Holborn and the Aldwych Branch

[norbitonflyer]

The BBC created a realistic station and tunnel set for the 1968 Doctor Who story, The Web of Fear, so with modern CGI and a bigger budget fil producers could easily create something bespoke if they don't need a "real" train running through it

So realistic that London Transport complained to the BBC that they had been trespassing!

 

[Towers]

It can easily be taken by road from the Museum compound, after parts have been removed. February/March is likely.

Such a shame. I hope they'll at least sell off some flame cuts - genuine items of TV/film memorabilia, as well as Tube artefacts!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Maybe the branch should be extended; ......................... and south to Waterloo

At Waterloo a non-passenger link with the Waterloo & City should be included, for stock transfers. Both W&C and the extended Aldwych branch could use shorter versions of the same trains

Having spent two-thirds of the mornings of my working life commuting through Waterloo to the Holborn area, I've had plenty of time to daydream whilst queuing for the 501/521 bus (before multi-door entry was introduced with the Bendybuses the queues used to stretch onto the main concourse of the station). My favourite daydream was designing the Waterloo extension. Much simpler than that proposed in the 1960s,which had new platforms below the Northern/Bakerloo ones, mine made more efficient use of the W&C platforms.
The W&C approaches waterloo from the north east, along Stamford Street, and passes under the IMAX roundabout in a right-angled curve to arrive facing SE, athwart the main line platforms above.
Adding a trailing crossover on the approach to Waterloo would allow W&C trains to reverse in the current arrivals platform, allowing them to return to Bank without shunting through the depot. (This would improve turnround time and possibly save one unit).
The current departures platform could then have been used for an extension of the Aldwych branch, with a tunnel branching off straight on where the existing W&C line turns NE towards Bank.
By re-purposing the existing platforms, the only new infrastructure required would be the new running tunnels and the trailing crossover.
The Holborn/Waterloo route could have been single track, but twin tunnels exist on the existing section of the route and potential demand suggests at least a passing place at Aldwych would have been needed to allow two train operation, and probably double track throughout except at the termini to allow an operation similar to the W&C.
Throughput would be improved if Aldwych station itself did not re-open. It would in any case be problematic - given the volume of end-to-end traffic - no-one would be able to board at Aldwych! (Similar considerations apply to Blackfriars calls on the W&C, desirable as that would have been for me when my place of work moved to Blackfriars later in my career!)
The connection between the former departures platform (now the platform for Holborn) and the line to Bank could be retained to allow stock transfers between the W&C and the rest of the Tube network without shunting through the depot (removing the need for a huge crane and associated road closures every time stock needs to go in or out).
A common fleet for the two shuttles would be possible - although the existing depot would not be large enough for this larger fleet, some could be stabled at the north end of the Piccadilly line. Indeed, Waterloo depot might be dispensed with altogether, allowing extension of the platforms at Waterloo (although this would also require extensions at Bank (possibly by shortening the Travelator?).

(I really did spend a lot of time in that queue - then I discovered it was just as quick to walk (and £1000pa cheaper, since I could exchange my Travelcard for a pointy-to-point season), and later still the "Boris Bike" scheme reduced the trip from 30minutes to less than ten)

 

[Busaholic]

Having spent two-thirds of the mornings of my working life commuting through Waterloo to the Holborn area, I've had plenty of time to daydream whilst queuing for the 501/521 bus (before multi-door entry was introduced with the Bendybuses the queues used to stretch onto the main concourse of the station). My favourite daydream was designing the Waterloo extension. Much simpler than that proposed in the 1960s,which had new platforms below the Northern/Bakerloo ones, mine made more efficient use of the W&C platforms.
The W&C approaches waterloo from the north east, along Stamford Street, and passes under the IMAX roundabout in a right-angled curve to arrive facing SE, athwart the main line platforms above.
Adding a trailing crossover on the approach to Waterloo would allow W&C trains to reverse in the current arrivals platform, allowing them to return to Bank without shunting through the depot. (This would improve turnround time and possibly save one unit).
The current departures platform could then have been used for an extension of the Aldwych branch, with a tunnel branching off straight on where the existing W&C line turns NE towards Bank.
By re-purposing the existing platforms, the only new infrastructure required would be the new running tunnels and the trailing crossover.
The Holborn/Waterloo route could have been single track, but twin tunnels exist on the existing section of the route and potential demand suggests at least a passing place at Aldwych would have been needed to allow two train operation, and probably double track throughout except at the termini to allow an operation similar to the W&C.
Throughput would be improved if Aldwych station itself did not re-open. It would in any case be problematic - given the volume of end-to-end traffic - no-one would be able to board at Aldwych! (Similar considerations apply to Blackfriars calls on the W&C, desirable as that would have been for me when my place of work moved to Blackfriars later in my career!)
The connection between the former departures platform (now the platform for Holborn) and the line to Bank could be retained to allow stock transfers between the W&C and the rest of the Tube network without shunting through the depot (removing the need for a huge crane and associated road closures every time stock needs to go in or out).
A common fleet for the two shuttles would be possible - although the existing depot would not be large enough for this larger fleet, some could be stabled at the north end of the Piccadilly line. Indeed, Waterloo depot might be dispensed with altogether, allowing extension of the platforms at Waterloo (although this would also require extensions at Bank (possibly by shortening the Travelator?).

(I really did spend a lot of time in that queue - then I discovered it was just as quick to walk (and £1000pa cheaper, since I could exchange my Travelcard for a pointy-to-point season), and later still the "Boris Bike" scheme reduced the trip from 30minutes to less than ten)

I used to see those bus queues at one time and was always thankful I didn't have to join them! As you say, the bendies made all the difference, at Waterloo in particular.

I think your below ground plans have much merit: in fact, the best I've ever read, or even discussed with others, way back, Then the W&C was most definitely BR and outside the remit of anyone at London Transport to 'interfere' with, or even suggest altering anything.

 

[kwrail]

Slightly off the original topic, but there have been suggestions in the past of an intermediate station on the W&C at Blackfriars, rather than Aldwych. This would enable connections to Thameslink and the District/Circle line. Any ideas why this wasn't done or what the problems with it might have been?

 

[swt_passenger]

Slightly off the original topic, but there have been suggestions in the past of an intermediate station on the W&C at Blackfriars, rather than Aldwych. This would enable connections to Thameslink and the District/Circle line. Any ideas why this wasn't done or what the problems with it might have been?

No suitable straight or level part of the route to add a station, and no capacity on the trains that are already jammed full in the peak flow direction.

 

[Grumbler]

Slightly off the original topic, but there have been suggestions in the past of an intermediate station on the W&C at Blackfriars, rather than Aldwych. This would enable connections to Thameslink and the District/Circle line. Any ideas why this wasn't done or what the problems with it might have been?

Bank can be reached via the District/Circle.
Waterloo can be reached by changing at London Bridge or Elephant instead.
W&C would be slower as a result.

 

[Mojo]

Did I see the Aldwych unit at Ruislip depot earlier in the week? It was dark but I got a glimpse of a silver unit with one car half painted black, it was stabled next to the defective Rail adhesion train.

 

[Dstock7080]

Did I see the Aldwych unit at Ruislip depot earlier in the week? It was dark but I got a glimpse of a silver unit with one car half painted black, it was stabled next to the defective Rail adhesion train.

yes, moved on Thursday 16 December.

 

[Ladder23]

yes, moved on Thursday 16 December.

Any idea if this is moving again soon?

 

[Dstock7080]

Any idea if this is moving again soon?

February/March by road

 

[Ashley Hill]

Any photos of it in daylight?

 

[Snow1964]

Has been announced that tours of the Kingsway tunnels at Holborn will be opened for booking next week. These are the former tram tunnels that ran from Southampton row, past Holborn station and exited under Waterloo bridge where a triangular junction with embankment tram routes used to exist.

Tours of the Kingsway tram tunnel announced

Rarely opened to the public since it closed in 1952, there will be tours of the Kingsway tram subway in Holborn for a couple of months this summer.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

 

[Ashley Hill]

Any news of the Aldwych unit. Is it still at Ruislip or has it been moved,scrapped or preserved?

 

[Mojo]

Any news of the Aldwych unit. Is it still at Ruislip or has it been moved,scrapped or preserved?

Still in Ruislip depot, and visible from passing Central line and Chiltern Railways trains, but with many of the bodyside panels missing.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Still in Ruislip depot, and visible from passing Central line and Chiltern Railways trains, but with many of the bodyside panels missing.

Thanks

 

[Lewlew]

Still in Ruislip depot, and visible from passing Central line and Chiltern Railways trains, but with many of the bodyside panels missing.

These have appeared at Stonebridge Park depot

 

[AlbertBeale]

These have appeared at Stonebridge Park depot

How would stock get from Ruislip to Stonebridge Park? I can't see an obvious route to the Bakerloo - is it something convoluted like Piccadilly to Hammersmith, District to Gunnersbury, Overground to Willesden Junction, and on to the Euston line and via Queens Park? Or Met to the Jubilee, reversing somewhere or other, and then crossing to the Bakerloo by shunting backwards and forwards via the Baker Street connection? Though no doubt some options are problematic except well clear of operating hours because of different signalling systems.

 

[Lewlew]

How would stock get from Ruislip to Stonebridge Park? I can't see an obvious route to the Bakerloo - is it something convoluted like Piccadilly to Hammersmith, District to Gunnersbury, Overground to Willesden Junction, and on to the Euston line and via Queens Park? Or Met to the Jubilee, reversing somewhere or other, and then crossing to the Bakerloo by shunting backwards and forwards via the Baker Street connection? Though no doubt some options are problematic except well clear of operating hours because of different signalling systems.

The parts from the Aldwych unit presumably came by road.

But if moving a train then it can go out via the Met then Jubilee to Baker Street on to the Bakerloo to Piccadilly or Lambeth North to go back north to Stonebridge.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The parts from the Aldwych unit presumably came by road.

But if moving a train then it can go out via the Met then Jubilee to Baker Street on to the Bakerloo to Piccadilly or Lambeth North to go back north to Stonebridge.

Ah yes - of course - from Jubilee to Bakerloo southbound at Baker Street doesn't require going backwards and forwards - just straight on and then one reversal on the Bakerloo.

 

[Lucan]

via the Met then Jubilee to Baker Street

The connection from the Met to the Jubilee southbound being at Neasden.

 

[Dstock7080]

How would stock get from Ruislip to Stonebridge Park? I can't see an obvious route to the Bakerloo - is it something convoluted like Piccadilly to Hammersmith, District to Gunnersbury, Overground to Willesden Junction, and on to the Euston line and via Queens Park?

Unfortunately no useful connection at Hammersmith and '72 Stock couldn't operate on its own on the North London from Gunnersbury.

 

[Mothball]

Some photos appeared on "London Underground and Overground Enthusiasts" Facebook page a week ago showing unit heavily stripped, most bodyside panels removed and both cabs (bar the control desk) completely removed from the chassis.

While of course LU is a business that needs the spares to maintain its fleet, and this unit has been never preserved, its still somewhat heartbreaking to see stock that could have been a fantastic preserved asset meet its end having survived so long.

 

[Lucan]

How would stock get from Ruislip to Stonebridge Park? I can't see an obvious route to the Bakerloo - is it something convoluted like Piccadilly to Hammersmith, District to Gunnersbury, Overground to Willesden Junction

AFAIK, with the exception of the W&C, you can drive from every part of the LU to every other part on LU's own tracks, or on 4th rail electrified tracks shared in normal service. Gauge permitting of course, but there is nothing that surface gauge stock might need to reach that it cannot, Ruislip Depot or Acton Works for examples.

'72 Stock couldn't operate on its own on the North London from Gunnersbury.

No, but battery locos could haul it, like the moves for maintenance that used to take place over the Highgate - Crouch End - Finchley Park line (now closed).

 

[Towers]

Some photos appeared on "London Underground and Overground Enthusiasts" Facebook page a week ago showing unit heavily stripped, most bodyside panels removed and both cabs (bar the control desk) completely removed from the chassis.

While of course LU is a business that needs the spares to maintain its fleet, and this unit has been never preserved, its still somewhat heartbreaking to see stock that could have been a fantastic preserved asset meet its end having survived so long.

Completely agree. Particularly in view of its later career; it must be the most 'famous' tube train by a very long way and doubtless very many of us will have seen it feature in something over the years. A sad end indeed

Some photos appeared on "London Underground and Overground Enthusiasts" Facebook page a week ago showing unit heavily stripped, most bodyside panels removed and both cabs (bar the control desk) completely removed from the chassis.

While of course LU is a business that needs the spares to maintain its fleet, and this unit has been never preserved, its still somewhat heartbreaking to see stock that could have been a fantastic preserved asset meet its end having survived so long.

Any public availability of these or similar pics?

 

[Lewlew]

Any public availability of these or similar pics?

@juststonebridgeparktings on Instagram: "An Aldwych horror... #aldwych #trains #london"

32 likes, 4 comments - juststonebridgeparktings on February 27, 2022: "An Aldwych horror... #aldwych #trains #london".

www.instagram.com

 

[Dstock7080]

Ruislip

 

[AlbertBeale]

Unfortunately no useful connection at Hammersmith and '72 Stock couldn't operate on its own on the North London from Gunnersbury.

Ah - right - so therefore presumably North Ealing, Acton Town, or Barons Court for remaining Picc-District connectivity.

 

[Towers]

Thanks both for the above.

Ruislip

That really is sad! It's just metal etc etc, but what a history. A shame that such little effort can be found for recognising these fascinating little bits of the past these days. Sigh!

 

[Dstock7080]

Ah - right - so therefore presumably North Ealing, Acton Town, or Barons Court for remaining Picc-District connectivity.

North Ealing and (soon to be removed) westbound PICC to District only at Hammersmith. Nothing at Barons Court now.