History of Transpennine services

[quantinghome]

I'm familiar with the evolution of Transpennine services from the early 90s following the introduction of the Class 158s.

But what was the Leeds-Manchester service like prior to this?

I vaguely remember loco-hauled services in the 1980s, but which cross-Pennine line was considered the 'premier' route for long distance services?

And which Manchester station was served?

 

[Revaulx]

The LNW route via Huddersfield has been the premier one since the Grouping, and probably ever since it opened; it’s the most direct.

Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Exchange (Victoria post May 1969) - Leeds City - Hull Paragon was served by the fabulous Class 124 DMUs from about 1960 until the late 70s.

The Liverpool - York - Newcastle trains were loco hauled, almost exclusively by 40s, in the same era. These weren’t as regular as the Hulls.

Others will be more qualified to explain what happened later; I rather lost touch with the route in the 80s. The loco haulage got a lot more varied, with 31s, 46s, 47s and even Deltics appearing.

Until it closed in 1966, quite a lot of them took the Leeds New Line between Huddersfield and Leeds, rather than the original (and surviving) route through Heaton Lodge Junction and Dewsbury. Despite its tight curves and nasty gradients it tended to be faster, avoiding the section through Mirfield shared with the ex-L&Y.

 

[Brooke]

Others will be more qualified to explain what happened later; I rather lost touch with the route in the 80s. The loco haulage got a lot more varied, with 31s, 46s, 47s and even Deltics appearing.

In the late 80s, locos on the Huddersfield route were almost always 47s, with others only occasionally popping up.

In the early 80s, I believe there was more variety: 46s and 47s mainly, but many other types.

And then on top there were DMUs, but I don’t know what types.

 

[Capybara]

In the late-60s and early-70s trains would generally leave Leeds for Manchester (Victoria after Exchange closed) at xx:45 but there would be additional trains in between, but not regular. We used regularly to catch the 07:45 from Leeds to Stalybridge where we changed for Crewe. That was a Trans-Pennine dmu on a service from Hull and took 56 minutes to reach Stalybridge which we thought was quite fast at the time - the journey can take as little as 36 minutes today. As said above, Newcastle to Liverpool services were generally Class 40-hauled but sometimes it would be a Peak.

 

[Neptune]

From my memories of the 80’s it was mainly peaks on the Liverpool - Newcastle via Diggle and Man Vic route up to their removal from the route around 1987. Deltics did appear in the early 80’s when they were based at York.

47/4’s became the core traction thereafter and 47475 was even painted in provincial colours to match the stock. The early mk2 rakes in Provincial colours were generally formed of a BG, FK and maybe 5 TSO’s from memory.

158’s took over in 1991.

 

[30907]

In the early 60s the Hull service (eastbound was 2-hourly) was slightly more frequent than the Newcastle, but there was also the remains of the ex-L&Y Liverpool-York route: twice daily, via the Wigan avoider, Victoria (whence there were another couple of York trains), the Calder Valley and Wakefield; the main service that way went via Halifax to serve Bradford and Leeds.

 

[hexagon789]

47/4’s became the core traction thereafter and 47475 was even painted in provincial colours to match the stock. The early mk2 rakes in Provincial colours were generally formed of a BG, FK and maybe 5 TSO’s from memory.

158’s took over in 1991.

Originally 8 coaches to Scarborough and 9 to Newcastle, Scarborough then became 150s and the Newcastle sets were shortened to load 8.

In about 1990 pending 158 delivery, the sets were shortened further - First Class was abolished, the BG replaced by a BSO and the whole set cut to 5 coaches.

 

[mike57]

I used the route occasionally in the mid 80's. A few of the services from York to Manchester Victoria were extended to Chester and North Wales, I used this a few times to visit Bangor for work. As others have said loco hauled, mainly Mk2 (or maybe Mk1, memories are not that detailed) stock and from memory 45/46/47 at the front. Also seemed to stop a lot between Leeds and Manchester. The introduction of the 158s and routing into Manchester Pic really made the route a lot more useful. Seem to remember that occured during the late 80's/early 90s, someone else can probably put a date to it. Of course this led to the demise of the Stalybridge - Stockport shuttle, as there was no longer a need for it as you could now change at Pic for destinations south and west of Manchester. Wasnt it around this time the Windsor chord opened as well, allowing trains running through the Castlefield corridor to access the line to Bolton

 

[nw1]

Only thing I remember in the hauled era was the two-hourly Liverpool to Newcastle hauled by 47s, with Mk-I stock. I spent a week in Durham in the summer of 1988 and saw some of these.

Never actually used the route until the 158 era (1997 to be precise) when the pattern was 3tph. All would call at Huddersfield, with some calling at Stalybridge and/or Dewsbury. No other stations between Manchester (Piccadilly) and Leeds were called at, though.

 

[Magdalia]

1974 was the first all line timetable. The loco hauled Liverpool-Newcastle service was limited. From the Liverpool end there were departures at 0810 and 1010 returning from Newcastle at 1610 and 1808. From the Newcastle end there were departures at 0750 and 1002 returning from Liverpool at 1510 and 1710. the other trains via the ex LNWR route were Trans Pennine DMUs mainly to/from Hull but with a few to/from York.

Going back into the early 1960s some of the Liverpool-Newcastle trains went from Leeds via Wetherby, Harrogate and Ripon, not York.

One famous train from the 1960s was a Friday evening Manchester Exchange to York which was steam hauled until quite close to the end of steam.

 

[D6130]

Back in the late 'sixties/early 'seventies, the mid-morning Newcastle-Liverpool ran via the Durham coast line, calling at Sunderland, West Hartlepool and departing from Stockton at 11 06 - diagrammed for a Gateshead 46. For the gaggle of spotters hanging around the Marlborough Road footbridge at Hartburn Junction, it was the highlight of our day....especially on the occasions when a 40 or 45 substituted for the booked 46. There was presumably a corresponding return working in the evening, although I don't recall ever having seen it. This was my default spotting location during the school holidays when staying with my grandparents on Teesside.

 

[Ken H]

The class 124's were nice. Compartments and a buffet. And a nice flatulent exhaust!. Based at botanic gardens in hull.
The L&Y route had its own DMUs, Cl 110 from BRCWC. Bigger engines.

But the LNW route was basically hourly.
But there was a late evening TPO with passenger coaches.

 

[nw1]

1981 seemed to have an alternating pattern out of Liverpool of even hours Newcastle, odd hours York, at xx05.

I've also got access to marshalling books (on the brcoachingstock group on groups.io) from other years in the 80s, will probably come back with these later.

The above were hauled stock. Presumably Trans-Pennine DMUs were still operating at this point (so I'd guess there were Hulls as well), but these are not shown in the marshalling books.

 

[alistairlees]

150s started appearing on Liverpool - Scarborough turns in 1986, replacing 45/1 (or 47/4) and loco-hauled stock.

 

[Magdalia]

1981 seemed to have an alternating pattern out of Liverpool of even hours Newcastle, odd hours York, at xx05.

I've also got access to marshalling books (on the brcoachingstock group on groups.io) from other years in the 80s, will probably come back with these later.

The above were hauled stock. Presumably Trans-Pennine DMUs were still operating at this point (so I'd guess there were Hulls as well), but these are not shown in the marshalling books.

There were very few Hull trains via Diggle in 1981: 0748 and 1551 to Manchester Victoria, 0716 and 1557 from Manchester Victoria, with nothing to/from Liverpool. By 1981 most of the Trans Pennine DMUs were working Manchester Piccadilly/Hull via the Hope Valley.

 

[Swanley 59]

Back in the late 'sixties/early 'seventies, the mid-morning Newcastle-Liverpool ran via the Durham coast line, calling at Sunderland, West Hartlepool and departing from Stockton at 11 06 - diagrammed for a Gateshead 46. For the gaggle of spotters hanging around the Marlborough Road footbridge at Hartburn Junction, it was the highlight of our day....especially on the occasions when a 40 or 45 substituted for the booked 46. There was presumably a corresponding return working in the evening, although I don't recall ever having seen it. This was my default spotting location during the school holidays when staying with my grandparents on Teesside.

We made our annual family pilgrimage to Bolton on the mid-morning Newcastle - Liverpool service. I must have been "lucky" as I had more 40s than 46s. The former could be replied upon to be at least 10 minutes late into Exchange. I vividly remember the resulting mad dash along the long platform to Victoria to catch the connecting service.

 

[Taunton]

The big change came in 1961, when the service was dieselised, and put on a (semi) even interval basis. Broadly the new 6-car Trans-Pennine dmus were put onto a two-hour interval service all day between Liverpool and Hull, while Liverpool to Newcastle services were dieselised with Class 46 Peaks allocated to Newcastle, run at the intervening hours to give an even hourly service morning and afternoon between Liverpool and Leeds. As stated above, there were two morning trains and two evening trains from each end, locos and stock making a single round trip. At this early stage the Manchester station served was still Exchange, after some years that was closed and they moved along the platform (literally) to Victoria.

By chance the second morning train was always in Liverpool Lime Street preparing for departure when the daily Liverpool to Plymouth (via Taunton) train left, and later the first such afternoon train was ready to go when the Plymouth service returned us there. It was always a Gateshead Peak, but I've read enough accounts that Class 40s were regulars on this run as well to accept that too, maybe the other services, or different years. This pattern did seem to last for about 20 years. There were some fill-in services at the ends of the day and in the mid-day gaps that covered part of the route. One of the Trans-Pennine units only worked as far as Manchester in the early afternoon, and then took up the key commuter service of the day to Blackpool, returning next morning.

The Trans=Pennine units were theoretically fixed sets, but individual cars seemed somewhat unreliable, if one of the intermediates it would just be left out, while the end cars were sometimes replaced by a Met-Cam low density power car, which always looked a bit odd. I think it must have been 1965 and, visiting Manchester Exchange by chance, what should come in on one of the westbound loco-hauled expresses but an A1 Pacific, even at this late stage. I can't tell you any more about which service, or if it went right through to Liverpool.

 

[Capybara]

One of the Trans-Pennine units only worked as far as Manchester in the early afternoon, and then took up the key commuter service of the day to Blackpool, returning next morning.

That nicely explains the one I saw (and photographed) at Preston in 1971.

 

[Grumpy]

The big change came in 1961, when the service was dieselised, and put on a (semi) even interval basis. Broadly the new 6-car Trans-Pennine dmus were put onto a two-hour interval service all day between Liverpool and Hull, while Liverpool to Newcastle services were dieselised with Class 46 Peaks allocated to Newcastle,

When first dieselised the Liverpool-Newcastle services were operated with class 40's-2 based at Gateshead and 2 nominally Edge Hill although anything based on the LM could turn up. Which for a young spotter made these worth waiting for.
After a couple of years the 46's replaced all the 40's

 

[nw1]

There were very few Hull trains via Diggle in 1981: 0748 and 1551 to Manchester Victoria, 0716 and 1557 from Manchester Victoria, with nothing to/from Liverpool. By 1981 most of the Trans Pennine DMUs were working Manchester Piccadilly/Hull via the Hope Valley.

Ah, ok, thanks.

By 1983 the service pattern out of Liverpool had become:

0705, 0905, 1205 Scarborough
0805, 1005, 1405, 1605 Newcastle
1805, 2040 York

So looks like in 1983 it had been cut back to two-hourly for most of the day from Liverpool, though as I said the marshalling books only show hauled stock. Conceivable there may have been Trans-Pennine DMUs in the 'missing' hours? Not sure.

There didn't appear to be any Manchester Victoria starters in the 'missing' hours either.

As I've said in other threads, though, there were quite a few cuts between 1981 and 1983, such as Manchester-Birmingham going down to mostly two-hourly, so perhaps not altogether surprising (if there were indeed no DMUs running on top of what's here).

 

[alistairlees]

Ah, ok, thanks.

By 1983 the service pattern out of Liverpool had become:

0705, 0905, 1205 Scarborough
0805, 1005, 1405, 1605 Newcastle
1805, 2040 York

So looks like in 1983 it had been cut back to two-hourly for most of the day from Liverpool, though as I said the marshalling books only show hauled stock. Conceivable there may have been Trans-Pennine DMUs in the 'missing' hours? Not sure.

There didn't appear to be any Manchester Victoria starters in the 'missing' hours either.

As I've said in other threads, though, there were quite a few cuts between 1981 and 1983, such as Manchester-Birmingham going down to mostly two-hourly, so perhaps not altogether surprising (if there were indeed no DMUs running on top of what's here).

This was because, from 1983, some services were to / from north Wales, whilst the basic hourly service between Manchester and Leeds remained - so Liverpool lost some services. I'll try and post a summary later.

 

[nw1]

This was because, from 1983, some services were to / from north Wales, whilst the basic hourly service between Manchester and Leeds remained - so Liverpool lost some services. I'll try and post a summary later.

Ah - ok, thanks.

Would be interesting to know if these were the only Liverpool-Manchester fast services, or whether there was a fast DMU provided to keep Liverpool-Manchester at hourly? Or something which went to Piccadilly and onwards (to Sheffield???) via the CLC route?

I would have expected so as less-than-hourly between two large cities in close proximity would seem very infrequent.

 

[Harvester]

One famous train from the 1960s was a Friday evening Manchester Exchange to York which was steam hauled until quite close to the end of steam.

It was steamed hauled until the end of 1967, and strangely diagramed for a Kingmoor Britannia during that autumn. The engine would work into Manchester on an early morning parcels train from Carlisle, before doing the York run. 70013 performed the last steam working on Friday 29/12/67.

 

[Taunton]

When first dieselised the Liverpool-Newcastle services were operated with class 40's-2 based at Gateshead and 2 nominally Edge Hill although anything based on the LM could turn up. Which for a young spotter made these worth waiting for.
After a couple of years the 46's replaced all the 40's

I can place the first 46 seen exactly, it was in October 1962, our first trip on the Taunton-Liverpool; at Crewe Mr Taunton Senior had nipped out onto the platform for a smoke while the Warship was being changed for an electric loco, passed by chance the W H Smith, and returned with, for youthful me, the October 1962 Modern Railways, the one with the white D0260 Lion on the front cover . On we went to Liverpool where there was D166 waiting to depart on the 5pm for Newcastle, still shiny and new.

None of this from notes, it's all been rolling round at the back of my head for, what, 60 years! Still got the magazine too, though haven't seen it for years, in a box way at the back of the attic (image from the Internet)

 

[Welshman]

Back in the late 'sixties/early 'seventies, the mid-morning Newcastle-Liverpool ran via the Durham coast line, calling at Sunderland, West Hartlepool and departing from Stockton at 11 06 - diagrammed for a Gateshead 46. For the gaggle of spotters hanging around the Marlborough Road footbridge at Hartburn Junction, it was the highlight of our day....especially on the occasions when a 40 or 45 substituted for the booked 46. There was presumably a corresponding return working in the evening, although I don't recall ever having seen it. This was my default spotting location during the school holidays when staying with my grandparents on Teesside.

I remember the afternoon services from Newcastle to Liverpool were at 3.16pm and 4.47pm.
The former was a bit of a run-around service, calling at Durham Coast stations to Northallerton and then via Ripon and Harrogate to Leeds City via Wetherby. [The Liverpool-Newcastles via Harrogate went via Wetherby rather than Horsforth to save a reversal in Leeds].
The latter was a faster service via Darlington and York.

One famous train from the 1960s was a Friday evening Manchester Exchange to York which was steam hauled until quite close to the end of steam.

I seem to remember that towards the end of steam this Fridays-only duplicate went via the Calder Valley to avoid congestion over the Standedge route, as the Micklehurst loop had been closed by then.

Until it closed in 1966, quite a lot of them took the Leeds New Line between Huddersfield and Leeds, rather than the original (and surviving) route through Heaton Lodge Junction and Dewsbury. Despite its tight curves and nasty gradients it tended to be faster, avoiding the section through Mirfield shared with the ex-L&Y.

In effect the New Line was faster as it avoided the congested centres of Mirfield, Ravensthorpe, Dewbury and Batley.
It was, though, a difficult route, and following rationalisation of the route via Dewsbury there was not much difference in timings. In my experience in the last months of the New Line, trains could go either way and still be to time at Leeds/Huddersfield.

 

[Bevan Price]

When first dieselised the Liverpool-Newcastle services were operated with class 40's-2 based at Gateshead and 2 nominally Edge Hill although anything based on the LM could turn up. Which for a young spotter made these worth waiting for.
After a couple of years the 46's replaced all the 40's

That was the theory, but reliability was less than perfect, and steam substitutions out of Liverpool continued fairly often until 1967 - but steam was normally replaced by diesel at Leeds. Class 40s often appeared instead of 46s into the 1980s. As noted above, from 1983, through services to Liverpool were reduced, with some Trans Pennine services diverted to North Wales. Class 47 started with early occasional appearances, but had become the normal booked power by the end of loco haulage. Classes 31 & 55 made occasional appearance if a 47 was unavailable; I was once told that if a Deltic was used, it usually ran on half power, with only one of the two engines operating. Can anyone confirm? Certainly they did not need 3300 hp to keep time with only 5 or 6 coaches. Very rarely, a Class 37 would replace a failed loco.

Train loads were steadily reduced over the years. Steam era Liverpool/Newcastle trains were typically 11 or 12 coaches; this changed to 9/10 coaches on dieselisation, and gradually declined to only 5 coaches. Most steam era services ran via Harrogate rather than York, with reversal & loco change (LMSR to/from LNER) at Leeds. On dieselisation, those trains avoided reversal at Leeds by going via Wetherby to Harrogate - until that route, and Harrogate to Northallerton were closed.

Class 124 was also reduced from 6 to 5 coaches in later years, and even some 4 coach formations appeared.

Sometimes a non-124 driving motor car was substituted for a failed 124 driving motor, but there was no through corridor connection between the substitute and the rest of the Class 124.

 

[Welshman]

In my opinion, the low-point of the Trans-Pennine services came when 150s were substituted for loco-hauled stock. And if a 150 was not available, anything could turn up. I remember seeing a photograph at Chester station of a 2-car pacer working a Holyhead-Hull express!

Sometimes a non-124 driving motor car was substituted for a failed 124 driving motor, but there was no through corridor connection between the substitute and the rest of the Class 124.

I used to hope a Met-Cam driving motor would be substituted for the 124 coach, as that meant a front-seat view all the way from Hull to Liverpool in 2nd Class! [The 124s had 1st class at both ends, and that was enthusiastically policed!]

 

[hexagon789]

I was once told that if a Deltic was used, it usually ran on half power, with only one of the two engines operating. Can anyone confirm?

Quite possibly, linespeed was only 65mph over the Pennines until the 1990s I understand so, even supplying ETS one engine would probably suffice.

Sometimes a non-124 driving motor car was substituted for a failed 124 driving motor, but there was no through corridor connection between the substitute and the rest of the Class 124.

Usually a 101 DMC but 110s did occasionally appear - I've seen at least one photo.

I used to hope a Met-Cam driving motor would be substituted for the 124 coach, as that meant a front-seat view all the way from Hull to Liverpool in 2nd Class!

Only if a DMBS or declassified as in layer years, certainly in the 1960s the preferred substitution was a 101 DMC with First class accommodation.

The 124s had 1st class at both ends, and that was enthusiastically policed!

And in the buffet cars when they still had them.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just to clarify, did pre-1990s 'Trans Pennine' services from the Leeds/Huddersfield direction, to Manchester and stations beyond, tend to use Piccadilly or Victoria (or both)? Talking about the 1970s/1980s here.

 

[Harvester]

I remember the afternoon services from Newcastle to Liverpool were at 3.16pm and 4.47pm.
The former was a bit of a run-around service, calling at Durham Coast stations to Northallerton and then via Ripon and Harrogate to Leeds City via Wetherby. [The Liverpool-Newcastles via Harrogate went via Wetherby rather than Horsforth to save a reversal in Leeds].
The latter was a faster service via Darlington and York.

The 4.20pm afternoon service from Newcastle to Liverpool via the Durham Coast, ceased to take that route from 2nd January 1961 when the services were revised. It then became the 4.47pm departure running via Durham and Darlington. Until the above date the train was diagramed from Newcastle to Leeds for a Neville Hill A3.