Holding trains

[trainophile]

Waiting at Chester for the departure of the 1420 to Maesteg. Just been told the reason for the delay is waiting for passengers on the Virgin service that has just arrived. Now 6 late and leaving.

When I tweeted ATW a while ago asking them if they could hold a train at Newport for one minute due to late inbound GWR, I was told sorry, if it’s not their late train they can’t do it.

Different policy under the new franchise then? Are there any official rules about whether trains are held or not?

 

[tiptoptaff]

Each TOC has it's own rules for holding connections. GWR will not if there is another one within an hour. So tend not to hold for ATW services unless they're last services

 

[trainophile]

Sorry I may have confused things. It was the GWR that was late arriving (actually I can’t really remember, it may have been a XC), and it was the ATW that I begged them to hold for just long enough to cross the platform, but they wouldn’t.

Now that ATW is TfW it seems they have discovered a bit more flexibility.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Sorry I may have confused things. It was the GWR that was late arriving (actually I can’t really remember, it may have been a XC), and it was the ATW that I begged them to hold for just long enough to cross the platform, but they wouldn’t.

Now that ATW is TfW it seems they have discovered a bit more flexibility.

It's exactly the same staff and policies - perception is a wonderful thing. New operator does things differently - they don't, you just think they do.

 

[Mag_seven]

As has been stated, different TOCs will have different connection policies which will vary by location, frequency of connecting service etc.

 

[AlterEgo]

Waiting at Chester for the departure of the 1420 to Maesteg. Just been told the reason for the delay is waiting for passengers on the Virgin service that has just arrived. Now 6 late and leaving.

When I tweeted ATW a while ago asking them if they could hold a train at Newport for one minute due to late inbound GWR, I was told sorry, if it’s not their late train they can’t do it.

Different policy under the new franchise then? Are there any official rules about whether trains are held or not?

Likely the Maesteg train has some padding time and is very low risk for failing PPM, causing delay minutes to other TOCs or fouling other passenger connections.

 

[trainophile]

Likely the Maesteg train has some padding time and is very low risk for failing PPM or fouling other passenger connections.

Well we just left Shrewsbury 8 late, and I will miss my bus at Hereford as there’s only six minutes when everything is on time. (Bus stop just outside the station but I have to go over the bridge to get out.)

 

[DarloRich]

a regular and frustrating occurrence on the Marston Vale

 

[swt_passenger]

Even within ATW or now TfW it isn’t necessary for local policy on both North and South Wales routes to be identical.

Staff at Newport and Chester won’t necessarily be on the same page...

 

[Bletchleyite]

a regular and frustrating occurrence on the Marston Vale

As in you don't support it being held? It seems a very sensible train to hold given that people connecting *off* it are unlikely to be seriously inconvenienced.

 

[DarloRich]

As in you don't support it being held? It seems a very sensible train to hold given that people connecting *off* it are unlikely to be seriously inconvenienced.

As in I wish they would hold the train more often.

 

[pt_mad]

Sorry I may have confused things. It was the GWR that was late arriving (actually I can’t really remember, it may have been a XC), and it was the ATW that I begged them to hold for just long enough to cross the platform, but they wouldn’t.

Now that ATW is TfW it seems they have discovered a bit more flexibility.

Generally station staff or conductors can hold a service for one minute without being questioned if they deem necessary. Two minutes generally they won't be questioned, unless this leads to further delay later, such as train loses its path, then they will receive a phone call from Network Rail to explain.

3 minutes or more hold is officially reportable and Network Rail will phone the responsible station within minutes asking what caused the delay. If station staff or conductors held it off their own back it will be recorded as Unauthorised Connection, and will be forwarded on to the appropriate manager where it may be investigated further. This option is very undesirable to staff and is far best avoided as you may be in trouble.

Where 3 minutes or more hold is needed then station staff or conductors will nearly always contact the train operator control and ask for authority. Either authority will be given such as yes you have a four minutes hold maximum, or, it will be a sorry but no.

 

[trainophile]

Generally station staff or conductors can hold a service for one minute without being questioned if they deem necessary. Two minutes generally they won't be questioned, unless this leads to further delay later, such as train loses its path, then they will receive a phone call from Network Rail to explain.

3 minutes or more hold is officially reportable and Network Rail will phone the responsible station within minutes asking what caused the delay. If station staff or conductors held it off their own back it will be recorded as Unauthorised Connection, and will be forwarded on to the appropriate manager where it may be investigated further. This option is very undesirable to staff and is far best avoided as you may be in trouble.

Where 3 minutes or more hold is needed then station staff or conductors will nearly always contact the train operator control and ask for authority. Either authority will be given such as yes you have a four minutes hold maximum, or, it will be a sorry but no.

That’s really enlightening. I presume the conversation was had at Chester today then.

(I didn’t miss my bus as that was 20 minutes late too!)

 

[pt_mad]

That’s really enlightening. I presume the conversation was had at Chester today then.

(I didn’t miss my bus as that was 20 minutes late too!)

It's also worth mentioning that TOC policies and passenger charters play a part. If there is another service an hour later, it is less likely to be held. If its a different TOC it could be less likely too. If road transport has to be provided if there's no alternative service within say 75 mins then the service may be held to cut down the need for that.

Also staff on the front line will have to make a judgement call which can be hard. Because, if you know you have a max 2 mins, then you are going to have to press the door close button at say no later than 1 minute 40 seconds after booked departure time, otherwise you could end up booking 3 minutes late. And then, it is reportable and accountable. And once you hold, if crowds are running towards your doors, you can't viably close them if it's a safety issue, and you may up regretting an unofficial hold which may end up going over 2 mins.

 

[route:oxford]

(I didn’t miss my bus as that was 20 minutes late too!)

Just to clarify, did you phone the bus company and request that the bus wait, or did you only find out that it was going to be late when you got to the bus halt?

 

[trainophile]

Just to clarify, did you phone the bus company and request that the bus wait, or did you only find out that it was going to be late when you got to the bus halt?

Haha. Actually that one is usually late, so I wasn't surprised to see about 100 students milling around the stop waiting for it. Point taken though.

 

[Esker-pades]

Here are some factors which appear* to be considered.
*Through observation and experience when making/seeing requests to hold connections.

The existence of a guard. If there isn't a guard, it is much more difficult for people to make contact with the operator to hold connections.It is very rare in former Network SouthEast land for connections to be held.
Also, it varies by guard. Some are more proactive than others when enquiring if people are making common connections, for example.

Last connections of the day. It is more common to hold those than others. TOCs would rather slightly delay a train than pay the bill for a hotel/taxi for a long distance. For example, I've often successfully requested that either the 20:15 from Inverness to Glasgow or the connection from that service at either Perth or Stirling to Edinburgh is held (they're the last trains of the night) because of late Far North running. I've yet to had the pleasure of being chucked on the sleeper (which I gather is the last resort if there is a significant delay).

Number of passengers. If there is a significant number of people making the connection, the service is more likely to be held.

Same TOC transfer. TOCs will be more willing to delay their services for their own passengers than they are for another TOC's.

Operational reasons. What effect will the delay have on other services? How big will that effect be?

Length of time until the next connection.

The TOC itself. Some TOCs appear to be much more willing to hold services than others.


It's worth noting that it is a massive lottery. Since guaranteed connections were abolished, there has never been a single we-will-hold-your-connection-if... rule.

 

[PHILIPE]

TFW work on the basis that any request to hold should come from the late train, so if a passenger requests TFW (by Tweet) for a hold, they are told to contact the guard on their late train and request a hold through that channel, The request is considered and factors taken into account are whether the hold will block the platform causing delay to another train or if the hold would impact on the delayed train or any other services further down the line. There is normally relaxation if it he last train of the day. Circumstance can vary from striation to station depending on the conditions there, i.e. Swansea where West Wales services connect out of GWR London services. To the furthermost locations the service is only 2 hourly but with such an infrequent service occupying the line there is no problem holding due to the infrequency so there shouldn't any impact with generous turn round times at the destinations.
Do you delay the few for the majority ?

 

[Llanigraham]

Philipe,
I hope they've decided to sort out what happens at Shrewsbury. Several times I've been on an evening train up from Cardiff to catch the Cambrian, and because we have been a couple of minutes late we've gone passed Sutton Bridge to see the down Cambrian waiting for us to clear the junction!
On one occasion I ended up in a taxi back to Caersws, but normally it's an hour's wait and fill in the delay form.

 

[trainophile]

Interesting comments Philipe. Makes a lot of sense. In my previous example I was tracking both the late train I was on, and the one I wished to connect onto, and the arrival and departure of both was expected to be one minute apart, but on platforms on opposite sides of the bridge. That's why I thought if only they could not shut the doors for even half a minute, fit people without luggage could have sprinted over. In the event I did manage to catch it by the skin of my teeth, although many people would not have made it. The view was probably that it was only half an hour until the next one.

 

[pt_mad]

Interesting comments Philipe. Makes a lot of sense. In my previous example I was tracking both the late train I was on, and the one I wished to connect onto, and the arrival and departure of both was expected to be one minute apart, but on platforms on opposite sides of the bridge. That's why I thought if only they could not shut the doors for even half a minute, fit people without luggage could have sprinted over. In the event I did manage to catch it by the skin of my teeth, although many people would not have made it. The view was probably that it was only half an hour until the next one.

Aye. Bear in mind the station or it's staff cant encourage passengers to run across the station. And if they hold, it will probably have to be hold for everyone rather than just joggers, because one the doors are obstructed with people rushing and boarding, it will be hard to close them safely until everyone has joined.
If the connection is announced, it would have to be held for more than a minute, as the slowest people with luggage will expect the connection to be made.

 

[WelshBluebird]

TFW work on the basis that any request to hold should come from the late train, so if a passenger requests TFW (by Tweet) for a hold, they are told to contact the guard on their late train and request a hold through that channel

Is that new since it changed from ATW to TFW then?
Because I have certainly successfully requested a connection to be held via Twitter when it was ATW.
The problem I have with having to have the request come from the guard is that quite often the guard isn't available to the passenger (e.g. a very busy overcrowded service, or a doubled up pacer with no gangway doors, or even just a guard who locks themselves in the back cab).

 

[PHILIPE]

Is that new since it changed from ATW to TFW then?
Because I have certainly successfully requested a connection to be held via Twitter when it was ATW.
The problem I have with having to have the request come from the guard is that quite often the guard isn't available to the passenger (e.g. a very busy overcrowded service, or a doubled up pacer with no gangway doors, or even just a guard who locks themselves in the back cab).

No change. You've only got to read Twitter Posts to see such requests and the advice given to passengers regarding speaking to the guard. However TFW will deal with it if the train is so full and the delayed passenger is unable to reach the guard.

 

[sw1ller]

It’s worth noting that the signal on P2 at Chester can’t be cleared until the train on P3b has come to a complete stop, no matter the direction it’s traveling. So you can be held for a late running service for quite some time due to the signalling constraints. This takes some of the responsibility from station staff at Chester (6 minutes is quite long to be fair so there was probably a conversation had to arrange it)

It’s also very easy to make 6 minutes back between Chester and Shrewsbury so this was probably taken into account. However, there are 3 very VERY slippy stations to stop at so at this time of year, those 6 minutes are much more difficult to claw back.