Hither Green crash - 50 years ago tonight

[Busaholic]

I think the 50th anniversary of this dreadful accident should be mentioned. 49 people lost their lives that misty night, and many more suffered injuries. A packed Hastings to Charing Cross train of 12 carriages was derailed (apart from the first carriage) with four landing on their sides. Perhaps surprisingly. there were a great many standing passengers at 9 p.m. on a Sunday, but in those days many people gathered in Trafalgar Square on Fireworks Night, even though there was no official fireworks display. I was myself on the way to meet a friend at Charing Cross station that night, travelling from my home in Bromley, intending to go from Bromley North with a change at Grove Park, but I somehow missed the train at BN by a minute and instead reached Grove Park by bus, but the connecting train had gone too, of course. Sitting on the platform, annoyed with myself, and having twenty minutes to wait, I recollect a fast train going through that seemed packed. Suffice to say that was almost certainly the train that crashed, and, in any case, without knowing exactly what had happened, the few of us on the platform were politely told that there'd be no trains tonight and could we please leave the station? It was quite evident from the commotion, the bells ringing urgently everywhere and the distressed manner of the staff (more of them there than you might imagine now) that something catastrophic had occurred just down the line so, being young, stupid and curious, I set off down the road and, within a few minutes, came across the scene of carnage, which had happened by the St Mildred's Road bridge on the South Circular Road. Compared with what would happen today, there was almost no noise other than from the crash sight. Ambulances/fire engines etc only had bells, not sirens, and in the prevailing gloom even their sound was muffled anyway. No roads got cordoned off, although I believe buses were diverted virtually straightaway. I felt helpless, but I decided I could be of some slight assistance when I saw that ambulances leaving the scene were in danger of colliding with others arriving, plus traffic going across St Mildred's Road from the side roads, so I became a pointsman for the duration (two hours, maybe, in all) and, standing in the middle of the road, did my bit.

You'll understand, perhaps, why I've not celebrated November 5th since then, and why I shed a tear or two when I think back.

 

[Cowley]

An incredibly sobering and moving story Busaholic.
I remember you saying a while ago that you were in the area when it happened but I didn’t realise how much you’d witnessed.
I listened to an interview with Robin Gibb of Bee Gees fame recently who was of course a well known survivor of the crash, listening to him describing the dreadful events of the evening really bought home the terror that the passengers on that train must have experienced.

 

[Joe Paxton]

An incredibly sobering and moving story Busaholic.

Agreed.

I can too well imagine a 'young, stupid and curious' version of myself going along to investigate something similar.

From today's viewpoint, the lack of a more comprehensive incident control procedure with roads being closed off and traffic being controlled seems quite odd, but going by reports of other such happenings what you saw seems to have been par for the course back then. Well done for stepping in to help.

The thought of you likely having seen the busy train in question is quite haunting.

I suppose the crash is a reminder that the everyday and often overlooked business of maintenance and inspections on the railways remains absolutely crucial.

 

[Bromley boy]

I think the 50th anniversary of this dreadful accident should be mentioned. 49 people lost their lives that misty night, and many more suffered injuries. A packed Hastings to Charing Cross train of 12 carriages was derailed (apart from the first carriage) with four landing on their sides. Perhaps surprisingly. there were a great many standing passengers at 9 p.m. on a Sunday, but in those days many people gathered in Trafalgar Square on Fireworks Night, even though there was no official fireworks display. I was myself on the way to meet a friend at Charing Cross station that night, travelling from my home in Bromley, intending to go from Bromley North with a change at Grove Park, but I somehow missed the train at BN by a minute and instead reached Grove Park by bus, but the connecting train had gone too, of course. Sitting on the platform, annoyed with myself, and having twenty minutes to wait, I recollect a fast train going through that seemed packed. Suffice to say that was almost certainly the train that crashed, and, in any case, without knowing exactly what had happened, the few of us on the platform were politely told that there'd be no trains tonight and could we please leave the station? It was quite evident from the commotion, the bells ringing urgently everywhere and the distressed manner of the staff (more of them there than you might imagine now) that something catastrophic had occurred just down the line so, being young, stupid and curious, I set off down the road and, within a few minutes, came across the scene of carnage, which had happened by the St Mildred's Road bridge on the South Circular Road. Compared with what would happen today, there was almost no noise other than from the crash sight. Ambulances/fire engines etc only had bells, not sirens, and in the prevailing gloom even their sound was muffled anyway. No roads got cordoned off, although I believe buses were diverted virtually straightaway. I felt helpless, but I decided I could be of some slight assistance when I saw that ambulances leaving the scene were in danger of colliding with others arriving, plus traffic going across St Mildred's Road from the side roads, so I became a pointsman for the duration (two hours, maybe, in all) and, standing in the middle of the road, did my bit.

You'll understand, perhaps, why I've not celebrated November 5th since then, and why I shed a tear or two when I think back.

Fascinating, if sobering, to read. Many thanks for posting.

There was a rememberance service yesterday at Hither Green station and the 50th anniversary of the event has been promoted locally.

 

[steevp]

There was also a memorial service at the local church (St Mildred's, Lee) organised at the invitation of Lewisham Council.

 

[30907]

Thank you for posting that.

Some crashes stick in the memory. I vividly remember the news coming in, and can still "see" the pictures of the crash scene and the close-up of the broken rail joint.

I hadn't realised, though, that Bonfire Night might have been the cause of the heavy loading of the train (though it was last stop Sevenoaks, wasn't it?).

And sadly, in a month we reach the 60th anniversary of Lewisham

 

[Busaholic]

Thank you for posting that.

Some crashes stick in the memory. I vividly remember the news coming in, and can still "see" the pictures of the crash scene and the close-up of the broken rail joint.

I hadn't realised, though, that Bonfire Night might have been the cause of the heavy loading of the train (though it was last stop Sevenoaks, wasn't it?).

And sadly, in a month we reach the 60th anniversary of Lewisham

I have to say that I've never read anywhere that being Bonfire Night might have been part of the cause of the heavy loadings on that train: it's my own conjecture based on what I remember of Trafalgar Square being a mecca on that evening. Whether there were later trains back than usual for a Sunday evening I wouldn't know,either, but someone might.

Thank you to everybody for your kind comments - although I never witnessed any of the suffering or saw any bodies (some rudimentary screens were in place by the time I arrived at, I'd guess, about 40 minutes after the accident) it is something that remains with me and barely a week will go by without my thinking about it. The fact that the accident site was one I'd passed twice every schoolday (and that was six days a week in my case) from 1959 until Xmas 1965 makes it more poignant for me too.

I don't want to get a reputation for being morbid, but I've just read the Weather column in the Times newspaper today and, apparently, 70 years ago today, so 6th November 1947, was a pretty bad day for the railway in London with THREE separate accidents in which the impenetrable fog of that evening was a crucial factor. The worst was at Motspur Park, with 105 casualties including 4 dead: shortly afterwards at Herne Hill a train from Ramsgate ran a red light and ripped out the side of all eight carriages on a West Croydon-bound train, sending half of one down an embankment. Mercifully, only one person lost their life, but 23 were injured. To cap it all, a passenger train collided with a parcel train outside Euston and some coaches were derailed with 30 injuries. Paul Simons was the author of the newspaper piece, incidentally, and it's always a fascinating column to anyone interested in the after-effects of weather.

 

[John Webb]

"Red for Danger" (4th Edition) suggests the train was crowded as a result of it being a Sunday with people visiting the seaside at Hastings, or returning from visiting relatives at various places on the line that the train called at.
For those not familiar with this event, an undetected fatigue crack at a rail joint allowed a section of track to break away under the train resulting in a derailment. The units involved were two of the 'Hastings' DEMUs. The accident investigation was headed by Colonel McMullen, the then chief HMI of Railways. He concluded that the maintenance of track on the Southern Region had not matched the density and speed of the traffic that was running over it.
I lived at that time with my parents on Shooter's Hill, not far from the fire station and only a few miles from Hither Green, and heard the appliances turn out, not knowing at the time that's what they were heading for.

 

[theblackwatch]

This accident has several pages coverage on the latest issue of The Railway Magazine (although admittedly, I haven't got round to reading it yet).

I don't want to get a reputation for being morbid, but I've just read the Weather column in the Times newspaper today and, apparently, 70 years ago today, so 6th November 1947, was a pretty bad day for the railway in London with THREE separate accidents in which the impenetrable fog of that evening was a crucial factor. The worst was at Motspur Park, with 105 casualties including 4 dead: shortly afterwards at Herne Hill a train from Ramsgate ran a red light and ripped out the side of all eight carriages on a West Croydon-bound train, sending half of one down an embankment. Mercifully, only one person lost their life, but 23 were injured. To cap it all, a passenger train collided with a parcel train outside Euston and some coaches were derailed with 30 injuries. Paul Simons was the author of the newspaper piece, incidentally, and it's always a fascinating column to anyone interested in the after-effects of weather.

I think this goes to show how much safer the railway system is nowadays.

 

[theageofthetra]

"Red for Danger" (4th Edition) suggests the train was crowded as a result of it being a Sunday with people visiting the seaside at Hastings, or returning from visiting relatives at various places on the line that the train called at.
For those not familiar with this event, an undetected fatigue crack at a rail joint allowed a section of track to break away under the train resulting in a derailment. The units involved were two of the 'Hastings' DEMUs. The accident investigation was headed by Colonel McMullen, the then chief HMI of Railways. He concluded that the maintenance of track on the Southern Region had not matched the density and speed of the traffic that was running over it.
I lived at that time with my parents on Shooter's Hill, not far from the fire station and only a few miles from Hither Green, and heard the appliances turn out, not knowing at the time that's what they were heading for.

Hadn't several drivers reported rough riding at the location previously?- though how that got reported back in those days I don't know?

 

[John Webb]

Hadn't several drivers reported rough riding at the location previously?- though how that got reported back in those days I don't know?

There is no mention in the Official Report about railway staff, particularly drivers, commenting adversely on rough riding at that location. But many passengers did write in to both BR and national papers to complain in general about the rough ride of these units, according to "Red for Danger" and other books. The Official Report clearly shows a lack of liaison between the PW staff and the operating staff over changes to frequency and speed of trains - had that been better it's possible the PW staff may have carried out improved inspections. One needs to recall that 50 years ago the PW staff didn't have the range of test equipment, including trains, that Network Rail now has available.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is no mention in the Official Report about railway staff, particularly drivers, commenting adversely on rough riding at that location. But many passengers did write in to both BR and national papers to complain in general about the rough ride of these units, according to "Red for Danger" and other books. The Official Report clearly shows a lack of liaison between the PW staff and the operating staff over changes to frequency and speed of trains - had that been better it's possible the PW staff may have carried out improved inspections. One needs to recall that 50 years ago the PW staff didn't have the range of test equipment, including trains, that Network Rail now has available.

For those interested in such things, the official report is well worth a read, and is available here:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Hither1967.pdf

Reading it now, 50 years on, and it is pretty clear that the change to maintenance practices, (to mechanised maintenance), and the raising of the line speed, was not properly managed. At least not by the standards of today. It also appears that the different implications of track damage by multiple units (compared to steam locos plus coaches) was not understood.

 

[Busaholic]

"Red for Danger" (4th Edition) suggests the train was crowded as a result of it being a Sunday with people visiting the seaside at Hastings, or returning from visiting relatives at various places on the line that the train called at.
For those not familiar with this event, an undetected fatigue crack at a rail joint allowed a section of track to break away under the train resulting in a derailment. The units involved were two of the 'Hastings' DEMUs. The accident investigation was headed by Colonel McMullen, the then chief HMI of Railways. He concluded that the maintenance of track on the Southern Region had not matched the density and speed of the traffic that was running over it.
I lived at that time with my parents on Shooter's Hill, not far from the fire station and only a few miles from Hither Green, and heard the appliances turn out, not knowing at the time that's what they were heading for.

I just find it rather unlikely that so many would be returning from the seaside at Hastings at that time on a Sunday night in November, particularly Bonfire Night. Maybe some fireworks parties mat have been attended a bit nearer to London, but then wouldn't there have been more children on the train? I wonder how much research was ever done into that aspect.

 

[Bromley boy]

For those interested in such things, the official report is well worth a read, and is available here:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Hither1967.pdf

Reading it now, 50 years on, and it is pretty clear that the change to maintenance practices, (to mechanised maintenance), and the raising of the line speed, was not properly managed. At least not by the standards of today. It also appears that the different implications of track damage by multiple units (compared to steam locos plus coaches) was not understood.

Thanks for linking to this. Absolutely fascinating.

I do feel a strong familiarity with this particular disaster, I wasn't even born when it happened, but I live five minutes' walk from Hither Green station on the site of the long since closed Park Fever hospital where some of the injured were apparently treated (the remainder were taken to Lewisham hospital, on Lewisham high street, which is still open today).

50 years on, where the railway runs atop the St Mildred's road bridge, there is still a prominent gash in the bridge girder. This is clearly visible from the cab when approaching the country end of the bridge on the "up fast" south eastern mainline.

I have been repeatedly told was caused by the impact of the train. I cannot confirm that is correct, of course, sadly neither can that report, but it seems very plausible.

 

[Busaholic]

Hadn't several drivers reported rough riding at the location previously?- though how that got reported back in those days I don't know?

Thanks for linking to this. Absolutely fascinating.

I do feel a strong familiarity with this particular disaster, I wasn't even born when it happened, but I live five minutes' walk from Hither Green station on the site of the long since closed Park Fever hospital where some of the injured were apparently treated (the remainder were taken to Lewisham hospital, on Lewisham high street, which is still open today).

50 years on, where the railway runs atop the St Mildred's road bridge, there is still a prominent gash in the bridge girder. This is clearly visible from the cab when approaching the country end of the bridge on the "up fast" south eastern mainline.

I have been repeatedly told was caused by the impact of the train. I cannot confirm that is correct, of course, sadly neither can that report, but it seems very plausible.

I can only say, on the subject of Hither Green Hospital, that I witnessed no ambulances heading in that direction after the crash, so any passengers that may have found their way there would be the walking wounded. I cannot imagine there'd have been many staff on duty on a Sunday evening anyway and any extra staff called in would have been directed to Lewisham and, quite possibly, Brook Hospital in which direction (i.e. the other way along the South Circular) some other ambulances sped. In 1974 I went to live in Hither Green as a young, married adult and I never once saw an ambulance, emergency or otherwise, at the hospital.

 

[Bromley boy]

I can only say, on the subject of Hither Green Hospital, that I witnessed no ambulances heading in that direction after the crash, so any passengers that may have found their way there would be the walking wounded. I cannot imagine there'd have been many staff on duty on a Sunday evening anyway and any extra staff called in would have been directed to Lewisham and, quite possibly, Brook Hospital in which direction (i.e. the other way along the South Circular) some other ambulances sped. In 1974 I went to live in Hither Green as a young, married adult and I never once saw an ambulance, emergency or otherwise, at the hospital.

That's interesting.

I got that from an article I found through a google search on a site called "lost hospitals of London*"

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/hithergreen.html

"In November 1967 another major train crashoccurred at Hither Green station, with 53 killed and 90 injured. The casualties were taken to Hither Green Hospital and to Lewisham Hospital."

As always with these things there's no way for it to be proved or disproved but, as you say it, it seems the hospital at no stage had an A&E, so it does seem a little odd that it should be able to cope with a mass casualty event like a train crash, especially with other hospitals so close at hand. Perhaps some walking wounded made their way there, as you say.

*as a former resident in hither green you may find the workhouses.org site the above article itself links to worth a read for pictures of the hospital site at various stages of its life. The large water tower and some of the small buildings at the George Lane end of the site, one of which is now a dr's surgery, are now all that remains of it.

 

[Taunton]

Hospitals in former times were a bit more generalist than now, and when a major incident like this happened they would be brought into the orbit, probably not for the most seriously injured but for those less so. I think that major disaster plans probably still rely on taking all the facilities in the area. This also applies to other resources, like taking over buses when all the ambulances are in use.

 

[theageofthetra]

Hospitals in former times were a bit more generalist than now, and when a major incident like this happened they would be brought into the orbit, probably not for the most seriously injured but for those less so. I think that major disaster plans probably still rely on taking all the facilities in the area. This also applies to other resources, like taking over buses when all the ambulances are in use.

Worth remembering that still nothing had been learned from the lives saved by the US military assistance at Harrow & Wealdstone & we still had no paramedic ambulance service.

 

[Busaholic]

Hospitals in former times were a bit more generalist than now, and when a major incident like this happened they would be brought into the orbit, probably not for the most seriously injured but for those less so. I think that major disaster plans probably still rely on taking all the facilities in the area. This also applies to other resources, like taking over buses when all the ambulances are in use.

Yes and no: there were many more hospitals then, some very specialised like isolation hospitals, children's hospitals, hospitals for the mentally sick etc, but also Cottage Hospitals which were not geared up for emergencies but for minor operations and procedures and were basically 'open' Monday to Friday daytimes with minimal staff to care for in-patients outside those times. My older brother, aged 5, died in Eltham Cottage Hospital on a Saturday morning, having had a routine tonsil removal operation on the Friday afternoon. The sole member of staff on the medical side was a trainee nurse who apparently had no idea of what to do about my brother's bleeding and, by the time help was received. he was dead. So not all hospitals were capable of receiving casualties, though there were more general hospitals than now too.

I mentioned that I saw ambulances travelling off in the 'other' i.e. non-Lewisham direction and I'm convinced they were bound for the Brook on Shooter's Hill. The latter ancient thoroughfare was rather renowned for its hospitals in the 1950s and 1960s (possibly longer) starting at the lower end with the Brook, then you had the Royal Herbert which had been a Military Hospital and was where my father, a tank driver, had first met my mother, a V.A.D. nurse, during the Second World War. Towards the top of the hill proper was the War Memorial Hospital where I had a minor op as a teenager, and which had become more or less a glorified cottage hospital by the 1970s. I believe there was another Day Hospital along there somewhere too (Casterwood, or some such name?) which I remember nothing about. The esteemed John Webb, if he is reading this, may be able to confirm or deny my recollections as I believe he grew up in the area.

 

[John Webb]

......I mentioned that I saw ambulances travelling off in the 'other' i.e. non-Lewisham direction and I'm convinced they were bound for the Brook on Shooter's Hill. The latter ancient thoroughfare was rather renowned for its hospitals in the 1950s and 1960s (possibly longer) starting at the lower end with the Brook, then you had the Royal Herbert which had been a Military Hospital and was where my father, a tank driver, had first met my mother, a V.A.D. nurse, during the Second World War. Towards the top of the hill proper was the War Memorial Hospital where I had a minor op as a teenager, and which had become more or less a glorified cottage hospital by the 1970s. I believe there was another Day Hospital along there somewhere too (Casterwood, or some such name?) which I remember nothing about. The esteemed John Webb, if he is reading this, may be able to confirm or deny my recollections as I believe he grew up in the area.

I did indeed - in fact I was born in the War Memorial Hospital in 1946! The Brook at the time of the Hither Green accident had an A&E department; I think it closed when a new one was built at Greenwich District Hospital a couple of miles away some time in the 1960s - that itself has been demolished and "Greenwich Square" erected on it in the last decade. The Brook Hospital closed in 1995 and has subsequently been developed for housing, including a conversion of the water tower! There was also a very large ambulance station alongside the Brook hospital - I expect quite a few of the ambulances which attended Hither Green came from there, and it still exists.
The Royal Herbert Hospital closed when the new Queen Elizabeth II military hospital opened nearby; it was subsequently converted into apartments. The Military Hospital is now a District General Hospital.
As you say, the War Memorial Hospital had significantly reduced its facilities by the 1970s. I left the area for St Albans in 1977 but it still remains marked as a hospital on maps, specialising in mental health problems and physiotherapy, I am told.
The third hospital might have been at Falconwood, a large house on the Welling side of Shooters Hill, perhaps? Can't find out any information from my several books on Woolwich, and it was demolished some while ago.
A bit off the Watling Street/Dover Road as it crossed Shooters Hill was Shrewsbury House, used for a considerable while as a Children's Convalescent Home.

 

[fergusjbend]

I was a consultant psychiatrist based at Hither Green Hospital in the late 1980's. The hospital was a typical Victorian infirmary which in later years had been turned over to the care of infectious diseases (particularly tuberculosis). When Bexley and Cane Hill Hospitals began to wind down Hither Green became the psychiatric unit for the London Borough of Lewisham. Later, modern facilities were built at Lewisham Hospital. It is unlikely that Hither Green would have received significant numbers of casualties from the rail crash, as it was poorly staffed and equipped for emergency cases.

 

[Busaholic]

Thank you to the two gentlemen above.
Thinking about Hither Green Hospital, what could well have happened is that any staff on duty that night would have heard about the crash within a short time (possibly even have heard it when it occurred, but I think that's doubtful, especially on Fireworks Night when there were many more private displays than nowadays) and some may have travelled the short distance offering assistance. I think, on arrival, they would have quickly realised the scope of the tragedy, although some may have stayed on doing what they could in the circumstances.

John, interested to hear you were born in the War Memorial and that the hospital may be extant. I was born at home in Westmount Road, just off the Well Hall Road.

One last point from me on this subject, in reply to Cowley, it was really only in retrospect that I realised I had seen the crashed train a minute or two prior to the accident, but I didn't particularly notice it or make eye contact with any passengers, which would have made it more hard for me to bear later: it does just make you think how fragile life is. Up to then I had also considered 23 to be my lucky number, being born on the 23rd and living at no. 23 for most of my life up to then, but counting 23 ambulances lined up ready to receive casualties rather changed my perspective on that too.

 

[Bromley boy]

I would also like to express thanks to all of the above contributors - and to any more who may comment in future!

This thread, started in rememberance of the tragedy, has now become a treasure trove of first hand experiences of what happened that night. A fascinating personal insight that could never be gained from reading any official or media report into the disaster.

 

[Busaholic]

I would also like to express thanks to all of the above contributors - and to any more who may comment in future!

This thread, started in rememberance of the tragedy, has now become a treasure trove of first hand experiences of what happened that night. A fascinating personal insight that could never be gained from reading any official or media report into the disaster.

I do have one bus story related to the night, as one bus unintentionally escaped the diversions/curtailments and actually tried to reach Hither Green Station, but I'll only bother telling it if anyone requests it, as it's so peripheral.

 

[neilmc]

I remember seeing derelict North British type 2 diesel electric D6122 at Barry in 1969 and had read that it had been at Hither Green for a "rerailing exercise" late in 1967, and I had assumed this was something to do with the Hither Green accident and that a spare loco had been commandeered all the way from Scotland to help clear the wreckage. I have recently read that the loco was in fact withdrawn and arrived at Hither Green in the October for an exercise and that this was not related to the accident. But a bizarre coincidence.

 

[Bromley boy]

I do have one bus story related to the night, as one bus unintentionally escaped the diversions/curtailments and actually tried to reach Hither Green Station, but I'll only bother telling it if anyone requests it, as it's so peripheral.

Fill your boots!

 

[BTP69E]

Busaholic.
Thank you for your record of experie nces at the Hither Green disaster. Like you I find November the 5th a difficult time. I may well have seen you that night as our police car drove up the ramp some time after 10pm as I arrived to relieve colleauges who had been sent there from Liverpool Street Station on the Eastern Region from our late turn shift (2pm to 10pm), I was on the incoming night shift as Police Constable 69E of the British Transport Police. - I am new to posting on any forum and am still trying to find my way around. So please be patient and I will give more of my recollections of that night and the following day when I spent more than 18 hours on duty before returning to my home ststion.
Tom Meeneghan.

 

[Cowley]

Busaholic.
Thank you for your record of experie nces at the Hither Green disaster. Like you I find November the 5th a difficult time. I may well have seen you that night as our police car drove up the ramp some time after 10pm as I arrived to relieve colleauges who had been sent there from Liverpool Street Station on the Eastern Region from our late turn shift (2pm to 10pm), I was on the incoming night shift as Police Constable 69E of the British Transport Police. - I am new to posting on any forum and am still trying to find my way around. So please be patient and I will give more of my recollections of that night and the following day when I spent more than 18 hours on duty before returning to my home ststion.
Tom Meeneghan.

Welcome to the forum Tom.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

This is all fascinating stuff.

The accident report can only tell the story of what happened and why. Here, we are seeing the human stories and the history behind the accident which tells a completely different outlook on what happened that day. Please keep the anecdotes coming.

 

[BTP69E]

Welcome to the forum Tom.

Welcome to the forum Tom.

Welcome to the forum Tom.

Cowley,
Thank you for your welcome. I am not a regular computer user, mainly emails. Only log on in the evening. I did not speak about my involvement in this event for 38 years until one night in bed with my wife when we were having a heart to heart about our past lives and she triggered it when we spoke about things that had happened before we met. - I cried and cried - I now know I was suffering from PTSD. I found a self help group on line run by MIND. Eventually it was removed through lack of funding. Will post more when mind is clearer.