/Service bridge triangle is. Platform-Platform time would be about 5 minutes, which I think is quite reasonable.

with regard to TPE electrification, this will probably require the widening of the East Leeds viaduct, especially if TPE's desire of a Leeds-Manchester service every 10 mins, and a Leeds-York service every 15 minutes, comes to fruition. This is suprisingly unproblematic, with one small office block requiring demolition, one street being shut down, realignment at Nerville Hill, and a rebuilding of Garforth, East Garforth and Micklefield stations. This would make using the eastern approach as a way north very difficult, so I'd expect to see the Newcastle extension tunnelling out to Shadwell, before heading non-stop due north to Newcastle. So no HS2 trains for York.

Which doesn't make much sense from the point of view of a passenger heading north from Peterborough, although presumably they'll get as far as Leeds first, then use the ECML for a few years until the new line is ready for use. If the new section avoids York, the obvious route is via Ripon, or at least near by. This would mean threading the line through Harrogate (which is not going to be popular). There's the potential for an Ashford-style station at Darlington, then the line would run somewhere near the Leamside alignment, to avoid having to go through Durham, and link up with the ECML around the Tyne Yard area. That causes some capacity problems with the Tyne bridges and adds extra traffic through Berwick (unless we get another new section running inland).

I might be getting ahead of myself here...
 

Waverley125

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Which doesn't make much sense from the point of view of a passenger heading north from Peterborough, although presumably they'll get as far as Leeds first, then use the ECML for a few years until the new line is ready for use. If the new section avoids York, the obvious route is via Ripon, or at least near by. This would mean threading the line through Harrogate (which is not going to be popular). There's the potential for an Ashford-style station at Darlington, then the line would run somewhere near the Leamside alignment, to avoid having to go through Durham, and link up with the ECML around the Tyne Yard area. That causes some capacity problems with the Tyne bridges and adds extra traffic through Berwick (unless we get another new section running inland).

I might be getting ahead of myself here...

HS2 isn't being designed to provide all the connections the classic lines do, it's being designed to provide fast, high capacity service between major centres. Places like Peterborough, Darlington etc. will get a better classic service because of this. HS2's eastern arm (and personally I support a 'cut the corner' line quite soon after the main between North London & the Easr Midlands, should be designed to serve:

Nottingham (branch off to Midland, terminating only)
Sheffield (through station)
Leeds (Through station)
Teeside (Parkway)
Newcastle (Through & terminal)
Edinburgh (Through)
Dundee (through)
Aberdeen)

The route I'd envisage would leave the Leeds NE tunnel somewhere around Shadwell, heading NNE passing west of Wetherby and east of Knaresborough, running up the vale of York before heading slightly northeast to a Parkway near Durham Tees Valley airport, with Rapid Transit links into Darlington & the Teesdie conurbation, before heading northwest around Durham to Blaydon, where it could cross the Tyne and use the old alignment into Newcastle Central along the river. The alternative would be to tunnel under Gateshead, use a parallel alignment to the TWMetro to get under Central station, have a station there & then continue north before turning NW to Edinburgh.
 

LE Greys

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HS2 isn't being designed to provide all the connections the classic lines do <snip>

And therein lies the biggest weakness. HS2 is being set up far too close to the French model of high-speed lines and not like the German model, despite the fact that our population density and settlement patterns are far more like Germany than France. Really, we should be thinking of it as an addition to the existing network rather than an all-new system. Collecting passengers at York and taking them to Edinburgh in a faster time (ideally 90 minutes) would be a far better use of the new line than simply racing straight to Newcastle and Edinburgh, as would putting a station in Darlington for connections with local services.

I really, really want HS2 to succeed, but I don't think it will unless we look more to Germany for inspiration than France.

Oh yes, and ICE fares are much more integrated with everything else in Germany. Will I be able to travel on HS2 on a off-peak return?
 

HSTEd

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HS2 isn't being designed to provide all the connections the classic lines do, it's being designed to provide fast, high capacity service between major centres. Places like Peterborough, Darlington etc. will get a better classic service because of this.

By better "Classic" service you mean slower trains stopping at all stations with fewer amenities that will all be truncated to Doncaster or York?

Sounds like a pretty crummy deal to me.

Retford/Newark/Grantham doesn't need additional "local" trains, because there is nowhere to run them to.

We are following the French model when our population density and distribution is far more suited to the German or Japanese model (more stations closer together).
 

Nym

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Hence why in any plans I am knocking together, the current 'reigonal' destinations remain to be served by HSCC stock, such as Huddersfeild, Hull Paragon, Skipton, Bradford Interchange, etc.

Since by what I'd have would be an HSCaptive route to Leeds, and Classic Compatable stock joining the ECML at Doncaster, with Leeds - York current route being used by CC Stock for through services (XC)

Then the 4tph up that arm of HS2 would form up as..

2tph Leeds - Euston Captive
2tph to Doncaster
Front portion continuing to Newcastle or Edinbrugh
Rear portion continuing to Hull via Selby, Harrogate via York, Leeds via Wakefeild etc.
That would allow Hull and Harrogate to each have 1tph and the other 1tph rear portion continuing onto Leeds and then onwards to Bradford Interchange, Skipton etc. as a 200m long Classic Compatable set, there is also scope to have CC Sets run on the capive network into Leeds and reverse out for W Yorks destinations.
But in conclusion, lots of Classsic Compatable stock and plugging into the ECML at Doncaster means off route services can continue. With the main ECML being served by 1tph Leeds, 1tph York (Newcastle / Edinbrugh) 1tp2h Lincoln, 1tp2h Nottingham, etc etc.
 

JohnCarlson

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8 HS trains per hour?

I was thinking just two, adding to 2 trains per hour on the ECML, I think that would be enough from Leeds Central. These trains would not be the same length as HS2 standard trains to allow the platforms of classic stations to cope (the fleet of them would be large, as they would be running into many cities)

Leeds South East Parkway would see calls by potentially 3 trains per hour to London.

I think that should be sufficient service for Leeds to be honest.


I would presume there would be at least the two Leeds to London services that run now and the two Newcastle to London trains which you seem to think should be diverted from the ECML. These would have to be full length HS2 trains to keep the capacity of the Birmingham London section up. Then between Leeds and Birmingham there would likely be the two cross country services that run at present.

Without wanting to spread into a debate on immigration/ green policies it is likely there will be far more people in the country by the time HS2 is finished to Leeds and less access to petrol. The demand for seats on these trains could be huge. Indeed if you were to cut the price of seats today by a third I would expect demand to rocket.

As the HS2 outline is in the shape of a "Y" I expect many of the services on the lines North of Birmingham to be local or regional services.

To be hones I would expect the ECML to be used by the best p[lace to run the shorter classic services from places like Harogate an Skipton.
 
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