Hilsea easements

Status
Not open for further replies.

Oracle

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2006
Messages
1,419
Location
Near Ashurst New Forest Station
A job opportunity has come up for my son in Hilsea, Portsmouth, along the road from the station. He might have to work 12-hour days and get back as best he can on any train. Are there easements for doubling-back to/from Fratton and Havant please?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

trc666

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2005
Messages
232
Location
Islington
I can't find an easement for doubling back but these are the return fares and season ticket prices if this helps (assuming Standard Class travel):

Havant - Hilsea
Anytime Day Return £3.60
Off Peak Day Return £3.50
Weekly £16.90
Monthly £64.90
3 Months
£194.70
6 Months
£389.40
Annual Gold Card £676.00

Havant - Fratton
Anytime Day Return £4.30
Off Peak Day Return £4.20
Weekly £19.60
Monthly
£75.30
3 Months
£225.80
6 Months £451.60
Annual Gold Card £784.00
 
Joined
6 Nov 2011
Messages
155
Assuming he is travelling from/to Ashurst New Forest (your location), he shouldn't need to double back.

He can change at Eastleigh or Southampton Central for Ashurst New forest, both of which are served from Hilsea.
 
Last edited:

John @ home

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
1 Mar 2008
Messages
5,147
The National Routeing Guide Instructions tell us that doubling back is passing through the same station twice on a single journey. Sometimes it's allowed. More often it isn't.

But we do need to know your son's proposed origin and destination to give tailored advice. Guessing Ashurst New Forest - Hilsea, a 7-day season ticket is £59.80. Don't buy it! It's a rip-off!

An Ashurst New Forest - Portsmouth Harbour 7-day season ticket is £58.30 and is better value. It can be used to or via any station in Portsmouth Group, but it's not (normally) valid at or via Havant.

GROUP STATIONS

Group Name: PORTSMOUTH GROUP
Stations: BEDHAMPTON, COSHAM, FAREHAM, FRATTON, HILSEA, PORTCHESTER, PORTSMOUTH HARBOUR, PORTSMOUTH & SOUTHSEA

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/group_stations.pdf
An Ashurst New Forest - Havant 7-day season ticket is £57.90 and is even better value. It may be a rip-off too, but it's the best I can find at the moment.

Due to the Group Stations rule, it is valid via any station in Portsmouth Group.
National Routeing Guide Instructions said:
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
It is also valid for starting, breaking or ending a journey at any intermediate station on any Permitted Route between Ashurst New Forest and Havant by Condition 16 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Hilsea is on a Permitted Route between Ashurst New Forest and Havant because Ashurst New Forest - Hilsea - Havant (31.75 miles) is less than 3 miles longer than the shortest route (30.5 miles).
National Routeing Guide in Detail said:
Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf
Therefore I suggest an Ashurst New Forest - Havant ticket.
 

clagmonster

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,168
An Ashurst New Forest - Portsmouth Harbour 7-day season ticket is £58.30 and is better value. It can be used to or via any station in Portsmouth Group, but it's not (normally) valid at or via Havant.
Why is this ticket valid to/via any station in the Portsmouth Group? The group stations rule does not apply, as the destination on the ticket, Portsmouth Harbour, is a member of the Portsmouth Group. The shortest route is clearly Ashurst-Southampton-Fareham-Cosham-Hilsea-Portsmouth Harbour, and going via Bedhampton is more than 3 miles longer than this (see below)
Cosham-Hilsea 1.5 miles

Hilsea-Bedhampton 3 miles
Bedhampton-Cosham 3.25 miles
Total 6.25 miles

I am in agreement that this ticket is valid via/to any station in the Portsmouth Group with the exception of Bedhampton and is not valid via/to Havant.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,790
Why is this ticket valid to/via any station in the Portsmouth Group? The group stations rule does not apply, as the destination on the ticket, Portsmouth Harbour, is a member of the Portsmouth Group. The shortest route is clearly Ashurst-Southampton-Fareham-Cosham-Hilsea-Portsmouth Harbour, and going via Bedhampton is more than 3 miles longer than this (see below)
Cosham-Hilsea 1.5 miles

Hilsea-Bedhampton 3 miles
Bedhampton-Cosham 3.25 miles
Total 6.25 miles

I am in agreement that this ticket is valid via/to any station in the Portsmouth Group with the exception of Bedhampton and is not valid via/to Havant.
I agree. I think there is a typo somewhere in the post you quoted.

The Havant ticket is however valid via any station in the Portsmouth Group as it is not part of the group which means the Group Station Rule applies.
 

Oracle

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2006
Messages
1,419
Location
Near Ashurst New Forest Station
Thanks..yes I should have said ANF to Hilsea via Fratton or Havant. National Rail seems to suggestat times doubling-back from Fratton, or to go to Havant then change.

By the way is the Porchester-London anomaly, as per Swanwick's, still extant? When I lived in Locks Heath the Swanwick - London ticket allowed travel via Southampton Central or Havant/Portsmouth Direct for the same price as from Southampton Airport Parkway! I think Porchester tickets were the same?
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
3,843
Location
Wittersham Kent
Thanks..yes I should have said ANF to Hilsea via Fratton or Havant. National Rail seems to suggestat times doubling-back from Fratton, or to go to Havant then change.

By the way is the Porchester-London anomaly, as per Swanwick's, still extant? When I lived in Locks Heath the Swanwick - London ticket allowed travel via Southampton Central or Havant/Portsmouth Direct for the same price as from Southampton Airport Parkway! I think Porchester tickets were the same?
Atoc/sn invisibility cloak mode
For the duration of the marshlink blockade id recommend an Ashford International to beauleigh Road RTe barnham 7 day season from webtis!



 

andyc20050

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2011
Messages
82
Yes, Portchester to Waterloo is the same price via Eastleigh or Havant, although my parents say that years ago one route was dearer.

I normally use Southern to Victoria Super off Peak Travelcard with my Gold Card £11.40 compared to £24.25 by SWT to Waterloo.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,790
Thanks..yes I should have said ANF to Hilsea via Fratton or Havant. National Rail seems to suggestat times doubling-back from Fratton, or to go to Havant then change.

By the way is the Porchester-London anomaly, as per Swanwick's, still extant? When I lived in Locks Heath the Swanwick - London ticket allowed travel via Southampton Central or Havant/Portsmouth Direct for the same price as from Southampton Airport Parkway! I think Porchester tickets were the same?
Swanwick - London Terminals Route Any Permitted is valid via either Southampton Central or Portsmouth Group (with double-back within the group permitted for interchange purposes).

Portchester - London Terminals Route Any Permitted is valid via either Eastleigh or Portsmouth Group (but no double-back within the group). It is not valid via Southampton Central.
 

John @ home

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
1 Mar 2008
Messages
5,147
Why is this ticket valid to/via any station in the Portsmouth Group?
The calculation is:
Ashurst New Forest is associated with Southampton Group and Weymouth Group Routeing Points (RPs)
Portsmouth Harbour is a member of Portsmouth Group RP.

Portsmouth Group comprises Bedhampton, Cosham, Fareham, Fratton, Hilsea, Portchester, Portsmouth Harbour and Portsmouth & Southsea. Southampton Group comprises Millport, Redbridge, Southampton Airport Parkway, Southampton Central, St Denys and Swaythling. Weymouth Group comprises Dorchester South, Dorchester West, Upwey and Weymouth.

Fares check
ASHURST N FOREST - SOUTHAMPTON CTL SDS £3.80
ASHURST N FOREST - WEYMOUTH SDS £21.40
ASHURST N FOREST - PORTSMOUTH HBR SDS £11.50
Therefore Southampton Group is the appropriate RP for Ashurst New Forest for this journey.

Permitted Routes Southampton Group - Portsmouth Group are shown on map CW (only). This shows a line from Southampton Group to Portsmouth Group not passing through any other RP. Therefore any route from Southampton Group to Portsmouth Group which does not pass through any other RP is a Permitted Route for this journey.

Permitted Routes Ashurst New Forest - Portsmouth Harbour are:
  • by the shortest route from Ashurst New Forest to the first member of Southampton Group (Redbridge), then
  • by any route from Redbridge to the last member of Southampton Group (Southampton Airport Parkway or Southampton Central), with doubling back available for interchange purposes, then
  • by any route which does not pass through any other RP from the last member of Southampton Group to the first member of Portsmouth Group (Fareham). There are two such routes:
    • Southampton Airport Parkway - Eastleigh - Fareham, and
    • Southampton Central - Swanwick - Fareham.
  • then by a route from Fareham to the destination (Portsmouth Harbour). There are two such routes, neither of which involve doubling back:
    • Fareham - Portchester - Cosham - (avoiding Bedhampton) - Hilsea - Fratton - Portsmouth & Southsea - Portsmouth Harbour, and
    • Fareham - Portchester - Cosham - Bedhampton - Hilsea - Fratton - Portsmouth & Southsea - Portsmouth Harbour.
It is evident that clagmonster and bb21 take the view that the segment of the journey from the first station in the destination RP Group to the destination printed on the ticket must be by the shortest route, or by a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route. I can find nothing in the National Routeing Guide Instructions which justifies such a restriction. The relevant sentence on how to determine Permitted Route(s) is:
If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted routes between routeing points.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
The Instructions are silent on the route which may be taken between the first station in the destination RP Group and the destination printed on the ticket. My view is that, in the absence of any instructions, the passenger may choose which route to take where there is more than one route between the first station in the destination RP Group and the destination printed on the ticket.

If that is so, every station in Portsmouth Group is on a mapped route between Ashurst New Forest and Portsmouth Harbour.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,790
The calculation is: It is evident that clagmonster and bb21 take the view that the segment of the journey from the first station in the destination RP Group to the destination printed on the ticket must be by the shortest route, or by a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.
Actually that was not my reason.

I incorrectly inferred from clagmonster's mention of the Group Station Rule that doubling-back must have been involved somewhere (without looking at the map), but can see now that there is no double-back.

Yes, it is valid if there is no double-back within the destination routeing point group.
 

clagmonster

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,168
"by any route which does not pass through any other RP from the last member of Southampton Group to the first member of Portsmouth Group (Fareham)."
"There are two such routes:
Southampton Airport Parkway - Eastleigh - Fareham"
Eastleigh is a routeing point.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 21

The trouble is, interpreting "plus the permitted routes between routeing points" in a case where the destination on the ticket is a member of a routeing group. The instructions are badly written, they should really state one way or the other, but I think you have persuaded me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top