History of on-train PA systems in the UK

[Western 52]

With today's fairly comprehensive on-train information systems its easy to forget that its not that long ago when there was virtually no on-train information. Back in the 1970s I cannot remember any trains with PA systems in the UK other than those formed of Mk2 or Mk3 stock, apart from some Mk1 catering cars formed in otherwise Mk2 sets. As far as I know no Mk1 coaches had PA apart from some catering vehicles (retro fitted I'd guess) and maybe sleepers(?). First generation DMU and EMU sets didn't have any PA from what I remember. Second generation DMU sets all had PA from new as far as I know. Does anyone know the history of on-train PA in the UK?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Just off the top of my head, the 1960 Metro-Cam Blue Pullman units definitely had PA systems from new, not absolutely sure if the XP64 loco hauled stock were also fitted?

Edit: The mk1 Pullman stock built for the Eastern Region was also fitted from new with the wiring in place for the PA system although it was somewhat later in their service lives before the actual speakers were fitted and the system brought into use.

 

[AY1975]

With today's fairly comprehensive on-train information systems its easy to forget that its not that long ago when there was virtually no on-train information. Back in the 1970s I cannot remember any trains with PA systems in the UK other than those formed of Mk2 or Mk3 stock, apart from some Mk1 catering cars formed in otherwise Mk2 sets. As far as I know no Mk1 coaches had PA apart from some catering vehicles (retro fitted I'd guess) and maybe sleepers(?). First generation DMU and EMU sets didn't have any PA from what I remember. Second generation DMU sets all had PA from new as far as I know. Does anyone know the history of on-train PA in the UK?

I think some Mark 1s, particularly those used on charter trains, had PA systems retrofitted when they were refurbished, as did maybe some Mark 2As, 2Bs and 2Cs.

Many Mark 1-based EMUs such as the Southern Region CEPs, CIGs, VEPs and the like also had PA systems retrofitted on refurbishment.

AFAIK apart from the Blue Pullmans (and the original air-conditioned Manchester Pullmans?) the first coaches to be built with PA systems were the air-conditioned Mark 2s (starting with the Mark 2Ds, followed by the 2Es and 2Fs).

I believe that the Mark 2Ds (and maybe the 2Es and 2Fs) had pre-recorded announcements when built but I think these were soon abandoned in favour of manual announcements.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I think it was around 2000 when the PIS system boomed a bit. I know it had been around on stations in the form of tape for years before, with Phil and Celia coming in the 90s.

I’m sure one of the first units to be built with an actual automated PIS system may have been the 168s or the 170?

 

[Journeyman]

I think the first trains on the Southern with PA were the refurbished CEPs, with most other facelifted and refurbished slam door units following - the SR developed a fluorescent light fitting with PA speakers built into it that replaced tungsten lighting. This was sometime in the eighties, around the time the first refurbished EPBs appeared.

First trains on the Southern with PA from new were the 508s and 455s.

 

[30907]

Back in the 50s there was a series of "North Wales Land Cruises" with radio commentary - I wonder if these were the first use of PA?
http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1006c.htm

Slightly OT: when the Mk2Ds were introduced on the ECML, someone at York HQ had the idea of getting a local Vicar to record a set of on-train announcements. Apparently (my wife says) this startled a fair few York travellers, as he was well-known locally, and his church was popular with students especially.

 

[delt1c]

I think some Mark 1s, particularly those used on charter trains, had PA systems retrofitted when they were refurbished, as did maybe some Mark 2As, 2Bs and 2Cs.

Many Mark 1-based EMUs such as the Southern Region CEPs, CIGs, VEPs and the like also had PA systems retrofitted on refurbishment.

AFAIK apart from the Blue Pullmans (and the original air-conditioned Manchester Pullmans?) the first coaches to be built with PA systems were the air-conditioned Mark 2s (starting with the Mark 2Ds, followed by the 2Es and 2Fs).

I believe that the Mark 2Ds (and maybe the 2Es and 2Fs) had pre-recorded announcements when built but I think these were soon abandoned in favour of manual announcements.

If my memory serves me correctly ( and it often doesn’t ) the Pre recorded messages on the Mk 2d were trigger based on distance taken from wheel sets. Problem was that with even a small diversion the messages could get out of sync

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Back in the 50s there was a series of "North Wales Land Cruises" with radio commentary - I wonder if these were the first use of PA?
http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1006c.htm

Slightly OT: when the Mk2Ds were introduced on the ECML, someone at York HQ had the idea of getting a local Vicar to record a set of on-train announcements. Apparently (my wife says) this startled a fair few York travellers, as he was well-known locally, and his church was popular with students especially.

There were also some innovative "TV Cruise trains" , with a recording studio in the brake van , operating on the West Highland line. Such minded passengers could go along and "do a turn". Such was the attraction of TV over spectacular Scottish scenery. Late 1950's. ?

 

[Merle Haggard]

The Euston-Northampton LH sets (all Mk1s) had P.A. in NSE days, and I think that the similar Thames Valley sets (which included, I think, some Mk 2s) were similarly equipped.
As mentioned above in connection with CEPs, the speakers were in the same mounting as the fluorescent lights, fitted during refurb.

 

[route101]

I think it was around 2000 when the PIS system boomed a bit. I know it had been around on stations in the form of tape for years before, with Phil and Celia coming in the 90s.

I’m sure one of the first units to be built with an actual automated PIS system may have been the 168s or the 170?

Yeah, I think Scotrail 170s had them from new before any other units had PIS.

 

[365 Networker]

Yeah, I think Scotrail 170s had them from new before any other units had PIS.

I think the Networkers where actually the first trains on BR to have a PIS system - the 465s, 466s and Turbos had screens and manual PA and the 365s also had Automated Announcements. On LU the 1992 stock was the first to have Automated Announcements.

 

[route101]

I think the Networkers where actually the first trains on BR to have a PIS system - the 465s, 466s and Turbos had screens and manual PA and the 365s also had Automated Announcements. On LU the 1992 stock was the first to have Automated Announcements.

I see, I should of said Scotrail units.

 

[Western 52]

I think it was possible for catering staff in the Mk1 buffet and restaurant cars to make announcements from those vehicles, so presumably they had more equipment than just speakers. I remember one train where the buffet staff played a recording from a cassette player at slow speed and high volume. It certainly woke the passengers up!

 

[Taunton]

PA was such a novelty before about 1970 that it was often referred to as "radio". The best known was CIE in Ireland who put together a trainset used on very regular, almost daily in summer, excursions from Dublin to Killarney, Connemara, etc, known as the "Radio Train". Road coaches then did local tours from the destination station. It became one of the key attractions for any tourist to Ireland to do and was extensively publicised. I think it started about 1949, surprisingly early, and was steam hauled for quite some time. It also did the pilgrimage trains from Dublin to Knock Shrine. The challenge in those times was the electronics of doing long-line public address down the length of the train, in the days before transistors etc, when it needed electric valves. Those who didn't know these times in technology cannot imagine how difficult and unreliable it all was, I would guess the CIE train would need to carry a full time engineer to deal with it all when out on the line, with spare valves in their toolkit, etc, and doing very frequent patrols up and down the train to see it was all still working.

The regular commentator from a "studio" in the van was a well known Irish poet and fiction writer, who had nevertheless started as an accounts clerk in the CIE finance office!

Here's some publicity for it :

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2016_04/11053429_10152587688030518_8224283774392003852_n.jpg.9c7bf15d4c595c145a31aca9180905bd.jpg

Those who recall their Rev Awdry books (or were pleased to remake their acquaintance when their children, and again grandchildren, came along) will know of the "Television Train" story on the books' pastiche of the Talyllyn. Awdry was a Talyllyn volunteer and it was based on a real visit by the Railway Roundabout TV crew, led by John Adams and Pat Whitehouse. However, it was nothing live or broadcast in the train; it was recorded for later transmission.

My own first experience was on the Bristol Pullman, which I described elsewhere. I still remember it.

 

[LowLevel]

I think it was possible for catering staff in the Mk1 buffet and restaurant cars to make announcements from those vehicles, so presumably they had more equipment than just speakers. I remember one train where the buffet staff played a recording from a cassette player at slow speed and high volume. It certainly woke the passengers up!

There is a handset in the kitchen on Mk1 vehicles so fitted.

 

[Welly]

I remember being surprised to hear a PA from the train guard when on board a Norwich - Liverpool Street train circa 1980.

 

[randyrippley]

I remember being surprised to hear a PA from the train guard when on board a Norwich - Liverpool Street train circa 1980.

the 156 fleet used on that route had a PA system which could be used both by guard and driver, though that would have been a bit later.

 

[satisnek]

To the best of my knowledge the 'Blue Pullman' units were the first to have PA systems in the UK. I have yet to find any detailed information but I would hazard a guess that the system was based on aviation technology (I believe PA systems were established in passenger aircraft by this time) and used valves.

The 1966 Manchester Pullman stock was also PA fitted as built, but I don't know if this used the Ripper system or was a bespoke installation.

Mark 2d and subsequent loco-hauled stock were fitted with Ripper Robots equipment, which transmitted along the existing carriage lighting control wires and therefore required no additional cabling between coaches. As mentioned above, many earlier vehicles were retrofitted with this kit. Some years back I found the schematics on the Web (it may have been a link from this very forum) - I had always thought that it was a carrier wave system but it's actually nothing more than a balanced audio signal transmitted down the train.

As for multiple units, I'm not sure which was the first. Class 313? Like hauled stock, much was retrofitted. In the case of the Southern slammers the PA used the same wires as, or was closely related to, the guard-to-driver communication. I can certainly remember it going 'click click' when the guard signalled the driver to depart.

Any problems with valve technology in the early days would have been a result of the vibration prevalent in a train-borne environment. Otherwise, it was very reliable, certainly after WW2. Static equipment, such as station PA amplification, was installed, switched on, set up and then left alone for 20 years or more, much the same as today. The problem with valve amplifiers on transport was that they were big, heavy, gave off lots of heat and required complex power supplies. Transistor equipment, on the other hand, can run directly from the 24V DC carriage lighting supply.

 

[Journeyman]

I think you're right about the 313s being the first production multiple units with PA from new. I think the PEP prototypes were fitted with it too.

Was it a standard fitment during the DMU refurbishment scheme?

 

[LowLevel]

I think you're right about the 313s being the first production multiple units with PA from new. I think the PEP prototypes were fitted with it too.

Was it a standard fitment during the DMU refurbishment scheme?

I don't believe the DMUs were fitted, certainly the 101s weren't. Class 121s with ATW and Chiltern being the exception.

 

[Journeyman]

I don't believe the DMUs were fitted, certainly the 101s weren't. Class 121s with ATW and Chiltern being the exception.

Right, it's not something I remember in the 1980s refurbs. I wonder if it was ever fitted to the later Regional Railways refurbs? They got a fair amount of work done on them in the early 90s.

 

[LowLevel]

Right, it's not something I remember in the 1980s refurbs. I wonder if it was ever fitted to the later Regional Railways refurbs? They got a fair amount of work done on them in the early 90s.

They're the ones I'm referring to - definitely not, the Longsight/Scottish 1016xx refurbs were never fitted until the day they were withdrawn

 

[Sprinter107]

The suburban 116s and 117s were certainly never fitted with a p.a system upon refurb.

 

[krus_aragon]

I don't believe the DMUs were fitted, certainly the 101s weren't. Class 121s with ATW and Chiltern being the exception.

I never noticed the PA in Arriva's 121 Bay Bubble used: the guard could just as easily open the cab door and talk to the passengers directly!

 

[Man of Kent]

I think Tyne & Wear Metro, opened in 1980, was probably the first system to have a complete fleet with PA installed. It was driver-only operation from the word go. I can't remember if there was PA on the new Glasgow undeground stock of similar date - was it driver only from from new, or did that come later?

 

[Journeyman]

I think Tyne & Wear Metro, opened in 1980, was probably the first system to have a complete fleet with PA installed. It was driver-only operation from the word go. I can't remember if there was PA on the new Glasgow undeground stock of similar date - was it driver only from from new, or did that come later?

Yes, the modernised Glasgow Subway was driver only from the date it reopened.

 

[Western 52]

The Hidden Inquiry which followed the 1988 Clapham rail crash contained a recommendation number 85 which said all new trains should have PA systems plus all those which would have at least another 5 years of life. I don't think this happened though in all cases?

 

[Dstock7080]

I think Tyne & Wear Metro, opened in 1980, was probably the first system to have a complete fleet with PA installed. It was driver-only operation from the word go. I can't remember if there was PA on the new Glasgow undeground stock of similar date - was it driver only from from new, or did that come later?

Victoria Line 1967 Tube Stock had train PA system from new.
As did the later C Stock (1970 introduced) and 1972 mkI Stock.

 

[Journeyman]

Victoria Line 1967 Tube Stock had train PA system from new.
As did the later C Stock (1970 introduced) and 1972 mkI Stock.

I suspect PA was a requirement to permit operation without guards on the Victoria line.