• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Hitachi IET Performance on Hills

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bigman

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2011
Messages
297
Location
Leeds
Has a Hitachi IET ever been up the Lickey and if so how did it perform? My only experience of an IET on diesel power was a TPE 802 from Leeds to York and back. It seemed to struggle on Peckfield Bank, so I was wondering how it would perform on even steeper banks. I am guessing that Cheetham Hill out of Manny Vic must test them a fair bit as must the climbs up to Standedge.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
Has a Hitachi IET ever been up the Lickey and if so how did it perform? My only experience of an IET on diesel power was a TPE 802 from Leeds to York and back. It seemed to struggle on Peckfield Bank, so I was wondering how it would perform on even steeper banks. I am guessing that Cheetham Hill out of Manny Vic must test them a fair bit as must the climbs up to Standedge.
A standard 800/802 on whatever maximum power settings Hitachi permit shouldn't do too badly, the downgraded LNER sets are slower over Slochd and Drumochter than HSTs though. I believe they adjusted the arrival time in Perth southwards to compensate for one.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
Has a Hitachi IET ever been up the Lickey

I don't believe they are gauge cleared for the Lickey so no.

IETs have been up Beattock though so I wonder how they fared on that (albeit I suspect they would be on electric mode)
 

gingertom

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2017
Messages
1,251
Location
Kilsyth
Has a Hitachi IET ever been up the Lickey and if so how did it perform? My only experience of an IET on diesel power was a TPE 802 from Leeds to York and back. It seemed to struggle on Peckfield Bank, so I was wondering how it would perform on even steeper banks. I am guessing that Cheetham Hill out of Manny Vic must test them a fair bit as must the climbs up to Standedge.
They are on the Highland Main Line too, so there's the infamous southbound climb to Slochd summit. Any drivers on here able to comment?
 

Bigman

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2011
Messages
297
Location
Leeds
Of course I was forgetting that the GWR ones go over the Devon banks, so how do they compare to say 220's on the banks?
 

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
1,692
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
I remember going on an 802 from Lea Green to Leeds sat in the middle coach and I couldn’t hear any traction motor or engine sounds so I pressume that only 2/5 coaches were powered compared to the usual 3/5.

I couldn’t notice any difference in performance on electric, but my god it felt slow on diesel. It still kept to time though.
 

superalbs

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,460
Location
Exeter
Of course I was forgetting that the GWR ones go over the Devon banks, so how do they compare to say 220's on the banks?
In my experience they're a little bit sad, you can hear them struggling.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
I remember going on an 802 from Lea Green to Leeds sat in the middle coach and I couldn’t hear any traction motor or engine sounds so I pressume that only 2/5 coaches were powered compared to the usual 3/5.

I couldn’t notice any difference in performance on electric, but my god it felt slow on diesel. It still kept to time though.
It was my understanding that if one engine failed the traction motors on that car were still fed power but from the other vehicles. I thought that was a design feature of the bi-mode 80x?
 

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
1,692
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
It was my understanding that if one engine failed the traction motors on that car were still fed power but from the other vehicles. I thought that was a design feature of the bi-mode 80x?
It must have been a motor issue if it was the same whilst the pantograph was raised. I remember that it did have the physics of a trailer carriage i.e. ‘shunting’ when the brakes were applied.
 

irish_rail

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2013
Messages
3,813
Location
Plymouth
Of course I was forgetting that the GWR ones go over the Devon banks, so how do they compare to say 220's on the banks?
220 far quicker. An 802 with all engines working can just about top Hemerdon at 60ish. In comparison a 2+8 HST would need to have power shut off to prevent it going over 60mph at the summit.
 

Sean Emmett

Member
Joined
9 Mar 2015
Messages
496
220 far quicker. An 802 with all engines working can just about top Hemerdon at 60ish. In comparison a 2+8 HST would need to have power shut off to prevent it going over 60mph at the summit.
Yes indeed, but the 802 will usually clear Hemerdon quicker than an HST, due to the faster start out of Plymouth.

Similar from Totnes to Dainton Eastbound, and Newton Aboot to Dainton Westbound.

OK there are logs of HSTs with quicker ascents, but these tended to take liberties with the speed restrictions on the curves at the foot of the banks.
 

irish_rail

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2013
Messages
3,813
Location
Plymouth
Yes indeed, but the 802 will usually clear Hemerdon quicker than an HST, due to the faster start out of Plymouth.

Similar from Totnes to Dainton Eastbound, and Newton Aboot to Dainton Westbound.

OK there are logs of HSTs with quicker ascents, but these tended to take liberties with the speed restrictions on the curves at the foot of the banks.
That depends how it is driven. Personally I don't whack open the power out of Plymouth as there is a long stretch of 25mph , and instead allow speed to build smoothly and gradually upto 25mph, in much the same way as a HST. Similarly, once linespeed increases after mutley tunnel, again, I don't just whack it open like a toy, but gradually allow speed to increase on the downward gradient to Laira, again giving very similar acceleration as a HST.
Thankfully most other drivers do the same. Nothing worse than being on an IET than when the driver only uses two positions on the power controller , on and off. Makes for one hell of a poor ride.
 

Bluejays

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2017
Messages
475
That depends how it is driven. Personally I don't whack open the power out of Plymouth as there is a long stretch of 25mph , and instead allow speed to build smoothly and gradually upto 25mph, in much the same way as a HST. Similarly, once linespeed increases after mutley tunnel, again, I don't just whack it open like a toy, but gradually allow speed to increase on the downward gradient to Laira, again giving very similar acceleration as a HST.
Thankfully most other drivers do the same. Nothing worse than being on an IET than when the driver only uses two positions on the power controller , on and off. Makes for one hell of a poor ride.
Very true.
 

slidingdoors

Member
Joined
15 Apr 2017
Messages
141
A standard 800/802 on whatever maximum power settings Hitachi permit shouldn't do too badly, the downgraded LNER sets are slower over Slochd and Drumochter than HSTs though. I believe they adjusted the arrival time in Perth southwards to compensate for one.
How are LNER units downgraded out of interest? So the performance is less than say the GWR ones?
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
How are LNER units downgraded out of interest? So the performance is less than say the GWR ones?
It's not quite that simple.
Class 800 and 801 bi-modes (supplied under the IEP contract to GWR and LNER) have a limit on the power allowed on diesel (part of the maintenance contract).
Class 802 (purchased by FirstGroup for GWR, TPE, Hull Trains) have a higher power rating (notionally for the Devon banks on GWR).
So on GWR is all depends whether your train is an 800/801 or an 802 (usually an 802 for the south west).
LNER only have class 800 bi-modes, with the limited power setting.
Electric performance is unaffected.
 

D6975

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
2,864
Location
Bristol
The 800s as delivered were ‘snipped’ to produce less power than an 802 (less rigorous maintenance regime). They did however have a built in allowance for the engines to be more fully utilised if one engine failed. GWR 800s have however since been reprogrammed to be the same as 802s, so are more powerful than Eastern ones.

ps 801s are not bi-modes, they are pure electrics.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,164
It's not quite that simple.
Class 800 and 801 bi-modes (supplied under the IEP contract to GWR and LNER) have a limit on the power allowed on diesel (part of the maintenance contract).
Class 802 (purchased by FirstGroup for GWR, TPE, Hull Trains) have a higher power rating (notionally for the Devon banks on GWR).
So on GWR is all depends whether your train is an 800/801 or an 802 (usually an 802 for the south west).
LNER only have class 800 bi-modes, with the limited power setting.
Electric performance is unaffected.
Not this again. It has been stated numerous times on here by people in the know that the GWR 800s are now full rated under diesel power.

Please don’t keep perpetuating this urban myth.
 

Randomer

Member
Joined
31 Jul 2017
Messages
314
ps 801s are not bi-modes, they are pure electrics.

I thought the 801's are technically bi-mode* but very low performance ones due to the single generator unit for the whole train? I think I read that the units for First East Coast, the 803s with backup batteries for hotel power, will be the only pure electric AT300 Hitachi units being used on the ECML.

* Excepting the current strangeness about Hitachi not allowing the GU to be used to propel the train at low speed but only for hotel services as was discussed here some time in the last year or so.
 

D6975

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
2,864
Location
Bristol
The generator on an 801 is not for normal use, it's only capable of very low speed shunting or emergency moves.
 

RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
2,742
One thing I've noticed since mass IET introduction is their better performance climbing Rattery and Dainton, when I say better performance im referring specifically to better adhesion. I seem to remember every autumn numerous HST'S slipping to a stand on both (I've been stuck on one or two!). I expect this is down to an IET having every axle powered.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,164
One thing I've noticed since mass IET introduction is their better performance climbing Rattery and Dainton, when I say better performance im referring specifically to better adhesion. I seem to remember every autumn numerous HST'S slipping to a stand on both (I've been stuck on one or two!). I expect this is down to an IET having every axle powered.
IETs do not have every axle powered. They do have more powered than an HST, though.
 

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,461
GWR Class 800 GUs have been uprated to produce similar outputs to 802s.

No they haven’t. Apart from the first 3 (which were then test units), all the GWR 800 units were delivered with the higher 700kw software rating already in place. The other 3 were altered before they entered passenger service.

Unit 4 was the unit that did the timing and fuel tests in early 2017 that proved the need for all of the GWR units to run at 700kw, the same power rating as a 802.

If wiki is still telling you otherwise, it is still wrong.
 

notadriver

Established Member
Joined
1 Oct 2010
Messages
3,653
No they haven’t. Apart from the first 3 (which were then test units), all the GWR 800 units were delivered with the higher 700kw software rating already in place. The other 3 were altered before they entered passenger service.

Unit 4 was the unit that did the timing and fuel tests in early 2017 that proved the need for all of the GWR units to run at 700kw, the same power rating as a 802.

If wiki is still telling you otherwise, it is still wrong.

I did mean 700kW. It’s my understanding the originally they produced less. LNER’s i believe are only good for 560kW
 

irish_rail

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2013
Messages
3,813
Location
Plymouth
One thing I've noticed since mass IET introduction is their better performance climbing Rattery and Dainton, when I say better performance im referring specifically to better adhesion. I seem to remember every autumn numerous HST'S slipping to a stand on both (I've been stuck on one or two!). I expect this is down to an IET having every axle powered.
Absolutely. IeT beats Hst hands down in terms of pulling away in slippery conditions. Worlds apart...however braking wise, I've noticed IETs slip a little more than HSTs did, although not enough to warrant concern.
 

DannyMich2018

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2018
Messages
732
Had a week in Devon at Dawlish Warren. Seen plenty of 802s in both 5, 9 and 10 car formation. Seen a couple of 800s too. Had a ride eastbound from Totnes to Newton Abbot. In my opinion performance appears to be only a bit less better than voyages. Was my first trip on an IET. Those seats are awful though....
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
however braking wise, I've noticed IETs slip a little more than HSTs did, although not enough to warrant concern.
No tread brakes while the HST had them on the power cars? Possibly the tread brakes also helped condition the wheels sufficiently during braking to give an noticeable difference in poor adhesion conditions against an IET which would be discs only.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top