High Speed Upgrade oddities

[talldave]

Gravesend seems to be penalised by having the highest priced HS Upgrade ticket prices which is weird since it's closer to London than stations with cheaper Upgrades.

Any reason why I couldn't use a Strood HS Upgrade from Gravesend? Maidstone West is cheaper still, whilst a Birchington HUC seems a positively irresistible bargain.

I guess the only other problem would be how to buy them?

 

[thebigcheese]

Researching high speed fares a while ago I came across this rule on this page

Please ensure that the origin and destination stations on your supplement match those on your original ticket.

Which would seem to quash the ability to just buy a cheap upgrade from further afield.

 

[talldave]

Researching high speed fares a while ago I came across this rule on this page



Which would seem to quash the ability to just buy a cheap upgrade from further afield.

I spotted that too after posting, but how does that fit in with the NRCoC?

 

[thebigcheese]

I'd have to defer that question to more knowledgeable members but I suspect it's a moot point as to buy one with an origin of Strood you'd have to get one from the ticket office or the ticket machine there which wouldn't save any money. I suppose you might be able to buy one from the on board train manager and claim you broke your journey at Gravesend but how that would work in practice...

 

[jopsuk]

I don't think an upgrade would count as a ticket as such under NRCoC (which rule specifically are you trying to invoke?) hence you have to defer to the specific T&Cs- which are on the up-to-fate version of the page thebigcheese found. They're quite clear that the supplement must match the ticket

 

[talldave]

I don't think an upgrade would count as a ticket as such under NRCoC (which rule specifically are you trying to invoke?) hence you have to defer to the specific T&Cs- which are on the up-to-fate version of the page thebigcheese found. They're quite clear that the supplement must match the ticket

I was thinking of rule 16: "...You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket.....".

However, having looked closer at the fares, I see they're just pricing the Upgrade at the difference between PLUS HIGH SPEED and NOT VALID ON HS1 tickets - the equivalent of cashing in one ticket for the other without a £10 fee. So in effect, although the Upgrade from Gravesend is the highest price, it would suggest that Gravesend travellers are getting the best value NOT VALID ON HS1 tickets!

 

[causton]

However, having looked closer at the fares, I see they're just pricing the Upgrade at the difference between PLUS HIGH SPEED and NOT VALID ON HS1 tickets - the equivalent of cashing in one ticket for the other without a £10 fee

If this was simply done as an excess there would be no £10 fee. The fares are just in the system to avoid manually calculating these fares, I presume.

 

[yorkie]

An Anytime Day Return from Gravesend to London Terminals is £32.20 via HS1, or £24.00 avoiding HS1. The difference is £4.10 each way.

An Off Peak Day Return from Gravesend to London Terminals is £16.40 via HS1, or £12/70 avoiding HS1. The difference is £1.85 each way.

However the upgrade is £4.10 each way; this is too expensive when holding an Off Peak Day Return.

For a change of route excess, no more than the difference (or half, in the case of a return, in one direction) should be charged.

Any more than that would appear to be a breach of the NRCoC.

If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b)
above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would
have entitled you to travel by that rou

I would insist that the excess is charged, and no more.

Have you complained to Southeastern? If they do not rectify it, you can report a breach of consumer law to the ORR, and a breach of the NRCoC (compliance with which is a franchise commitment) to the DfT.

 

[talldave]

Hi Yorkie

I got Anytime £32.20/£24.00, which gives £8.20, equal to the return upgrade and Off Peak £16.40/£12.20, which gives £4.20, again the same as the return upgrade. It's the same difference for singles.

What's irritating is that the normal tickets can be discounted with an Annual Gold Card but Upgrades can't be. I think that's a bit unfair and might ask them about that.

I've accepted that the St Pancras to Birchington upgrade at 40p is never going to work to anywhere else!

 

[paul1609]

If a Gold Card Discount was allowed on HS Supplements lots of people from further out would buy non HS season tickets and then use the discounted supplement to get home.
A supplement is not a change of route excess because a HS ticket allows extra validity over the non HS ticket. i.e. travel to Farringdon and St Pancras.

 

[yorkie]

If a Gold Card Discount was allowed on HS Supplements lots of people from further out would buy non HS season tickets and then use the discounted supplement to get home.
A supplement is not a change of route excess because a HS ticket allows extra validity over the non HS ticket. i.e. travel to Farringdon and St Pancras.

If all you want is to change route, rather than additional validity to Farringdon, insist on the excess instead of the supplement

But surely that same argument could be used against, say, "route via High Wycombe" vs "route Any Permitted" tickets; the latter giving access to Euston. It's a route restriction, so a change of route excess must be made available.

 

[A1]

As I lost my battle with them doing something similar, (the thread is here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110237 ), I doubt this will work with them.

 

[yorkie]

As I lost my battle with them doing something similar, (the thread is here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110237 ), I doubt this will work with them.

Refer the matter to Transport Focus or London Travelwatch (as appropriate)

If they are mis-selling, or refusing to sell fares, then report a breach of consumer law to ORR [email protected]

Most people give up. The train companies know this, so they aint bothered. We need to change that.

 

[A1]

Refer the matter to Transport Focus or London Travelwatch (as appropriate)

If they are mis-selling, or refusing to sell fares, then report a breach of consumer law to ORR [email protected]

Most people give up. The train companies know this, so they aint bothered. We need to change that.

I referred to TF with very good evidence why I was in the right, but was denied. I'll discuss over PM if you think I should push it further, but as it was a Year ago, I doubt I'll have any success unless I do the same and risk a penalty fare.

 

[paul1609]

If all you want is to change route, rather than additional validity to Farringdon, insist on the excess instead of the supplement

But surely that same argument could be used against, say, "route via High Wycombe" vs "route Any Permitted" tickets; the latter giving access to Euston. It's a route restriction, so a change of route excess must be made available.

Not really both Euston and Marylebone are London Terminals stations from say Birmingham, St Pancras is not from Kent stations unless you buy a HS Supplement.
Personally I think that there are a lot of injustices on the fares system and that they would be best rectified with a blue sky system but as well as dealing with issues on the south east regional railways it needs to deal with issues like the ultra cheap ticketing in PTE areas and Ultra Cheap Advance tickets on the ex intercity routes in to London.
Why should an advance ticket from York to London be cheaper than a single from stations like Huntingdon if there is unsold capacity on the intercity service why just not stop it at the outer suburban stops where the seats will be taken at the higher fare?

 

[yorkie]

Not really both Euston and Marylebone are London Terminals stations from say Birmingham, St Pancras is not from Kent stations unless you buy a HS Supplement.

The principle is exactly the same; there is a fare available that allows travel via that route, and NRCoC stipulates an excess fare should be charged. If a supplement is the same - or lower - price than an excess fare, then that's fine. But the existence of a supplement does not change the entitlement under the NRCoC.

Personally I think that there are a lot of injustices on the fares system and that they would be best rectified with a blue sky system but as well as dealing with issues on the south east regional railways it needs to deal with issues like the ultra cheap ticketing in PTE areas and Ultra Cheap Advance tickets on the ex intercity routes in to London.
Why should an advance ticket from York to London be cheaper than a single from stations like Huntingdon if there is unsold capacity on the intercity service why just not stop it at the outer suburban stops where the seats will be taken at the higher fare?

Very true indeed, but this is really a matter for another thread.