• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Highland Chieftain strikes length of CWR left foul after engineering work, 25 Feb 2018

Status
Not open for further replies.

Millisle

Member
Joined
7 Jul 2013
Messages
233
Location
Lockerbie, Dumfriesshire
There is an article about this on the Highlands and Islands page of the Scotland page of the BBC News website published yesterday, with a graphic photograph from the forward camera a moment before. It must have been alarming for the driver.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-43459118
A passenger train struck the end of a piece of rail left on a track following engineering work, the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) has said.

The Virgin Trains East Coast train, which had left Inverness bound for London, knocked the 130m (425ft) long rail clear.

The train did not derail and was not damaged in the incident on 25 February at Cradlehall, near Inverness.

Urgent safety advice has been issued by the RAIB to Network Rail.

ScotRail Alliance, which Network Rail Scotland is part of, said it carried out a full investigation after the incident and had taken "immediate steps to highlight the seriousness to all our employees".

The RAIB said there were three similar incidents in England between 2014 and 2017.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,845
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"

Mugby

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2012
Messages
1,923
Location
Derby
Looking at the CCTV image, it's a miracle that the rail end was knocked clear, presumably into the four foot. If it had been knocked the other way, over the running rail towards the cess, it would have resulted in a certain and most likely catastrophic derailment.

It illustrates a frightening lack of care and attention by whatever parties were involved in the engineering work.
 

alxndr

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2015
Messages
1,474
Looking at the CCTV image, it's a miracle that the rail end was knocked clear, presumably into the four foot. If it had been knocked the other way, over the running rail towards the cess, it would have resulted in a certain and most likely catastrophic derailment.

According to the Urgent Safety Advice it was levered into the cess:

On 25 February 2018 at about 09:47hrs, a train from Inverness to London, travelling at about 53 mph (85 km/h), struck the end of a piece of rail about 130 metres (425 feet) long, which had been left on the up line at Cradlehall, a short distance south of Inverness. This was the first train to pass over the route that day.

The train pushed the whole length of rail aside into the cess and so did not derail. The rail had been moved from the cess on the opposite side of the line during engineering work which took place the previous night.

It's surprising, but I can picture how it could have just flopped over. Must have been utterly terrifying for the driver though, to have to grind their way along it. If it had been squarer on to the wheel it might have been a different story.

I do wonder how long the possession was, I'm not a fan of this trend of ever longer possessions At all
 

westcoaster

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2006
Messages
4,236
Location
DTOS A or B
Looking at the CCTV image, it's a miracle that the rail end was knocked clear, presumably into the four foot. If it had been knocked the other way, over the running rail towards the cess, it would have resulted in a certain and most likely catastrophic derailment.

It illustrates a frightening lack of care and attention by whatever parties were involved in the engineering work.
Was knocked into the cess according to other reports, the lifeguards did there intended job. And why it is important they are there during the train prep.

Picture of a lifeguard courtesy of wikipedia

https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=tablet-android-samsung&dcr=0&biw=1024&bih=768&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=YSeyWqmxBIOQgAafsINQ&q=hst+train+lifeguard&oq=hst+train+lifeguard&gs_l=mobile-gws-img.3...10064.20784..21426...2....85.1651.26..........1..mobile-gws-wiz-img.......0j41j0i13j0i24j0i5i30j0i8i30j0i30j0i67j30i10.xtgxJ9tks54=#imgrc=X6UnrfIENc2-wM:
 

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,057
Location
London E14
why? The length of a possession ( assuming time) is not really an issue. If you mean length as in distance then perhaps
I assume that @alxndr was talking about distance. Based on RAIB reports over the years, the trend seems to be for very long possessions covering one or more long "worksites", some of which have several "sites of work" where something is actually being done. The extreme lengths of these, sometimes many miles long, means that it is not possible for one person to have physical oversight of all the track and its surrounds within the area in order to verify that it has been left in a safe state for the passage of trains.
IIRC this was particularly flagged up in a report into an incident on the c2c line a few years back and mentioned as a (possible) causal or underlying factor several times since.
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,755

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,133
Doesn't matter what you say about length of distance or whatever, this is simply sheer incompetence. Whoever was working on that section left it with the rail there, knowing it was unsafe
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
The safety advice on the RAIB website (www.gov.uk/government/publications/urgent-safety-advice-022018-safety-of-the-line-after-engineering-work/urgent-safety-advice-022018-safety-of-the-line-after-engineering-work) refers to the introduction of the person in charge (PIC) in 2017. But I thought there had already been a person in charge of a possession (PICOP) for many years, unless the PIC is something different from the PICOP, or the PICOP has been renamed as the PIC.

PICOP and PIC are two different roles. PICOP is for full blown possession of the line (ie T3 possession)

PIC for regular day to day out on the track type work. PIC is involved at a planning level and is responsible for (among other things) ensuring the site is handed back for the safe passage of trains once the work is complete.
 

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,057
Location
London E14
Doesn't matter what you say about length of distance or whatever, this is simply sheer incompetence. Whoever was working on that section left it with the rail there, knowing it was unsafe
I very strongly suspect that the person who left the rail there did so with the intention that they or someone else would move it later, but this was forgotten (if it was a long duration possession then it's possible that none of the people who knew it was there were on shift when the possession was given up) and if the line was checked in the dark it's possible that it was overlooked. Possibly it was deliberately left in this position to make it obvious that the whole rail needed moving. Alternatively if the rail was being moved with a minimum number of people in the dark, nobody might have known it was in that position. As there is someone whose job it is to make sure the track is safe for trains to run, neither scenario is a problem in and of itself.
The person who handed this section back almost certainly didn't know the rail was there (if they did know then there would very likely have been an intent to cause an accident and the police would be involved. As there is no mention of that in the BBC or RAIB reports then it is a near certainty that this has been ruled out).
The issue with the lengths of possessions and worksites is that the people responsible for ensuring that the line is safe cannot physically check the stretch of line they are responsible for themselves, and so have to rely on reports from other people, at least some of whom will themselves be relying on reports from others, and so on.
 

Ben.A.98

Member
Joined
13 Feb 2013
Messages
227
Doesn't matter what you say about length of distance or whatever, this is simply sheer incompetence. Whoever was working on that section left it with the rail there, knowing it was unsafe

I feel this is rather jumping the gun a bit.

I very strongly suspect that the person who left the rail there did so with the intention that they or someone else would move it later, but this was forgotten (if it was a long duration possession then it's possible that none of the people who knew it was there were on shift when the possession was given up) and if the line was checked in the dark it's possible that it was overlooked. Possibly it was deliberately left in this position to make it obvious that the whole rail needed moving. Alternatively if the rail was being moved with a minimum number of people in the dark, nobody might have known it was in that position. As there is someone whose job it is to make sure the track is safe for trains to run, neither scenario is a problem in and of itself.
The person who handed this section back almost certainly didn't know the rail was there.
The issue with the lengths of possessions and worksites is that the people responsible for ensuring that the line is safe cannot physically check the stretch of line they are responsible for themselves, and so have to rely on reports from other people, at least some of whom will themselves be relying on reports from others, and so on.

I would concur with this, it sounds most likley, however we won't know till the safety digest comes out.
 

alxndr

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2015
Messages
1,474
why? The length of a possession ( assuming time) is not really an issue. If you mean length as in distance then perhaps

I assume that @alxndr was talking about distance. Based on RAIB reports over the years, the trend seems to be for very long possessions covering one or more long "worksites", some of which have several "sites of work" where something is actually being done. The extreme lengths of these, sometimes many miles long, means that it is not possible for one person to have physical oversight of all the track and its surrounds within the area in order to verify that it has been left in a safe state for the passage of trains.

Correct, I was referring to distance, not time (I wish there was more time!) @Chris M hit the nail on the head why; with possessions several miles long it makes it much harder for the entire length to be checked prior to it being handed back.
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
The entire length doesn't need to be checked. Only where any works have taken place.
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
The entire length doesn't need to be checked. Only where any works have taken place.

Really? So it isn't necessary to check that say a timber hasn't fallen off a trolley on its way to the worksite?
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
If you notice you will see I underlined "any", pushing a trolley would constitute work imo. However, a trolley being pushed would be within the worksite (ie between the worksite marker boards) so no, there would be no need to check between the worksite marker boards and the possession limit board.

Also, if you load 6 sleepers/rail/timber or whatever onto the trolley and you arrive with 6 do you really need to go back and check the line?
 

Ben.A.98

Member
Joined
13 Feb 2013
Messages
227
https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/collision-between-a-train-and-a-wooden-sleeper

"At about 05:50 hrs, a train struck a wooden sleeper lying across the track just after passing through Somerleyton station, while travelling at about 35 mph (56 km/h). At the time the driver did not know what his train had struck but brought the train to a stand.

During Engineering work the night before, bundles of scrap wooden sleepers had been collected from alongside the railway between Somerleyton and Oulton Broad North using a road/rail vehicle with front and rear trailers. Three sleepers fell onto the railway and the staff undertaking this work were not aware of this when they handed the railway back so that trains could start running again."
 

Ploughman

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
2,889
Location
Near where the 3 ridings meet
If you notice you will see I underlined "any", pushing a trolley would constitute work imo. However, a trolley being pushed would be within the worksite (ie between the worksite marker boards) so no, there would be no need to check between the worksite marker boards and the possession limit board.

Also, if you load 6 sleepers/rail/timber or whatever onto the trolley and you arrive with 6 do you really need to go back and check the line?
There is many a time when the state of the recovered sleepers is a bit less than 100%
Sometimes its easier to load them with a shovel.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,910
Location
Nottingham
Could it be that this rail was being dropped from a train and as the last end fell it twisted or bounced over the running rail? If it was dark this might not have been noticed by the person concerned, especially as I think there's a rule about not getting too close as the end of the rail is about to drop.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,785
Location
Glasgow
Could it be that this rail was being dropped from a train and as the last end fell it twisted or bounced over the running rail? If it was dark this might not have been noticed by the person concerned, especially as I think there's a rule about not getting too close as the end of the rail is about to drop.

I think it had been left there while the opposite line was being worked on.
 

Master29

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
1,970
That looks horrendous. I`ve often seen old rails left inside the tracks from the opposite track. I suppose most of the time this isn`t a problem.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,785
Location
Glasgow
That looks horrendous. I`ve often seen old rails left inside the tracks from the opposite track. I suppose most of the time this isn`t a problem.

Hopefully because they usually remember to remove it or drop it in the four-foot.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,289
I very strongly suspect that the person who left the rail there did so with the intention that they or someone else would move it later, but this was forgotten (if it was a long duration possession then it's possible that none of the people who knew it was there were on shift when the possession was given up) and if the line was checked in the dark it's possible that it was overlooked. Possibly it was deliberately left in this position to make it obvious that the whole rail needed moving.
Sorry, but that just doesn't wash. There is no excuse for that rail to be left like that at any stage. If anyone did leave it like that with the intention of moving it later they need to be fired.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,785
Location
Glasgow
Sorry, but that just doesn't wash. There is no excuse for that rail to be left like that at any stage. If anyone did leave it like that with the intention of moving it later they need to be fired.

They certainly need a strong ticking-off and perhaps suspension. There is indeed no excuse and it's lucky it didn't cause a derailment.
 

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,057
Location
London E14
Sorry, but that just doesn't wash. There is no excuse for that rail to be left like that at any stage. If anyone did leave it like that with the intention of moving it later they need to be fired.
They certainly need a strong ticking-off and perhaps suspension. There is indeed no excuse and it's lucky it didn't cause a derailment.
Even if they were instructed to leave it there?
There are many situations within a possession where things are (deliberately or otherwise) temporarily left in such a way that it would not be safe for a train to run on the line, so such an instruction is not going to be inherently unsafe in all circumstances.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,785
Location
Glasgow
Even if they were instructed to leave it there?
There are many situations within a possession where things are (deliberately or otherwise) temporarily left in such a way that it would not be safe for a train to run on the line, so such an instruction is not going to be inherently unsafe in all circumstances.

I've seen rails left in the four-foot but not across the running line. If they were instructed to leave it there then the blame is not their's.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top