• Dear Guest, and welcome to RailUK Forums. Our non-railway discussion forums are currently restricted until members have five or more posts, and you will not be able to make a new thread or reply to an existing one in this section until you have made five or more posts elsewhere on the forum.

Hillsborough inquests: Fans unlawfully killed

Status
Not open for further replies.

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,597
A verdict of unlawful killing has been returned on the Hillsborough victims.

The CPS will now consider criminal proceedings.

Justice at last.

Hillsborough inquests: Fans unlawfully killed, jury concludes

Ninety-six football fans who died as a result of a crush in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster were unlawfully killed, the inquests have concluded.

The jury found match commander Ch Supt David Duckenfield was "responsible for manslaughter by gross negligence" due to a breach of his duty of care.

Police errors also added to a dangerous situation at the FA Cup semi-final.

After a 27-year campaign by victims' families, the behaviour of Liverpool fans was exonerated.

The jury found they did not contribute to the danger unfolding at the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end of Sheffield Wednesday's ground on 15 April 1989.

Nine jurors reached unanimous decisions on all but one of the 14 questions at the inquests into Britain's worst sporting disaster.

The coroner Sir John Goldring said he would accept a majority decision about whether the fans were unlawfully killed - seven jurors agreed they were.

When the conclusion of the unlawful killing was revealed, families were seen hugging each other in the public gallery and some punched the air.

...

Source
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

meridian2

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2013
Messages
1,186
A tremendous victory for everyone.

Will the Sun or the right-wing apologise? Absolutely not. This was a government and an institution with a clear-cut agenda: to paint football fans in this country as 'tanked-up yobs', or just simply, 'yobs'. The police lied, Ingham spun it, and the Sun printed it.

A custodial sentence for ex-Chief Superintendant Duckenfield, to me, is merely superficial. Anyone associated with the Thatcher regime at the time (I've already mentioned Ingham), Sir Norman Bettison and the Sun need to all answer for what they did that day.

Then the ;Justice for the 96' mission will be complete.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,979
Absolutely fantastic news.
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,041
If Duckenfield had ordered the gates to remain closed, fans would have died in the crush outside.

He ordered the gates to be opened and fans died in the crush inside.

A tough call, not aided by hindsight.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
23,220
Location
Redcar
Though he could of course have closed the access to the central pens and then opened the outside gates and ensured that the fans were directed to the side pens. Just a thought.

A good day for justice even if it took far far too long to come.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,616
Location
Isle of Man
The Sun printed the lies that the police and the Conservative government at the time wanted them to print.

furnessvale said:
If Duckenfield had ordered the gates to remain closed, fans would have died in the crush outside.

He ordered the gates to be opened and fans died in the crush inside.

That was Duckenfield's evidence; the jury have clearly not believed him. The issue was not outside the ground, the issue was that the gates were opened with no thought given to controlling crowds through the central tunnel. There were no cordons outside the ground, there was no plan for dealing with the crowds, and the decision to close perimeter gates was made too late.

It was a complete policing failure, made worse by the deficiencies in Hillsborough's safety. And Duckenfield should be made to pay for it. As should Sheffield Wednesday football club.
 
Last edited:

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
23,220
Location
Redcar
It was a complete policing failure, made worse by the deficiencies in Hillsborough's safety. And Duckenfield should be made to pay for it.

Not just him. Having read the initial report that came about before the inquests started I can't see how Sheffield Wednesday and their contractors can escape without facing charges from the CPS. Sheffield Wednesday were told that the pens weren't good enough, that they needed separate turnstiles, that the rated capacity was in excess of what was safe for their design and they did nothing.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,616
Location
Isle of Man
Sheffield Wednesday were told that the pens weren't good enough, that they needed separate turnstiles, that the rated capacity was in excess of what was safe for their design and they did nothing.

The FA should been getting a squeaky bum too, the safety certificate for Hillsborough lapsed in 1986 yet the FA continued to use the venue for FA Cup semi final games.
 

AntoniC

Member
Joined
28 Dec 2011
Messages
749
Location
Southport
The Families have got what they wanted , which is to have the names of the 96 cleared.

As for what happens in the future, to me is not the priority.

#YNWA, #JFT96
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
The Sun printed the lies that the police and the Conservative government at the time wanted them to print.

The problem wasn't so much printing the lies (other papers did as well and didn't lose practically all their sales in Liverpool) - it was having them in large letters on the front page under a massive headline of "THE TRUTH" and then refusing to admit it wasn't the truth or to apologise.

 

Phil.

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2015
Messages
1,323
Location
Penzance
A tremendous victory for everyone.

Will the Sun or the right-wing apologise? Absolutely not. This was a government and an institution with a clear-cut agenda: to paint football fans in this country as 'tanked-up yobs', or just simply, 'yobs'. The police lied, Ingham spun it, and the Sun printed it.

A custodial sentence for ex-Chief Superintendant Duckenfield, to me, is merely superficial. Anyone associated with the Thatcher regime at the time (I've already mentioned Ingham), Sir Norman Bettison and the Sun need to all answer for what they did that day.

Then the ;Justice for the 96' mission will be complete.

Will you be including the then Labour Home Secretary Jack Straw who twice refused to consider a public enquiry.
Perhaps you'd also consider the Labour run Sheffield council who have been remarkably quiet given the repeated warnings that they were given about the state of the ground.
It's all very well given the benefit of hindsight but what would you have done. Kept the gates closed and have fans crushed there or open the gates to relieve the crush and then have them crushed inside?
The fact is that some people have made a terrible mistake and will pay for it. Please don't try and score political points off of dead people. They deserve better.
 
Last edited:

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
A journalist went to the house of Sir Bernard Ingham and asked if he will be willing to talk about today's verdict. He said "No" and closed the door.
 

Bodiddly

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2013
Messages
618
The mistakes aren't the problem. The lies and cover ups are. It is a disgusting conspiracy.

Absolutely. The finger of blame should be pointed at everyone who has been involved in this disgusting cover up, no matter which allegiance they belong to and not just political. We must see the full force of the law being used to determine who should pay for this and people need to pay. The families of the 96 have fought the system and won. For that, we can only show them the respect they deserve.
Not holding my breath for the Sun to print a full front page grovelling apology or Kelvin Mackenzie to go on the record to admit how inexplicably abhorrent his editorship of the paper that day was.
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
A journalist went to the house of Sir Bernard Ingham and asked if he will be willing to talk about today's verdict. He said "No" and closed the door.

Well there's a surprise. Margaret Thatcher was disappointed to say the least by the findings of the Taylor report because he dared to criticize South Yorkshire Police.

What's really damning is that many of the victims were still alive at well past 15.20 and yet they were allowed to die.
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,041
Though he could of course have closed the access to the central pens and then opened the outside gates and ensured that the fans were directed to the side pens. Just a thought.

Are the central pens gated separately?

Was Duckenfield aware that the central pens were already dangerously overcrowded, if indeed they were at that stage?

How long to close those central pen gates if they exist, bearing in mind he KNEW that there was a dangerous crush outside the main gates already happening?
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,616
Location
Isle of Man
Are the central pens gated separately?

Yes. This was a regular crowd control feature, to the extent that it was known as the Freeman Tactic, after the policeman who came up with it.

Was Duckenfield aware that the central pens were already dangerously overcrowded, if indeed they were at that stage?

No, because he failed to make the basic checks to determine this.

The Guardian's David Conn has written an excellent article on this this afternoon. It's long, but well worth a read.

http://www.theguardian.com/football...and-lies-that-lasted-decades?CMP=share_btn_tw
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What's really damning is that many of the victims were still alive at well past 15.20 and yet they were allowed to die.

Of the 96 people who died, 30 of them were not even in the ground at 2.52pm, when Duckenfield gave the order to open the gates.

The simple fact is that Duckenfield didn't know what he was doing but, because he was appointed as a "disciplinarian", didn't think to ask anyone. And then he lied and lied and lied to cover up his gross negligence. Within an hour of the disaster he was claiming that Liverpool fans had stormed the gate, even though he knew they hadn't because he'd given the order to open it.

It's not the mistakes that stick in the craw, rather the fact that South Yorkshire Police lied and lied and lied again to cover it up, making the most crass and baseless allegations against the victims to try and defend their gross negligence. I'd love to say things have changed in the last 27 years but, quite frankly, I don't think they have.
 
Last edited:

meridian2

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2013
Messages
1,186
Fully agree with Arctic Troll, but for me it's a bit more profound, in the sense Chief Constable Peter Wright instigated the cover-up, and what's more, politicians with agendas against football fans saw this as an opportunity to wield their axe.

It's a good start but there are senior figures, except Wright of course, who still need to be held to account and who need to share some of the inevitable punishments.
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
It's not the mistakes that stick in the craw, rather the fact that South Yorkshire Police lied and lied and lied again to cover it up, making the most crass and baseless allegations against the victims to try and defend their gross negligence. I'd love to say things have changed in the last 27 years but, quite frankly, I don't think they have.

One thing that I would say is that because of what happened at Hillsborough and the subsequent Taylor report football stadiums are a much safer environment to watch football than they were prior to the disaster. I really don't think that anyone could argue against that.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
25,044
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
Are the central pens gated separately?

Was Duckenfield aware that the central pens were already dangerously overcrowded, if indeed they were at that stage?

How long to close those central pen gates if they exist, bearing in mind he KNEW that there was a dangerous crush outside the main gates already happening?

The jury found match commander Ch Supt David Duckenfield was "responsible for manslaughter by gross negligence" due to a breach of his duty of care. That is a fairly clear statement!

That is after 2 years of evidence and 7 days worth of evidence from Mr Duckenfield.
 

Busaholic

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
10,028
Freemasonry will protect Mr Duckinfield to the end, The South Yorkshire police wiil be given a 'fine' which will have to be paid by the Council Taxpayers of that area. If I am wrong on this I shall probably die of the shock of it. No justice yet, or probably ever, imo, but I am happy for the families whose traducing might now come to an end.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,616
Location
Isle of Man
The victims have been exonerated, that's justice.

But you're right, the perpetrators will not lose anything. The taxpayer will foot the bill for any fines, and the likes of Duckenfield will live the rest of their lives without sanction.

As a Bradford fan I know all about unsafe football stadia and authorities who turn a blind eye to it. That stadia are not like that now is a great positive. But that 152 people lost their lives to focus minds is shameful.

As for the authorities, the fact they made Norman Bettison chief constable of Merseyside shows the contempt they hold us all in.
 
Last edited:

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
25,044
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
I have just seen tomorrows front pages on twitter, and neither the Sun nor the Timers (prop: R Murdoch) found space on their front pages to report one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in English legal history.

Odd after they managed to report the initial events in such graphic detail...................
 

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
5,541
I distinguish between the event and what happened afterwards.

Duckenfield & some police made a dreadful misjudgement, and 96 people died. But sending some police to jail will not bring back the victims, and it will not stop future crowd mishaps - to me it seems more like seeking revenge than justice. (I know some will diasgree with me),

Crowd control is not an exact science. I have been in large queues outside rugby grounds, and queues have a momentum of their own. More and more people arrive, impatient to get into the ground, and push into those in front. You start to get carried along with the crush, unable to escape.

However what happened afterwards was a disgrace - lies, manipulated evidence, and worse - and it is for that conduct that some police deserve severe punishment, if convicted by a court. We are supposed to be able to trust the police - what other injustices have occurred when police break our trust ?
 
Last edited:

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
I have just seen tomorrows front pages on twitter, and neither the Sun nor the Timers (prop: R Murdoch) found space on their front pages to report one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in English legal history.

Odd after they managed to report the initial events in such graphic detail...................

Well that is an absolute disgrace. I honestly thought that the Sun would have made an apology tomorrow for what it printed all those years a go.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
25,044
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
Well that is an absolute disgrace. I honestly thought that the Sun would have made an apology tomorrow for what it printed all those years a go.

I am not.

I distinguish between the event and what happened afterwards.

So do I, but both may lead to potential criminal charges.

Duckenfield & some police made a dreadful misjudgement, and 96 people died. But sending some police to jail will not bring back the victims, and it will not stop future crowd mishaps - to me it seems more like seeking revenge than justice. (I know some will diasgree with me),

I disagree. Police negligence led to 96 people being killed when they shouldn't have been. Someone has to be accountable for that. It wasnt an accident.

Crowd control is not an exact science. I have been in large queues outside rugby grounds, and queues have a momentum of their own. More and more people arrive, impatient to get into the ground, and push into those in front. You start to get carried along with the crush, unable to escape.

The previous match commander (who was moved to a new job just before the game) had much better crowd control plans in place based upon experience at the ground and knowledge of the area. None were implemented following the change. There wasnt even a hand over meeting!

However what happened afterwards was a disgrace - lies, manipulated evidence, and worse - and it is for that conduct that some police deserve severe punishment, if convicted by a court. We are supposed to be able to trust the police - what other injustices have occurred when police break our trust ?

Agreed. However you cant be naive as to think this is an isolated example of police covering things up?
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,616
Location
Isle of Man
Agreed. However you cant be naive as to think this is an isolated example of police covering things up?

It isn't even an isolated example of South Yorkshire Police covering things up, blaming "rampaging mobs" for their mistakes and brutality. They did the same thing at Orgreave, and got away with it then too.

neither the Sun nor the Timers (prop: R Murdoch) found space on their front pages to report one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in English legal history

In fairness, the political editor of The Sun (Prop: R Murdoch) got quite the grilling on Sky News (prop: R Murdoch) last night.

Bevan Price said:
Duckenfield & some police made a dreadful misjudgement, and 96 people died. But sending some police to jail will not bring back the victims, and it will not stop future crowd mishaps - to me it seems more like seeking revenge than justice. (I know some will diasgree with me),

Crowd control is not an exact science. I have been in large queues outside rugby grounds, and queues have a momentum of their own. More and more people arrive, impatient to get into the ground, and push into those in front. You start to get carried along with the crush, unable to escape.

The main issues is that the previous match commander was sacked because he fell out with the Chief Inspector, and Duckenfield was drafted in as an "enforcer". Because of this Duckenfield was neither willing nor able to ask for help, to get advice on how to deal with the crowds. The bottleneck outside the Leppings Lane end was a known difficult spot. The tunnel was a known danger spot; closing that central tunnel was a tactic that was common enough to have a name. Duckenfield knew none of this, and didn't think to ask. He was an enforcer, he couldn't possibly ask for help.

He then proceeded to spend the next 27 years lying about the victims, dragging their name through the gutter, in order to protect himself.

I don't think you can separate Duckenfield's negligence from his behaviour afterwards. His behaviour afterwards- an inability to acknowledge his errors, the desire to blame everyone and everything else- shows why Duckenfield was negligent in the first place.

For me, it's the nasty behaviour afterwards that means that I want to see Duckenfield punished for what happened.

At the very least, I want to see the shameful Norman Bettison lose his knighthood. As I said before, that that liar was made Chief Constable of Merseyside shows what contempt the police hold us in.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top