Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

[Raul_Duke]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43639183

“A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder after a suspected burglar was stabbed to death.

The homeowner discovered two intruders in South Park Crescent, Hither Green, south-east London, at about 00:45 BST.

One suspect, armed with a screwdriver, forced the man into his kitchen where a struggle ensued and he was stabbed, Scotland Yard said.

The 38-year-old was taken to hospital by paramedics but was pronounced dead at 03:40.

The pensioner, who suffered bruising to his arms, has been arrested on suspicion of murder.

He remains in custody at a south London police station.

Image copyrightPA
Image captionThe 78-year-old discovered two intruders in his house in South Park Crescent
Police said they were called to the property over reports of a burglary when they found the man collapsed in nearby Further Green Road with a stab wound to the upper body.

One man who lives on the street said there had been a recent spate of burglaries in the area and his home had been broken into in recent months.

'Doesn't deserve punishment'
"I was renovating the house and they broke in and took a laptop. I know this has happened to others recently," he said.

Adam Lake, another local resident, said he "wasn't surprised" to hear about the burglary.

"We've even had to put up CCTV at home because we didn't feel safe," he said.

"I feel terrible for the man that was burgled. He doesn't deserve to be punished for defending himself," he said.

Image captionForensic officers are carrying out investigations at the house
The dead man's next of kin have been informed and a post-mortem examination would take place "in due course", the Met said.

A second suspect remains at large.

Local ward Councillor Mark Ingleby described the killing as a "tragedy" and said it had come "out of the blue".

He said there had been a "definite improvement" on tackling burglaries in the area thanks to an active Neighbourhood Watch scheme.

New security gates had also been installed to prevent trespassers accessing alleyways behind houses, he said.”

 

[OneOffDave]

I'd say it's fairly sensible to arrest someone where they've taken action that has resulted in someone's death. It's probable that he won't be charged but a proper investigation does need to take place. In his shoes, I'd expect to be arrested and interviewed under caution

 

[GB]

Why can't a proper investigation take place without having to be arrested. Why do you need to be arrested to be interviewed under caution?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Self defence

 

[GB]

Self defence

Obviously none of us here know the finer details of this case but if it is a genuine case of self defence then arresting someone for it sends out completely the wrong message imo.

 

[OneOffDave]

Why can't a proper investigation take place without having to be arrested. Why do you need to be arrested to be interviewed under caution?

Because they'll want to seize his clothes and prevent him from being able to interfere with the evidence at the scene of the crime. They'll also want to prevent him speaking to third parties.

 

[GB]

Nothing to stop the guy fully co-operating without being arrested though. (if indeed he was being cooperative.

 

[OneOffDave]

Obviously none of us here know the finer details of this case but if it is a genuine case of self defence then this sends out completely the wrong message imo.

But before we know that it's self defence, we have to have some kind of investigative process to determine that. Was the guy stabbed with something that just happened to be to hand, or was a pre positioned edged weapon used? We don't know at this point in time.

Nothing to stop the guy fully co-operating without being arrested though.

He might want to cooperate but, as the investigating copper are you prepared to risk your investigation on your quick assessment of an old chap you've never met before?

 

[Iskra]

Self defence doesn’t stop someone being charged. It needs investigating all the same.

And it only works if the person used reasonable force. The CPS will decide if prosecution is in the public interest.

Even then, it could go all the way to court, be found guilty but get a very light sentence.

 

[NSEFAN]

Nothing to stop the guy fully co-operating without being arrested though. (if indeed he was being cooperative.

Being arrested isn't in itself a punishment. The police aren't psychic and someone isn't necessarily harmless just because of their demographic, so if someone kills someone else it's only right that they are arrested until such time as the facts can be established.

 

[telstarbox]

Is there anything significant in being arrested on suspicion of murder rather than manslaughter?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is there anything significant in being arrested on suspicion of murder rather than manslaughter?

Reducing a murder charge to manslaughter usually happens later on in the investigative/judicial process. In the early stages, there's just a body and a suspect, but how those two interacted still needs to be established.

 

[Antman]

Being arrested isn't in itself a punishment. The police aren't psychic and someone isn't necessarily harmless just because of their demographic, so if someone kills someone else it's only right that they are arrested until such time as the facts can be established.

Being arrested shouldn't be seen as a negative, happened to me once wrong time wrong place etc but I've no complaints about it, I was subsequently released without charge. In the circumstances the police wouldn't have had any other option, I'm sure he'll be well looked after.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why can't a proper investigation take place without having to be arrested. Why do you need to be arrested to be interviewed under caution?

To protect any evidence, obtain DNA and if necessary conduct a search without interference.

 

[greyman42]

Self defence doesn’t stop someone being charged. It needs investigating all the same.

And it only works if the person used reasonable force. The CPS will decide if prosecution is in the public interest.

Even then, it could go all the way to court, be found guilty but get a very light sentence.

All he would have to do is plead not guilty. No jury would ever convict him.

 

[Iskra]

All he would have to do is plead not guilty. No jury would ever convict him.

We don’t know the facts yet, but I wouldn’t be so sure. The jury is deciding ‘did he do it’ not ‘do you think he was right to do it,’ therefore a conviction is likely.

 

[greyman42]

What the jury are told to decide and what they chose to decide could influence a verdict. I would never convict him.

 

[radamfi]

Being arrested shouldn't be seen as a negative, happened to me once wrong time wrong place etc but I've no complaints about it, I was subsequently released without charge. In the circumstances the police wouldn't have had any other option, I'm sure he'll be well looked after.

You can't visit the US under the "Visa Waiver Program" if you have been arrested, even if there was no conviction. You have to apply for a visa.

 

[WelshBluebird]

What the jury are told to decide and what they chose to decide could influence a verdict. I would never convict him.

Does that not depend on what actually happened though? Something which is yet to be fully known? For all you know he could have chased the guy away and killed him in cold blood (based on media reports that isn't what happened, but the media are not a reliable source on which to decide somebodies innocent or guilt). Hence the arrest and investigation. From the police's point of view, they have a dead body, someone who killed the person, and a weapon that did the damage.

 

[cactustwirly]

All he would have to do is plead not guilty. No jury would ever convict him.

You don't know that! You don't know the full circumstances of the case.
The pensioner only had minor bruising, whilst the burglar was killed.

 

[greyman42]

Does that not depend on what actually happened though? Something which is yet to be fully known? For all you know he could have chased the guy away and killed him in cold blood (based on media reports that isn't what happened, but the media are not a reliable source on which to decide somebodies innocent or guilt). Hence the arrest and investigation. From the police's point of view, they have a dead body, someone who killed the person, and a weapon that did the damage.

I think it is safe to say he did not chase him and kill him in cold blood. If he did he is a very fit 78 year old.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think it is safe to say he did not chase him and kill him in cold blood. If he did he is a very fit 78 year old.

He may not have chased him, but you can't dismiss the possibility of murder at this stage.
The police would be very stupid just to take the pensioners word that it was just self defence, without a full investigation.

I'm not saying the pensioner was a murderer, either, it's just too early to make judgements.

 

[greyman42]

Why has the other suspect in this case not been down to the Police station to try and shed some light on the matter?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think it is safe to say he did not chase him and kill him in cold blood. If he did he is a very fit 78 year old.

Again - with an investigation how do you know? While unlikely - there are some 78 year olds who are fitter than some younger people. Hence why you need an investigation. Someone is dead. Do you really think it is right that we just believe the word of the suspect without investigating it?

Look - I am not saying the guy is a murderer. The poor bloke probably have the fright of his life and probably did act in self defense. But my point is we need to follow due process regardless of the case.

 

[cactustwirly]

Why has the other suspect in this case not been down to the Police station to try and shed some light on the matter?

Because he is a burglar... If you're a criminal, the last thing you're going to do, is to turn yourself over to the police!
The police will probably be trying to track him down and question him.
Obviously the police aren't going to share every detail of the investigation to the media (they'll be keeping their card close to their chest, so to speak)

 

[Iskra]

Why has the other suspect in this case not been down to the Police station to try and shed some light on the matter?

You're coming across as very defensive. No-one is supporting armed robbery here, but it's also a bit early to be vindicating the gentleman's actions considering someone has died and we know very few facts.

 

[AlterEgo]

What the jury are told to decide and what they chose to decide could influence a verdict. I would never convict him.

Hopefully you don’t ever do jury service if you’re saying that before the trial even begins.

 

[greyman42]

You're coming across as very defensive. No-one is supporting armed robbery here, but it's also a bit early to be vindicating the gentleman's actions considering someone has died and we know very few facts.

I come across as very defensive because I am very defensive towards the 78 year old victim. If the dead person had not gone out to burgle peoples houses then no doubt he would be alive now.

 

[bramling]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43639183

“A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder after a suspected burglar was stabbed to death.

The homeowner discovered two intruders in South Park Crescent, Hither Green, south-east London, at about 00:45 BST.

One suspect, armed with a screwdriver, forced the man into his kitchen where a struggle ensued and he was stabbed, Scotland Yard said.

The 38-year-old was taken to hospital by paramedics but was pronounced dead at 03:40.

The pensioner, who suffered bruising to his arms, has been arrested on suspicion of murder.

He remains in custody at a south London police station.

Image copyrightPA
Image captionThe 78-year-old discovered two intruders in his house in South Park Crescent
Police said they were called to the property over reports of a burglary when they found the man collapsed in nearby Further Green Road with a stab wound to the upper body.

One man who lives on the street said there had been a recent spate of burglaries in the area and his home had been broken into in recent months.

'Doesn't deserve punishment'
"I was renovating the house and they broke in and took a laptop. I know this has happened to others recently," he said.

Adam Lake, another local resident, said he "wasn't surprised" to hear about the burglary.

"We've even had to put up CCTV at home because we didn't feel safe," he said.

"I feel terrible for the man that was burgled. He doesn't deserve to be punished for defending himself," he said.

Image captionForensic officers are carrying out investigations at the house
The dead man's next of kin have been informed and a post-mortem examination would take place "in due course", the Met said.

A second suspect remains at large.

Local ward Councillor Mark Ingleby described the killing as a "tragedy" and said it had come "out of the blue".

He said there had been a "definite improvement" on tackling burglaries in the area thanks to an active Neighbourhood Watch scheme.

New security gates had also been installed to prevent trespassers accessing alleyways behind houses, he said.”

I can understand the arrest in order to preserve the integrity of an investigation. *However*, it the circumstances are as they seem then I would hope and expect the investigation to be wrapped up quickly without wasting taxpayers money and without imposing anymore stress on the victim in all of this - who is of course the householder.

This may upset some, however every burglar knows the risk they take when they enter someone else's home, so I have no sympathy at all if the outcome of the attempted burglary is the burglar sustains a fatal injury. In fact I'd go as far as to say good riddance.

 

[cactustwirly]

I come across as very defensive because I am very defensive towards the 78 year old victim. If the dead person had not gone out to burgle peoples houses then no doubt he would be alive now.

So? Even though he/she was a burglar, doesn't mean they should be killed!