That would be like the same journalist knocking on a Liverpool fan's door in Liverpool and asking them about Heysal. No-one in Liverpool ever seems to mention Heysal anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_disaster
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Hillsborough inquests: Fans unlawfully killed
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That would be like the same journalist knocking on a Liverpool fan's door in Liverpool and asking them about Heysal. No-one in Liverpool ever seems to mention Heysal anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_disaster
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TheKnightWho
Established Member
Ingham was personally responsible for writing to many of the victims' families on behalf of the government, and did so in an incredibly callous and cruel manner. Your analogy is terrible, and makes absolutely no sense.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
and that has what to do with this matter?
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
No it wouldn't.
Yes they do. They had a memorial service for the victims at Anfield last year.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...cts-39-victims-30-years-Brussels-Anfield.html
Of course it's worth mentioning that Heysel happened for the same reasons Hillsborough did: incompetent policing in a decrepid stadium. Both clubs repeatedly warned that the policing, especially segregation, and the stadium were not appropriate for the match. They were proven right.
Beyond that, I'm not sure about why Heysel is relevant to anything?
I get the impression he was referring to they remember Hillsborough because the emergency services were at fault but forget Heysel because some Liverpool fans were partly to blame. What some football fans forget is the misbehaviour of some Liverpool fans at Heysel was one of many incidents that led to all English clubs being banned from UEFA competitions. One incident involving one club's fans would never have got all teams in the country banned.
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Heysel was a convenient stick for those that were involved in the smear campaign at Hillsborough. Somehow, the same Liverpool fans were responsible for the deaths at Hillsborough.
It's a futile argument and a desperate attempt to shift the blame away.
It's a futile argument and a desperate attempt to shift the blame away.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Well quite. It also grossly misrepresents what happened at Heysel, which was far more about a dangerously decrepid stadium and incompetent policing and crowd management than anything else. Both clubs wanted the final moved as they didn't think Heysel Stadium was safe. UEFA ignored them. The English clubs' ban was a convenient way of UEFA dodging their responsibilities, just like the FA dodged their responsibilities after Valley Parade and Hillsborough.
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BBC News and other media outlets are reporting that the incumbent Chief Constable of South Yorkshire has been suspended:
Currently a breaking news story, detail likely to be added at a later point, sourced from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201.
OneOffDave
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Blaming 'drunken' fans and those with no tickets is a bit of a non-starter as, at the time, those planning for games knew there would be those elements in the crowd and they had a duty of care to plan for that and protect all fans. At the time, that type of fan behaviour was normal and had almost caused an incident the year before.
It's like planning for a modern festival, you know there will be a proportion of festival goers who will drink too much and/or take drugs. You plan for that both for their safety and the safety of others at the festival. In both the Green and Purple guides for event planning in the UK there are significant passages about assessing the nature of the crowd that will turn up to an event and how you should alter your planning and resourcing to reflect this.
The other thing to remember is that individuals in a crowd have limited information and can't always react in the most appropriate manner. People as the back pushing to get in won't know whether there's a solid physical barrier ahead or it's just people dawdling, holding the crowd up and by the time they do know, it may be too late for those at the front.
Declaring an interest, I had relatives in the crowd at the Leppings Lane end that day and have worked with members of the emergency and health services who were on duty at the ground and the receiving hospitals.
It's like planning for a modern festival, you know there will be a proportion of festival goers who will drink too much and/or take drugs. You plan for that both for their safety and the safety of others at the festival. In both the Green and Purple guides for event planning in the UK there are significant passages about assessing the nature of the crowd that will turn up to an event and how you should alter your planning and resourcing to reflect this.
The other thing to remember is that individuals in a crowd have limited information and can't always react in the most appropriate manner. People as the back pushing to get in won't know whether there's a solid physical barrier ahead or it's just people dawdling, holding the crowd up and by the time they do know, it may be too late for those at the front.
Declaring an interest, I had relatives in the crowd at the Leppings Lane end that day and have worked with members of the emergency and health services who were on duty at the ground and the receiving hospitals.
HMS Ark Royal
Established Member
I have to say that that it is very unfair to suspend Chief Constable David Crompton over the events of something that happened when he was not a serving officer with South Yorkshire Police at the time.
Was he wrong to describe Liverpool fans the way he did? Yes, but one must remember that he was repeating only what was said to him by officers there at the time.
Was he wrong to describe Liverpool fans the way he did? Yes, but one must remember that he was repeating only what was said to him by officers there at the time.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
he isn't being suspend for this alone but for a number of issues from Ogreave through Hilsborough to the Rotherham scandal and the erosion of trust in his force in the local community. Harsh but unavoidable after the negative publicity.
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HMS Ark Royal
Established Member
The PCC has said it is because of the incident and the cover-up... A cover-up that started when he was a beat copper at GMP
DarloRich
Veteran Member
he is in charge and he carries the can. Sorry but with position comes accountability and responsibility.
But was this the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. I do fear however that this is some kind of scape-goating to appease public outrage rather than his personally being liable.
HMS Ark Royal
Established Member
So even though he was a PC from GMP and never been to the SYP area as a serving officer until years after the tragedy, you would still see him thrown out?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Exactly
DarloRich
Veteran Member
agreed - but it is worth remembering that the evidence given by the police at the enquiry was, essentially, that given all along. It was categorically rejected by the jury. Someone agreed on that approach.
The issue is that poling in this country relies upon the consent of the community to be policed. That consent is being put at risk by the erosion of public trust in the police in South Yorkshire.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
St Georges Hall in Liverpopl is gearing up for some sort of memorial concert\ceremony later today. Just been watching the choirs and singers sound checking and rehearsing. There are 96 candles outside the hall on the front steps and the pillars lampposts and bollards covered in Everton and Liverpool scarves tied to them. There is a significant crowd outside watching and flowers are being laid in front of the candles.
Very poignant, very moving and very emotional
Very poignant, very moving and very emotional
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HMS Ark Royal
Established Member
I wonder if the SYP's PCC knows what is due to be published regarding Operation Lamp
TheKnightWho
Established Member
Given many of the unusual procedures used by the police that were supposedly signed-off and legal (such as getting officers to make statements on white paper rather than in their books, which made them susceptible to doctoring - something which happened to 164 statements), are we likely to see many changes because of this second inquest?
No, it was about the way that SYP, and their lawyers, behaved during this inquest.
This is what Andy Burnham said about it...
"Shamefully, the cover-up continued in this Warrington court room. Millions of pounds of public money were spent retelling discredited lies.
Lawyers for retired officers threw disgusting slurs; those for today's force tried to establish that others were responsible for the opening of the gate.
If the police had chosen to maintain its apology, these inquests would have been much shorter."
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
He has been suspended for the way his force has behaved since 2012, when the force apologised. Their behaviour, and the behaviour of their lawyers, during the inquest has been nothing else than attempting to retract that apology and attempting to rewrite history. It is right that he is suspended given his force's behaviour in the last four years, not just here but also with the Orgreave cover-up and the Rotherham child sex scandal.
cjmillsnun
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Agreed.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
Given the hostile history between the newspaper and the city of Liverpool I'm not surprised. Probably far better for the newspaper to follow the old "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" advice
Just bear in mind that when you're criticising the Yorkshire police it's not really the boys and girls with funny hats and big boots that are at fault. The big problem - and there is/are a hu--uge problems - lies much further up the food chain than them.
Don't let this descend into a leftist police bash and don't use dead fans as a political stick.
What I find really annoying is that now the learned friends have made a packet over the past twenty seven years they're about to make another killing as the families start suing for hundreds of thousands. I thought that this was about justice for the dead, not for families to make money. The wrong 'uns are going to get their collective collars felt, be in no doubt of that. This is too big and too public for any more cover ups now. No amount of money will bring those kids back now.
Don't let this descend into a leftist police bash and don't use dead fans as a political stick.
What I find really annoying is that now the learned friends have made a packet over the past twenty seven years they're about to make another killing as the families start suing for hundreds of thousands. I thought that this was about justice for the dead, not for families to make money. The wrong 'uns are going to get their collective collars felt, be in no doubt of that. This is too big and too public for any more cover ups now. No amount of money will bring those kids back now.
HMS Ark Royal
Established Member
I disagree... Certainly the families should get some payment for the way they have been slandered over the years. Somebody might be more knowledgeable on such matters, but with these verdicts now fully established, can the families of the dead sue SYP and the local ambulance service for corporate manslaughter?
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Who's said that this is about money? In any case has it not occurred to you that those who lost bread winners / were too traumatized to work because of what they witnessed / suffered perhaps deserve some money coming their way? Shame on you for thinking otherwise.
Collective collars felt?? Oh please, those senior officers who herded those poor souls to their deaths deserve to go to prison and nothing less.
There is no doubt in my mind that some of the coppers on duty that day did their very best to help the injured where as some of the others really couldn't have given a toss. When mum's and dad's were waiting to see dead bodies in the freezing cold the coppers were inside eating chips and fried chicken. Even now retired police officers are claiming that they did nothing wrong. Absolute b*llsh*t.
My wife has been a police officer in the 'Met for many years and I'm damn proud of her but in this case the police were an absolute disgrace
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