Highlight of new long distance trains in 2022 EU timetable

[squizzler]

The Guardian takes a positive look at 6 new services that were launched in the Winter timetable change. It focusses on international services, of which the re-emergence of the night train plays a key role. There are also new domestic high speed services in Spain and Italy.

It is good to see an article of this sort, which does not merely summarise the sorts of changes that the EU is making to its train service, but explains the benefits to the British citizen who may wish to consider the train service as part of their holiday plans. On the other hand one cannot help be a little wistful at how the EU appears to be racing ahead with innovative new services whereas Britain is rolling back on the plans it already made.

 

[geoffk]

That's good news as I keep reading about the demise of cross-border services in Europe, despite technical advances like multi-voltage electric locos and political changes such as border-free travel in the Schengen area. Italy - Slovenia (Trieste - Ljubljana) is one example.

 

[Austriantrain]

That's good news as I keep reading about the demise of cross-border services in Europe, despite technical advances like multi-voltage electric locos and political changes such as border-free travel in the Schengen area. Italy - Slovenia (Trieste - Ljubljana) is one example.

The demise is very country-specific and Trainitalia are notorious for not being interested in marginal services (with which I mean those that, while not operating on a loss, need hard work and constant effort to earn money and will never be money-spinners). Same with SNCF and RENFE.

Slovenia is not easy either. However, their network is not very well suited to offering competitive journey times, so that has to be taken into account (this, together with the still very slow route in Austria, accounts for the bad offer between Vienna and Slovenia).

Thankfully, other countries and railways think differently.

 

[duesselmartin]

I don't think the UK is doing that badly. Think of GB's geographic location. For Berlin its easy to have a train to Warsaw or Praha. Yet Berlin offers little say to Brussels and a poor service to Paris.
There is hardly any scope for new night trains in the UK esp. if they have to pay their own way.
France and Spain may have an impressive HSL system, but a provincial level its dismal.
Germany's first HSL took 20 years to build. Improving capacity on the Holland to Switzerland corridor seems to be a near impossible challenge.

So not all is good on the continent.

Martin

 

[Austriantrain]

I don't think the UK is doing that badly. Think of GB's geographic location. For Berlin its easy to have a train to Warsaw or Praha. Yet Berlin offers little say to Brussels and a poor service to Paris.
There is hardly any scope for new night trains in the UK esp. if they have to pay their own way.
France and Spain may have an impressive HSL system, but a provincial level its dismal.
Germany's first HSL took 20 years to build. Improving capacity on the Holland to Switzerland corridor seems to be a near impossible challenge.

So not all is good on the continent.

Martin

I agree. While everything is not good in the UK either, the very popular self-flagellation in this forum is not grounded in fact. The UK railway system is certainly among the best in Europe and - seen in its totality - certainly on a level with Germany or (on a much smaller scale) Austria and very much superior to France or Spain.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The EU doesn't control timetables of course, it's the individual railways (state and open access) who are developing new services (and withdrawing others).
I expect the European Rail Timetable for 2022, when it arrives this week, will have much the same detail in its "what's new" section.
I can see the benefit of new inter-capital sleeper services for the business market, but as a tourist I prefer day trains with views.

The prospective Frecciarossa services (start date tbc) between Milan and Paris via Lyon are interesting, especially with the HS2 stock decision being based on that design.
Madrid-Santiago de Compostela/Vigo by the new all-electric route is also interesting, though it exchanges a slow but scenic "S&C-like" mountain route for a series of low-level tunnels between the valleys.
I think Adif still has to re-gauge and resignal the Ourense-Santiago section to obtain the full benefit of the AV operation.
This was newly built to AV standards in 2011, but to broad gauge and at lower speed, pending completion of the route to the Madrid-Valladolid AV line.
From what I can see from the Renfe web site, from next week the existing Alvia (dual gauge) through trains will continue to run, on a faster schedule, and probably will drop their diesel bi-mode capability now the full route is wired.
They will be supplemented by new standard-gauge AVE services which run as far as Ourense, with Avant broad-gauge connections onwards in Galicia; these provide the fastest end-to-end times of just 3 hours.

 

[StephenHunter]

It seems that there were no actual paying passengers on the first Vienna-Paris Nightjet; a lot of cancellations due to Covid.

 

[jopsuk]

The prospective Frecciarossa services (start date tbc) between Milan and Paris via Lyon are interesting, especially with the HS2 stock decision being based on that design.

More than prospective, the tickets for the first services (Saturday!) have all but sold out.
The same stock is going to be used on the new FS services on the Spanish high speed network, and they're raising the possibility of Madrid-Marseille-Milan as well

 

[Austriantrain]

The EU doesn't control timetables of course, it's the individual railways (state and open access) who are developing new services (and withdrawing others).
I expect the European Rail Timetable for 2022, when it arrives this week, will have much the same detail in its "what's new" section.
I can see the benefit of new inter-capital sleeper services for the business market, but as a tourist I prefer day trains with views.

The prospective Frecciarossa services (start date tbc) between Milan and Paris via Lyon are interesting, especially with the HS2 stock decision being based on that design.
Madrid-Santiago de Compostela/Vigo by the new all-electric route is also interesting, though it exchanges a slow but scenic "S&C-like" mountain route for a series of low-level tunnels between the valleys.
I think Adif still has to re-gauge and resignal the Ourense-Santiago section to obtain the full benefit of the AV operation.
This was newly built to AV standards in 2011, but to broad gauge and at lower speed, pending completion of the route to the Madrid-Valladolid AV line.
From what I can see from the Renfe web site, from next week the existing Alvia (dual gauge) through trains will continue to run, on a faster schedule, and probably will drop their diesel bi-mode capability now the full route is wired.
They will be supplemented by new standard-gauge AVE services which run as far as Ourense, with Avant broad-gauge connections onwards in Galicia; these provide the fastest end-to-end times of just 3 hours.

For a regauge of Ourense - Santiago, to make sense the whole eje atlantico between Ferrol or La Coruña and Vigo would have to be regauged as well, otherwise a change of gauge somewhere will still be necessary.

I don’t think that is planned - and the new Talgo Avril should make it unnecessary, since it will be able to run at 350 kph on the HSL and still change gauge.

 

[jamesontheroad]

It’s not a new train, but a restored one, which I think is important. On Sunday 12 December I attempted to travel from Stockholm to Oslo on the first intercity train to run on this route since March 2020. I was foiled in two ways: firstly, the first train was actually a late scheduled evening train on 11 December, so that a crew and train would be ready in Oslo for an eastbound departure on the first day of the new timetable; and secondly longstanding staffing problems meant the train was terminated short in Karlstad, Värmland.

SJ currently don’t have enough X2000 tilting trains to operate on this route, but hopefully will do once they’re all refurbished. Until then, it’s a lazy but very comfortable five and a half hour trip in classic Swedish carriages. I travelled first class and enclose pictures of both 2+1 first class and 2+2 second class carriages here.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

SJ currently don’t have enough X2000 tilting trains to operate on this route, but hopefully will do once they’re all refurbished. Until then, it’s a lazy but very comfortable five and a half hour trip in classic Swedish carriages. I travelled first class and enclose pictures of both 2+1 first class and 2+2 second class carriages here.

I did that IC route to Oslo a few years ago, and I thought the modern SJ Rc6 loco looked very similar to BR's Woodhead electric locos, also originally in black livery.
The smart look was rather let down by an hour's delay while a braking problem was fixed at Stockholm Central, half in and half out of the platform!

 

[jamesontheroad]

I did that IC route to Oslo a few years ago, and I thought the modern SJ Rc6 loco looked very similar to BR's Woodhead electric locos, also originally in black livery.
The smart look was rather let down by an hour's delay while a braking problem was fixed at Stockholm Central, half in and half out of the platform!

They look even better now that they have had smaller but brighter LED headlights fitted. A bit like the character in the Big Hero 6 movie.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For a regauge of Ourense - Santiago, to make sense the whole eje atlantico between Ferrol or La Coruña and Vigo would have to be regauged as well, otherwise a change of gauge somewhere will still be necessary.
I don’t think that is planned - and the new Talgo Avril should make it unnecessary, since it will be able to run at 350 kph on the HSL and still change gauge.

Some detail of the opening of the new HSL to Ourense.
Royal opening marks launch of Madrid – Ourense standard gauge services | News | Railway Gazette International

SPAIN: Guests including King Felipe VI and Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez joined a special high speed train between Madrid and Ourense on December 20 to mark completion of the Galician high speed line, over which commercial services began the following day.
The newly-opened 104 km section of 1 435 mm gauge line passes through the mountains between Pedralba de la Pradería and Taboadela; from there to Ourense the high speed trains share the conventional alignment using a 15∙4 km section of dual-gauge track.

The gauge-changer for the route is at the end of the new HSL at Taboadela, with dual gauge onwards to Ourense.
Adif seems to relocate the gauge-changers as the standard-gauge network expands.
I think the next HSL section to open is Vente de Baños-Burgos on the line to Irun.

Edit:
Incidentally, the winter 21/22 European Rail Timetable has now been published.
The new Trenitalia Milan-Paris service can be booked on Solutions | Trenitalia (lefrecce.it).
The times (2 daily initially) are mostly different to those shown in the ERT and are not shown at all on the DB planner.

Trenitalia FR1000 services run via Lyon Part Dieu to Chambery, and take the LAV from Torino to Milano Centrale.
Meanwhile SNCF TGVs run via Macon* and the classic line from Torino to Milano Porta Garibaldi.
This means that in the morning TI leaves Paris at 0635 and SNCF at 0647; SNCF on the more direct route reaches Torino first but TI catches up and they both arrive at their respective termini in Milano at 1350!

*one of the 3 SNCF trains runs via Lyon St Exupery.

 

[Austriantrain]

This means that in the morning TI leaves Paris at 0635 and SNCF at 0647, SNCF reaches Torino first but TI catches up and they both arrive at their respective termini in Milano at 1350!

What better illustration of the lunacy of having state incumbents compete head-on instead of cooperating and confronting the real competition (plane, car and coaches) can there be?

At least TI does the logical thing and serves central Lyon, something that SNCF - in their futile quest to reduce journey times and then not investing in ECTS2 to run over the HSL Torino - Milano - has only ever done on one return a day.

 

[AlbertBeale]

What better illustration of the lunacy of having state incumbents compete head-on instead of cooperating and confronting the real competition (plane, car and coaches) can there be?

At least TI does the logical thing and serves central Lyon, something that SNCF - in their futile quest to reduce journey times and then not investing in ECTS2 to run over the HSL Torino - Milano - has only ever done on one return a day.

Yes - as someone who's used that route occasionally, I'd also far rather they co-operated and spread the times out fairly evenly through the day. And, indeed, co-operated so that whichever one you were on, in either direction, it if was delayed then any onward tickets would be valid on a later connection if necessary. (At the moment, I guess that southbound on TI would be OK for onward TI journey, and northbound would be OK on SNCF for onward SNCF or Eurostar journeys; but in a sane world you wouldn't need to worry about that. As indeed you didn't, decades ago, when all the European railways were publicly owned public services, and a single through ticket for international journeys was routine...)

 

[Austriantrain]

Yes - as someone who's used that route occasionally, I'd also far rather they co-operated and spread the times out fairly evenly through the day. And, indeed, co-operated so that whichever one you were on, in either direction, it if was delayed then any onward tickets would be valid on a later connection if necessary. (At the moment, I guess that southbound on TI would be OK for onward TI journey, and northbound would be OK on SNCF for onward SNCF or Eurostar journeys; but in a sane world you wouldn't need to worry about that. As indeed you didn't, decades ago, when all the European railways were publicly owned public services, and a single through ticket for international journeys was routine...)

The classic way of organizing things - each railway is legally and commercially responsible until reaching the respective border and trains (and if possible staff) run through- is still by far the most efficient way of running international trains. How wonderfully useful a two-hourly service Paris - Lyon Part-Dieu (where connections from large parts of France can be picked up) Torino - Milano would be; some trains might even go on to Venice or Rome.

I do recognize that on very specific corridors, where rail has an overwhelming market share, rail-on-rail competition might be both legally necessary (or at least cooperation would run into competition law issues) and beneficial to passengers (Paris - Brussels would come to mind), but rail‘s market share on most international routes is very low and it is other transport modes that are the real competition.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The dedicated Paris-Milan advance fares are from around €29 (although it's still €23 for the short hop Chambery-Torino), but more like €80 at short notice.
TI also offers Paris-Milan fares via Strasbourg, Basel and Como (on DB, TER and SBB), but the fare is around €200.
Paris-Milan on easyJet is €20-50 depending on the day of the week, journey time 90 minutes (though you still have to get to/from the airports).
Just as at home, and on Eurostar or the airlines, flexibility comes at a steep cost.

 

[duesselmartin]

@Austriantrain. Not sure where you see the competion on the Bruxelles-Paris route. The line is dominated by Thalys which is owned by SNCF/SNCB/NS.
There is competion of Bruxelles-Köln but that created little benefits, prices are similar, flexibilty is non.
An exception might be Amsterdam-Bruxelles as with Thalys and IC you have different products here but then NS is a stakeholder in Thalys.

 

[Austriantrain]

@Austriantrain. Not sure where you see the competion on the Bruxelles-Paris route. The line is dominated by Thalys which is owned by SNCF/SNCB/NS.
There is competion of Bruxelles-Köln but that created little benefits, prices are similar, flexibilty is non.
An exception might be Amsterdam-Bruxelles as with Thalys and IC you have different products here but then NS is a stakeholder in Thalys.

I am sorry if my post was misleading. I mentioned Paris - Brussels as an example of the very few routes where rail-on-rail competition would make sense. I am aware that there is none at the moment.

Brussels - Köln would be much more useful as a cooperating service.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

I can't belive what I'm reading.

Have you ever tried booking a ticket for Brussels to Köln?!

Thalys is usually at least triple the price of DB, even more you want to travel further into Germany. In years of regular travel London to Berlin I cannot recall a single instance where using Thalys was not astronomically expensive compared to DB. DB also offers walk-on flexible fares, all Thalys services are compulsory reservation, not to mention having "compulsory" catering in first class and compulsory lack of catering in standard.

Thalys are a bunch of rent seeking monopolists that have been peddling the same worn out trains and service since 1997 with an aftertaste of "we're doing a favour by allowing you to travel" customer service arrogance and I'm delighted that at least to Köln they have competition. That DB have steadily added more train pairs over the years shows that the more popular product wins out.

 

[Austriantrain]

I can't belive what I'm reading.

Have you ever tried booking a ticket for Brussels to Köln?!

Thalys is usually at least triple the price of DB, even more you want to travel further into Germany. In years of regular travel London to Berlin I cannot recall a single instance where using Thalys was not astronomically expensive compared to DB. DB also offers walk-on flexible fares, all Thalys services are compulsory reservation, not to mention having "compulsory" catering in first class and compulsory lack of catering in standard.

Thalys are a bunch of rent seeking monopolists that have been peddling the same worn out trains and service since 1997 with an aftertaste of "we're doing a favour by allowing you to travel" customer service arrogance and I'm delighted that at least to Köln they have competition. That DB have steadily added more train pairs over the years shows that the more popular product wins out.

All surely true, but there is a bunch of examples around Europe where on cooperation services there are plenty of cheap ticket options available and decent quality to boot.

The problem is not „cooperation“ (the DB offer would be the same if they were the only one on this route), the problem is Thalys and thus SNCF. As usual.

 

[MarcVD]

I can't belive what I'm reading.

Have you ever tried booking a ticket for Brussels to Köln?!

Thalys is usually at least triple the price of DB, even more you want to travel further into Germany. In years of regular travel London to Berlin I cannot recall a single instance where using Thalys was not astronomically expensive compared to DB. DB also offers walk-on flexible fares, all Thalys services are compulsory reservation, not to mention having "compulsory" catering in first class and compulsory lack of catering in standard.

Thalys are a bunch of rent seeking monopolists that have been peddling the same worn out trains and service since 1997 with an aftertaste of "we're doing a favour by allowing you to travel" customer service arrogance and I'm delighted that at least to Köln they have competition. That DB have steadily added more train pairs over the years shows that the more popular product wins out.

And not even mentioning that the ICE trainsets are vastly more comfortable than french TGV ones. Just a pity that their reliability is far less than perfect, specially under 3 kV catenary. Looks like german train manufacturers really have a problem with DC power supply.

I for one would be absolutely delighted to see competition coming on the Paris - Bruxelles route. Even in the form of hauled trains on the classical route.

 

[StephenHunter]

Not "new" exactly, but a glance at wagonWEB's Nightjet formations suggests the gradual introduction of Wi-Fi fitted couchette vehicles on some of their routes over the coming year; they are converting 22 seated carriages into couchettes with 7x4-berth compartments containing fixed beds.

 

[Austriantrain]

And not even mentioning that the ICE trainsets are vastly more comfortable than french TGV ones. Just a pity that their reliability is far less than perfect, specially under 3 kV catenary. Looks like german train manufacturers really have a problem with DC power supply.

I for one would be absolutely delighted to see competition coming on the Paris - Bruxelles route. Even in the form of hauled trains on the classical route.

Maybe I should rephrase my theory: A cooperative international service is vastly superior to a competitive one, except where SNCF is involved. In that case I am all for competition

 

[JonasB]

Maybe I should rephrase my theory: A cooperative international service is vastly superior to a competitive one, except where SNCF is involved. In that case I am all for competition

Or DSB.

 

[D6130]

This means that in the morning TI leaves Paris at 0635 and SNCF at 0647; SNCF on the more direct route reaches Torino first but TI catches up and they both arrive at their respective termini in Milano at 1350!

Err....no! The SNCF service departs Paris at 06 47, arriving Torino PS at 12 24 and Milano PG at 13 50; whereas the TI service departs at 07 26, arrives Torino PS at 13 18 and Milano Centrale at 14 07. An excellent video review of the journey in Executive Class was posted yesterday on "Simply Railway"'s YouTube channel (sorry - I can't do a link) and if this is the standard being set by Trenitalia, SNCF are going to have to up their ante drastically....or will they just give up on the route entirely in a year of two when the TGV Regio sets are life-expired? My wife and I are very much looking forward to our first trip on the Frecciarossa service in the Spring, although I doubt that it will be in Executive!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Err....no! The SNCF service departs Paris at 06 47, arriving Torino PS at 12 24 and Milano PG at 13 50; whereas the TI service departs at 07 26, arrives Torino PS at 13 18 and Milano Centrale at 14 07. An excellent video review of the journey in Executive Class was posted yesterday on "Simply Railway"'s YouTube channel (sorry - I can't do a link) and if this is the standard being set by Trenitalia, SNCF are going to have to up their ante drastically....or will they just give up on the route entirely in a year of two when the TGV Regio sets are life-expired? My wife and I are very much looking forward to our first trip on the Frecciarossa service in the Spring, although I doubt that it will be in Executive!

My post was based on a mid-January search on the TI site, giving 0635-1350, which I would have thought would be accurate.
I haven't checked if other dates are faster, or if the services are retimed during the year.
The times you post are the ones in the ERT, so no doubt are the ones TI was planning.
FR services also seem to involve a 15-minute stop at Modane for system changeover, compared to 6 minutes for the TGV.

 

[D6130]

FR services also seem to involve a 15-minute stop at Modane for system changeover, compared to 6 minutes for the TGV.

According to the YouTube video, all the Frecciarossa's stops in France are in the order of ten minutes so, if a pathway existed, there may be the potential for an even shorter journey time. However the relatively busy single line between St Andre-le-Gaz and Chambery is the principal constraint. In my experience, as a regular traveller on the route, the TGV stops at Modane in both directions are rarely less than 10-15 minutes in either direction....and sometimes longer - depending on the whims of the French customs and frontier police (Don't believe everything you read about the Schengen area!). Even those international services which are not booked a passenger stop at St Jean de Maurienne have an unadvertised service stop there to pick up/set down the officers of those organisations who are supposed to check the train and its passengers between there and Modane.