Higher fare when engineering work forces a diversion (GA)

[jon0844]

Today, I went from Cheshunt to Stratford and used my Oyster card.

Engineering work meant having to via Liverpool St (trains were going via Seven Sisters, so unable to go to Stratford).

At Liverpool Street, I realised I couldn't just change from the WAML platforms to the GEML ones without going through the gates, so I asked an RPI (who was just finishing off dealing with someone else) if there was a way to get to a train to 'go back' to Stratford, without touching out/in in zone 1 and being charged a higher fare.

I explained I had to go via LST as there were no direct trains and I would have only paid for Cheshunt to Zone 3 if they had been running.

He refused and said I'd have to go out normally and pay to travel via zone 1. He said that engineering work had been advertised well in advance (perhaps it had, but I am not a regular GA user so only found out this morning when I checked online - I don't make a habit of checking every bit of work that a TOC might be doing months in advance) and so he said I had a choice over whether to travel or not.

Is this possibly accurate when it comes to Oyster? Of course Oyster can't know that I didn't just decide to go to Liverpool Street and will charge accordingly - but when this sort of thing happens, what are you meant to do if staff can't deal with the problem?

My wife didn't have her Oyster and bought a paper ticket. This was marked 'Not via London' and worked the gate fine at Liverpool Street, so surely that wasn't valid? How could it work the gate?!

 

[IanD]

I would ring the Oyster helpline and ask for a refund. They should be able to tell you only touched out at Liverpool Street to change to a Stratford train.

 

[jon0844]

I am going to wait until my journey shows up on the history (nothing as yet - perhaps not until after midnight?) before calling up, as part of me says it's not worth the bother if it's just a small difference.

However, I might seek clarification from GA about what their policy is, given the fact that it's not really my fault I had to take another route, and which they told me I had to take - and a route that took longer too.

Of course, if they suggest I shouldn't travel if I don't want to pay more, that's fine with me.

I presume they only want to sell paper tickets and won't have any idea how to deal with Oyster.

 

[34D]

The helpline do seem to be pretty good, so all being well they will give a refund.

HOWEVER I have read threads on here about an auto refund happening for people in certain circumatances.

 

[jon0844]

Let me see and post the journey history before doing anything then.

I believe the single fare should have been £2.60 (so £5.20 return) according to the TfL website. My wife paid £6.25 with Network Railcard.

I wish I could remember what my balance was before travelling!

 

[Be3G]

We once made a preemptive enquiry with the Oyster helpdesk for exactly the same situation: being forced to travel to Stratford via Liverpool Street during engineering works. They said that we could try what you did (asking the GA staff to be let through the barriers), but if not, they'd happily provide a refund. In the end I think we didn't travel or used paper tickets instead, so no fiddling with Oysters was required, but I hope that can provide some reassurance anyway.

Frankly I find the GA RPI's assertion that you had a choice about whether to travel or not rather displeasing. What would he have said to someone with an Oyster non-zone-1 season ticket, for example? A touch-out at LST would immediately cause an unwanted fare. GA, as a TOC, have a responsibility to get you from A to B and I think it's fairly clear from the ways the railways work that you shouldn't have to pay more for such a privilege just because there're engineering works. Granted, the fact that with PAYG a contract hasn't been formed in such a way as it has with a paper ticket might affect the legalities, but morally I believe my points stands. A response of ‘sorry, that's against the rules and my supervisor would tell me off!’ would be understandable; ‘that's your problem, you could have decided not to travel’ is not.

 

[yorkie]

I wish I could remember what my balance was before travelling!

Have you registered with Oyster online? If so that'll tell you all, and your journey history will be there in around 24 hours.

If not, I thoroughly recommend signing up.

If you have to chase Greater Anglia for a refund of the extra you should not have had to pay, an email to Customer Services generates an automatic reference number. This can then be passed on to Passenger Focus if necessary, and I can ask a contact who has had good results asking a particularly helpful person at GA to look into problems reported by forum members, leading to their satisfactory resolution.

 

[jon0844]

Yes I am registered. I was charged £3.90 each way and now have the journey history as of this morning.

The difference is minimal so I'd rather take my time sorting this problem out with GA than simply getting a refund. I think it's a principle thing now.

 

[IanD]

Yes I am registered. I was charged £3.90 each way and now have the journey history as of this morning.

The difference is minimal so I'd rather take my time sorting this problem out with GA than simply getting a refund. I think it's a principle thing now.

The difference is minimal - or it's 50% more than you should have been charged depending on how you look at it.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I think the "Touch out and claim back later" is a better approach than just letting people through. Otherwise you will get some people abusing the system and not actually going to Stratford but still avoiding the Zone 1&2 charges. I guess that sounds rather harsh, but some fare evaders just makes one lose trust with passengers!

 

[jon0844]

If I hadn't touched out, having been let out, I'd be charged £4.90 (as debited when I touched in at Cheshunt). So that wouldn't be a very effective fraud as I would pay more than touching out.

Pay more and claim back sounds much like being talked into accepting an invalid PF because you can appeal it later. Hassle for the passenger that is unnecessary.

However, ordinarily I'd agree that fare evaders are the reason everyone else suffers. I just don't think this is the case or an excuse here.

 

[jopsuk]

to insert a bit of code into the system that is switched on during engineering works to automatically allow anyone using this route to be charged the fare they'd have been charged via the other route would be far more complex than you think- it's amazing how a seemingly innocuous section of code can have have far reaching consequences with bugs...

 

[jon0844]

The easiest thing would be to let someone out and back in. Even if it meant scanning Oyster cards with a 'wand' to confirm that the person had touched in, and wasn't merely wanting a free ride.

If someone has touched in, then failing to touch out would cost £4.90 instead of £3.90 so it would be rather pointless.

I agree that changing the software to cope with engineering work is a bit much - but there was a far easier 'solution'.

My mistake, perhaps, was speaking to an RPI on the platform instead of asking the man at the gate. On the way back, I just let myself through the wide gate (I had my son in his buggy) as there wasn't anyone nearby - and it's weird that there's no ticket/Oyster validator on them (just a Oyster validator on the platform side). In effect, if I'd been brazen enough I could have just let myself out and back in anyway.

Update: I've used the online form to ask GA for their policy on engineering work and Oyster, mentioning the fact that the RPI told me I'd accepted having to pay more by travelling - and my wife being sold a ticket at the cheaper, direct, fare.

BTW, here's my journey history (nothing unexpected of course).

Saturday, 08 June 2013
£7.80 daily total

14:57 - 15:49	Stratford to Cheshunt [National Rail]	 £3.90 £22.00
15:49	Touch out, Cheshunt [National Rail]	+£1.00	£22.00
15:15	Touch in, Liverpool Street [National Rail]	£2.70	£21.00
15:13	Touch out, Liverpool Street [National Rail]	+£2.70	£23.70
14:57	Touch in, Stratford	£4.90	£21.00

11:14 - 12:14	Cheshunt [National Rail] to Stratford	 £3.90 £25.90
12:14	Touch out, Stratford	+£1.00	£25.90
11:55	Touch in, Liverpool Street [National Rail]	£1.00	£24.90
11:51	Touch out, Liverpool Street [National Rail]	+£1.00	£25.90
11:14	Touch in, Cheshunt [National Rail]	£4.90	£24.90

 

[aleph_0]

Don't Oyster have the ability to auto-reconcile/adjust journeys afterwards? I'm sure it's been mentioned at some stations when big events are on, people are let through the barriers, and things are fixed later (I guess there are problems about adjustments expiring, maybe).

In which case, surely Greater Anglia should be proactive, firstly, instructing staff to let such passengers through the barriers (checking ticket with handheld reader), and also asking Oyster to adjust journeys for any passengers taking a different route because of engineering works?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Engineering work meant having to via Liverpool St (trains were going via Seven Sisters, so unable to go to Stratford)....

....I explained I had to go via LST as there were no direct trains and I would have only paid for Cheshunt to Zone 3 if they had been running.....

I can't answer any of the oyster questions, as it is not something I have enough knowledge on, but this bit struck me as odd. Did GA not provide any service via the direct route?

....My wife didn't have her Oyster and bought a paper ticket. This was marked 'Not via London' and worked the gate fine at Liverpool Street, so surely that wasn't valid? How could it work the gate?!

Depends how the ticket barrier is programmed. If it is programmed to let anything pass (proving you have a ticket, even if it isn't valid by that route), it will let any ticket through.

 

[jon0844]

Oyster does advertise auto refunds in London (telling you to register your card online), and I wondered how that worked - but if it's around a specific event or diversionary route for TfL related engineering work at weekends - then it makes sense. Otherwise, it would have to be really clever or psychic!

If I get a spare minute or three, I'll phone up to try and get £2.60 back. I am however more interested in seeing what GA has to say, both about the incident and how it will recommend I deal with such a scenario again in the future.

The easy hassle-free option is to buy a paper ticket next time there's a diversion, but Oyster is cheaper than even a discounted ticket and far cheaper than the standard ticket price. Yet in the few minutes I was at Cheshunt, everyone was using a paper ticket but me - so either they're all buying super off peak travelcards (if GA sell these) or aren't aware that Oyster can be a LOT cheaper and also offers more flexibility.

I can't answer any of the oyster questions, as it is not something I have enough knowledge on, but this bit struck me as odd. Did GA not provide any service via the direct route?

No, services couldn't run via Tottenham Hale - thus, not go off to Stratford either. All trains went via Seven Sisters. As a consequence, due to restricted paths, the 'fast' train from Cambridge into LST wasn't very fast once it caught up with a slow from Hertford East. It made good progress for about 5 minutes leaving Cheshunt before crawling almost all the way - but at least it had only one stop before LST, which was good when you have a recently walking toddler wanting to explore the train!

I only noticed there were no trains when I checked my app at about 1030, and by then we were already in Cheshunt.

Depends how the ticket barrier is programmed. If it is programmed to let anything pass (proving you have a ticket, even if it isn't valid by that route), it will let any ticket through.

I have to assume they'd changed things temporarily for the engineering work, as otherwise you'd easily be able to get into Zone 1 with a ticket for a Zone 3 station on a regular basis.

 

[IanD]

What about Cheshunt-Seven Sisters-Highbury & Islington-Stratford? Or was it another joined-up weekend with London Oveground not running on the NLL?

 

[jon0844]

Didn't consider that option. I expect my wife would have then had some hassle with her ticket too?

Also, with a buggy I am not sure how accessible Seven Sisters is for the tube - and Highbury & Islington certainly isn't step free.

There were LO trains at Stratford. Didn't see any actually moving mind, but they were there and one had a driver in it - so I presume they were running!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....No, services couldn't run via Tottenham Hale - thus, not go off to Stratford either. All trains went via Seven Sisters. As a consequence, due to restricted paths, the 'fast' train from Cambridge into LST wasn't very fast once it caught up with a slow from Hertford East. It made good progress for about 5 minutes leaving Cheshunt before crawling almost all the way - but at least it had only one stop before LST, which was good when you have a recently walking toddler wanting to explore the train!....

Not even a bus replacement?

 

[jon0844]

Not even a bus replacement?

No. The website clearly stated that the way to get to Stratford was via Liverpool Street.

Given the fact that every train went to LST (so a better service than 2tph to Stratford) and there's a train every 4-5 minutes from LST to Stratford (one stop), I can't imagine buses being quicker than this, and it would be an unnecessary expense for GA.

To be honest, I can't imagine how GA could manage bus replacements from a station like Cheshunt. It's a nightmare for the one bus that already serves it! It would also mean more staff to manage confused passengers - most of whom were probably going to LST or wanting the tube at Seven Sisters or Tottenham Hale anyway.

I am not sure what other stations along the line, from Waltham Cross onwards, which didn't have trains did for passengers. Maybe there was a bus for these people, or they were simply advised to use local buses to travel to the nearest alternative station? I didn't think to look.

 

[MikeWh]

What should happen is that all journeys using the OSI at Liverpool Street on that day where a direct train would normally have been used should trigger an automatic refund. If you are due one you'll get an email after a couple of days telling you where it can be picked up from. If it was TfL work then that would almost certainly happen; GA could ask for the same treatment if they wanted to.

 

[Be3G]

Not even a bus replacement?

The only time I've ever known there to be a replacement bus from the West Anglia mainline to Stratford was when the Tottenham to Stratford line was closed for several months a few years ago now. I caught it once – it took forever!

I am not sure what other stations along the line, from Waltham Cross onwards, which didn't have trains did for passengers. Maybe there was a bus for these people, or they were simply advised to use local buses to travel to the nearest alternative station? I didn't think to look.

It was the latter, with ticket acceptance arranged for TfL buses. Waltham Cross passengers were advised to use Theobalds Grove (a bit of a walk for people who might've approached WLC from the east!), Enfield Lock -> Turkey Street and so on. I wanted to travel northbound from Waltham Cross that day to take advantage of cheaper fares when starting outside the London zones but didn't fancy the walk from Waltham Cross bus station to Theobalds Grove (it would have added more time to an already long journey), so ended up using my local Turkey Street instead. Might have even passed by you travelling in the opposite direction.

 

[87015]

What should happen is that all journeys using the OSI at Liverpool Street on that day where a direct train would normally have been used should trigger an automatic refund. If you are due one you'll get an email after a couple of days telling you where it can be picked up from. If it was TfL work then that would almost certainly happen; GA could ask for the same treatment if they wanted to.

Yes - the TOCs have to ask. Most don't appear to despite TfL running a day explaning all the details, options and requirements a while back and sending out the odd request for advance info. They can do a huge amount of things quite simply but sadly they are rarely turned on! This is exactly the sort of thing the system is there to provide...

 

[jon0844]

After emailing GA via their website a week ago, I today got an acknowledgement that they've received the email and apologising:

Thank you for contacting Greater Anglia. We have received your correspondence dated 10 June 2013 and we aim to respond to you as soon as we can.

Our target is to answer 90% of all contacts within 10 working days. However, in order for us to fully answer your comments, I have asked for your comments to be investigated. This may take longer than our usual response target, but I will be in touch again once this investigation is complete.

If you do wish to contact me in the meantime, please quote the reference number GA-130610-XXXX.

I am in no rush, but I was rather concerned that my submission (which had shown as accepted online but not followed up by any email) had in fact disappeared.

 

[jon0844]

Here's their response. Any ideas how to escalate this?

Greater Anglia Customer Relations

[email protected]

Case Ref: GA-130610-xxxx

Date: 25-Jun-13

To: Mr Morris

Email: xxxx

……………………………………………………………………………………………….

*

Dear Mr Morris,

*

Thank you for your recent email.

I was very sorry to read of the difficulty you encountered due to engineering works between London Stratford and Cheshunt on the 22nd June 2013.

I can appreciate and do sympathise that having paid a higher fare to travel between Stratford London and Cheshunt Station, you are very frustrated having been charged an additional £1.40 over and above the usual fare paid of £3.90 due to the service being diverted via Seven Sisters. With this in mind, please accept my most sincere apologies for the inconvenience caused.

A modified train service was provided on this day in order for Network Rail to undertake essential maintenance work. Although disruption to our customers cannot be avoided altogether, these tend to be scheduled at the weekend or on Bank Holidays when fewer passengers are travelling overall.

We do try our best to inform passengers in advance of the alterations that will be in place. This information is displayed at our stations, on our website www.greateranglia.co.uk and via twitter (@greateranglia). We also provide details of service alterations to local radio and news agencies. Alternatively you are welcome to contact us on 0845 600 7245 to check travel times.

For future reference, if you chose to travel during the engineering works, which are advertised in advance, and this rerouting is via zone 1, then unfortunately you will be expected to pay the additional fare. With this in mind, I would kindly suggest checking in advance for any service alterations that may affect your routing and more importantly, the costing.

I can appreciate that this letter does little to alleviate your disappointment but please accept my most sincere apologies for the inconvenience caused on this occasion which I hope, will not deter you from using our services again.

Yours sincerely,


Laura Englestone

Customer Relations Advisor

Greater Anglia

I hope they don't now seek to punish my wife for paying the standard fare on a paper ticket when going via London! The above states she should have paid more!! :banghead:

 

[IanD]

Yet paper tickets at the lower price were being sold and accepted. That's not right.

 

[jon0844]

Has any TOC ever sold different priced tickets during diversions for engineering work? And how would they price it? My thought is that they haven't, wouldn't, and couldn't.

I'm rather surprised GA believes this, but it's what the RPI thought too - so exposes a bigger problem.

 

[greatkingrat]

If they had provided a replacement bus I could understand them saying you have to pay more if you choose to go via Liverpool Street, but if that is the only option then you shouldn't be penalised.

London Travelwatch seem the most appropriate place to take this further.

 

[jon0844]

Giving them one more chance to redeem themselves.

Dear Ms Englestone,

Thank you for your reply - and apologies for my own late response, as I have been away on holiday.

I do have to say that I am rather surprised at your response, and your suggestion that planned engineering work could ever make someone pay more to travel.

I would be most grateful if you could point out to me where this policy is shown in 'The Manual' or the NRCoC, as it does not make any sense at all. Especially, given the fact that my wife travelled with an ordinary paper ticket and still paid the same fare - but was able to travel via Zone 1 because of the blockade.

What you have stated means my wife actually paid too little! Would this mean she could have been liable for a penalty fare (or worse) for travelling off route? If true, that would be rather worrying as that was the ticket sold at Cheshunt by a member of staff fully aware of the work taking place.

Having carried out my own investigation, it would seem that you should in fact notify TfL in advance of engineering work that might affect Oyster users - which, by your own admission, was advertised well in advance.

For dealing with passengers using an Out of Station Interchange (OSI) where engineering work has prevented a direct train being available, notifying TfL enables Oyster to issue an automatic refund. This would have prevented me from being overcharged.

I'm also told that all TOCs have been notified of this and are encouraged to notify TfL in advance. Therefore you have overcharged me for my journey.

I feel it only fair to give you a further opportunity to clarify and seek to resolve the situation before I intend to refer this to London TravelWatch and Transport for London.

I do not generally check engineering work weeks or months in advance on lines I don't regularly use, nor would I expect any other occasional leisure traveller to. The decision to travel on GA from Cheshunt to Stratford was made on the day. It was only a short time before travel that I checked real time information and discovered the engineering work that meant going via Liverpool Street.

We accepted the increased journey time, but did not expect to have any problems with the fares. Had my wife had her Oyster card, you would have had two people being overcharged. I suspect there will have been other Oyster users overcharged too.

Therefore, I now feel it is important to ensure that not only is my individual issue resolved, but that it cannot happen again in the future. This also includes retraining of staff on the ground, such as the RPI that advised me that I could have chosen not to travel if I wasn't happy to pay more!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Update: 6th July

Well, what do you know!

Got a letter in the post this morning, where they 'looked at the case in greater detail' and decided to give me rail vouchers for £2.60 as a goodwill gesture.

Thus, GA is clearly not admitting its mistake, or acknowledging the fact that it can't make people pay more, and will presumably continue to do nothing to resolve the problem happening again during future engineering works.

 

[yorksrob]

7
Frankly I find the GA RPI's assertion that you had a choice about whether to travel or not rather displeasing. What would he have said to someone with an Oyster non-zone-1 season ticket, for example?

I agree entirely. The railway is a public transport network, not a McDonalds. It's not for railway officials to pontificate on the travellers decision to travel or not. I suspect that this is an individual misjudgement rather than company policy.