Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

Watershed

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Has any consideration ever been given to re-quadrifying between Dore and Sheffield? This would effectively make the Hope Valley line a separate line right into Sheffield.
The only service that would benefit would be the Hope Valley stopper, which runs no more than once an hour. Hardly worth the expense of building 4 extra miles of double track to avoid one conflict an hour at Dore Station Jn. You could probably grade separate all three sides of the Dore triangle for the same amount.
 
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unlevel42

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Even with that increase there was no depaearlrture between 07.23 and 09.39. What increase was there in the other direction? What service was laid on for office workers in Sheffield whose day started at 09.00?
Hope Valley trains arrived at Sheffield station at 7.19 and 8.22 in June 1987

Anybody using the Hope Valley stations would be the heros of the commuter world, especially office workers.

Sheffield station is not central and an uphill walk of 1-2km to all offices, main hospitals the University(part of Polytechnic/Hallam on the doorstep), Council, Midland Bank, Manpower Services, Courts, legal, tax, retail etc.
None of the Hope Valley stations are 'convenient', bus routes are.
Nearly all the white collar jobs were/are in the centre and western suburbs, and mostly free from congestion for Derbyshire traffic.
Parking the car in the suburbs and walking downhill to work and very frequent bus back is common.
There is no tradition of commuter rail services in Sheffield compared with other cities
Urban stations were on valley floors-people, lived on the hills were Tram/Bus/Supertram have always offered a far better service and there was massive loyalty.
South Yorkshire worked with the Eastern region of BR and were not interested in working the Midland region. They did support weekend and Bank Holiday travel.
 

Killingworth

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The tram route out to Beauchief was one of the few in Sheffield to have significant sections of reserved track. Restoring that and extending to Dore would provide a far better option for commuters into Sheffield than trying to provide extra trains on a very busy section of line.
That's not quite as easy as it may sound, not least because there was a lot less traffic when the trams were withdrawn in 1960. See old film that starts by highlighting the part alongside Millhouses Park.

The biggest problem with trams isn't the bits that can operate on a dual carriageway, be they reserved track or not, but in this case the far more congested Abbeydale Road out of Sheffield to the former Millhouses terminus. Trams and free flowing traffic would be challenging and parking lost. Undertaking trams today would not be allowed! Even in the late 1970s traffic flowed two abreast into the city centre at rush hours. Today wider cars and bus lanes have made it worse.

From there along Abbeydale Road South alongside Millhouses Park would take tram tracks relatively easily (but would lose a lot of parking for the park if reserved or set into the road) as far as Beauchief crossroads. From the crossroads land alongside the road has been earmarked for dual carriageway or tram tracks as far as the railway bridge where it becomes Baslow Road, although it would be unpopular as many mature trees would have to be removed to do it. From the railway bridge was dualled almost 60 years ago out towards Totley and that would relatively easily take tram tracks.

Those who suggest running on a reserved tram tack alongside the railway out to Millhouses or Beauchief need to consider how the trams could get from the railway alignment onto the road. Detailed maps and on the ground observation will show that.

All very simple as a thought, but incredibly expensive and disruptive to complete and possibly not too helpful to meet the needs that will be seen in the 2030s and beyond.

But I'm now well off the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme topic. That just stretches to limited resignalling down the Sheaf Valley to make better use of the Heeley up loop.
 

unlevel42

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That's not quite as easy as it may sound, not least because there was a lot less traffic when the trams were withdrawn in 1960. See old film that starts by highlighting the part alongside Millhouses Park.

The biggest problem with trams isn't the bits that can operate on a dual carriageway, be they reserved track or not, but in this case the far more congested Abbeydale Road out of Sheffield to the former Millhouses terminus. Trams and free flowing traffic would be challenging and parking lost. Undertaking trams today would not be allowed! Even in the late 1970s traffic flowed two abreast into the city centre at rush hours. Today wider cars and bus lanes have made it worse.

From there along Abbeydale Road South alongside Millhouses Park would take tram tracks relatively easily (but would lose a lot of parking for the park if reserved or set into the road) as far as Beauchief crossroads. From the crossroads land alongside the road has been earmarked for dual carriageway or tram tracks as far as the railway bridge where it becomes Baslow Road, although it would be unpopular as many mature trees would have to be removed to do it. From the railway bridge was dualled almost 60 years ago out towards Totley and that would relatively easily take tram tracks.

Those who suggest running on a reserved tram tack alongside the railway out to Millhouses or Beauchief need to consider how the trams could get from the railway alignment onto the road. Detailed maps and on the ground observation will show that.

All very simple as a thought, but incredibly expensive and disruptive to complete and possibly not too helpful to meet the needs that will be seen in the 2030s and beyond.

But I'm now well off the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme topic. That just stretches to limited resignalling down the Sheaf Valley to make better use of the Heeley up loop.
The biggest problem with the railway between Dore and Sheffield is that it does not pass through the main centres of population and it dumps its passengers well away from where they want to be.
 

Killingworth

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Hope Valley trains arrived at Sheffield station at 7.19 and 8.22 in June 1987

Anybody using the Hope Valley stations would be the heros of the commuter world, especially office workers.

Sheffield station is not central and an uphill walk of 1-2km to all offices, main hospitals the University(part of Polytechnic/Hallam on the doorstep), Council, Midland Bank, Manpower Services, Courts, legal, tax, retail etc.
None of the Hope Valley stations are 'convenient', bus routes are.
Nearly all the white collar jobs were/are in the centre and western suburbs, and mostly free from congestion for Derbyshire traffic.
Parking the car in the suburbs and walking downhill to work and very frequent bus back is common.
There is no tradition of commuter rail services in Sheffield compared with other cities
Urban stations were on valley floors-people, lived on the hills were Tram/Bus/Supertram have always offered a far better service and there was massive loyalty.
South Yorkshire worked with the Eastern region of BR and were not interested in working the Midland region. They did support weekend and Bank Holiday travel.
There were a lot more commuters into Sheffield from Dore pre-WW2 and could be again if there was a decent service. See pictures in post 668 for demand in 1979 when buses weren't available.

Would you want to rely on an infrequent train out of Sheffield when the station is consistently in the worst 100 in the country for punctuality? It's quite a surprise that so many do, but services have improved over the last few years.

Weekday trains out of Sheffield to Dore currently run at 5.09, 6.09, 6.18, 7.07, 7.10, 7.32, 8.08, 8.32, 9.14, 10.14, (11.14 temporarily suspended) 12.14, (a possible 13.14 is blocked by unused freight paths) 14.14, 15.45 (freight conflict blocks a 15.14 departure), 16.14, 17.14, 18.14, 19.14, 20.14, then blocked by freight paths for 153 minutes until 22.47, 23.27.

Earlier trains are clearly much better with 2 to 3 an hour to serve Manchester bound commuters! Note the 2 hour gap around 13.14, a very useful time to leave the city after a morning at work or shopping. Also a good time to leave Dore for an afternoon in Manchester - not! Note also the gap between 20.14 and 22.47, just the time those returning to Sheffield after a long distance day away might want a connection to Dore. Forget it and get a taxi!

Trains from Dore into Sheffield are better in number, but not so good for commuters into the nearby city. Note the very heavy bias in favour of Manchester, from where Northern stopping services operate; 6.50, 7.57, 8.05, 8.24, 8.28, (then 90 minutes) 9.58, (10.58 temporarily suspended), 11.58, 12.58, 13.58, 14.58, 15.58, 16.58, 17.31, 17.58, 18.03, 18.36, 18.58, 19.03, 19.58, 20.03, 20.49, 21.03, 21.58, 22.03, 22.46, 23.28.

It takes 6-8 minutes to travel between Dore and Sheffield by smooth train. It may take 30 minutes or more by a jerking bus. A car is obviously better because it starts from home when you want to start and goes nearer where you want to go, but it won't be much quicker than the bus through the traffic!

Until March passenger numbers at Dore were rising at 10% pa. They were also increasing at all the Hope Valley stations and would have continued to grow even more now 195s have replaced Pacers. Here's the graph for the last 23 years to 2019-20.

Passenger numbers graph to 2020.png
Regarding tradition of rail commuting from Dore? No figures are to hand prior to modern times except this extract from the station records held at the NRM at York. In those days the population within easy walking distance of the station was 1/10th of what it is today. (Construction of the quadrupled tracks and two extra platforms at all Sheaf Valley stations around 1900 may partially account for the upturn at that time.)

Dore & Totley receipts & exp. 1896-1907.jpg
 

fishwomp

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There has been, but with developments at the side of the railway, like the big Tesco on Abbeydale Road, the max they could do throughout is tripled IIRC.
It still looks pretty clear all the way, there appears to be space even at the Tesco. If not, the supermarkets have generally been looking to shrink their shops in the last 3 years or so.. those buildings go up pretty quick, it would not be much cost in the grand scheme of things to move a wall inwards.

The current approach to Sheffield from the south is a mess, so much time spent waiting outside the station or crawling in..
From the north is even worse..
 

_toommm_

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It still looks pretty clear all the way, there appears to be space even at the Tesco. If not, the supermarkets have generally been looking to shrink their shops in the last 3 years or so.. those buildings go up pretty quick, it would not be much cost in the grand scheme of things to move a wall inwards.

The current approach to Sheffield from the south is a mess, so much time spent waiting outside the station or crawling in..
From the north is even worse..

The signal is approach controlled coming from Meadowhall side IIRC, so you'll always be stepped down to a red there until you're crawling. Not sure about the other side though.
 

Killingworth

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The biggest problem with the railway between Dore and Sheffield is that it does not pass through the main centres of population and it dumps its passengers well away from where they want to be.
As do all trains arriving and departing from Sheffield, for geographical and historical reasons, which explains how Sheffield has so relatively few annual passengers for a city of its size.
 

unlevel42

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As do all trains arriving and departing from Sheffield, for geographical and historical reasons, which explains how Sheffield has so relatively few annual passengers for a city of its size.
This is getting confusing I have already said "There is no tradition of commuter rail services in Sheffield compared with other cities
Urban stations were on valley floors-people, lived on the hills" in post 692.
This part of the thread was about the Hope Valley line and commuting.
Dore is very handy for services to Manchester and that people drive here and fill the P&R, but is not, nor are the Hope Valley stations busy commuter line into Sheffield.
 

Killingworth

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It still looks pretty clear all the way, there appears to be space even at the Tesco. If not, the supermarkets have generally been looking to shrink their shops in the last 3 years or so.. those buildings go up pretty quick, it would not be much cost in the grand scheme of things to move a wall inwards.

The current approach to Sheffield from the south is a mess, so much time spent waiting outside the station or crawling in..
From the north is even worse..
There are lots of minor obstructions all the way down the valley following slewing of tracks and use made of vacant line side space. Almost every road over bridge needs raising for eventual electrification. Two bridges over London Road need to be restored in higher positions to give more clearance for road traffic. That would involve raising the railway embankments on either side for some distance to get gradients right. If the current double track bridge could also be raised the road surface might also be lifted to remove the hollow that frequently floods due to it being too near the level of the nearby River Sheaf.

The following photos show firstly looking south how the west side tracks have been lifted between Dore Station Junction and Archer Road over bridge, south. Probably no major issue restoring two tracks this far down the valley?

Yes, there is, on the opposite side of the bridge, looking north. The site of the former Millhouses station, motive power depot and other rail associated tracks and buildings was used to build a large Tesco superstore in 1995. The red brick building was the Friends Meeting House but it has been sold and is now a children's nursery. There are light industrial units between that and the store. All would have to go to restore 4 tracks. 3 is possible with some slewing and is envisaged to accommodate HS2. On the right hand side behind the trees is a large Sainsbury's store and a recently built commercial building, all too close to the railway to safely allow more than slight slewing.

IMG_20200526_125136.jpgIMG_20200526_125051_1.jpg

To the north is Archer Road, north bridge - Archer Road is crescent shaped and crosses the railway twice. The first picture looks south and shows how there should be room on the left (east) side for two tracks with a little slewing to the right? Not quite as easy as that because that wide space to the left is narrowing to get past Tesco's! The second picture looking north shows the south end of the Heeley up loop that is to be made more effective by some changes to the signalling to permit it to take longer freight trains. From here into Sheffield there is adequate space to make 4 tracks - save for the caveats about the London road bridge, and all the sundry items of equipment that have been installed on the old track beds in the last 50 years.

Given that any widening will take 10 years to plan and then another 10 years before it would be completed that 25 year old Tesco store must be due a rebuild by then. Rebuild it on stilts on their existing car park and include a 2 platform station on the western slow tracks. Plenty of room for parking while it's built in the hardly used adjacent existing park and ride car park. Once new store is built demolish the old and use some of the space for 2 or 3 storey extra parking for a now popular station - that might take a tram/train as well as Hope Valley stopping trains.

Scratches head and starts to add up likely costs and much lower revenue income to cover it all. Feasibility study starts to fall apart.

Dream on!!

IMG_20200526_123738.jpg IMG_20200526_123758.jpg
 
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Jozhua

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Yep. Funny how Manchester gets everything it wants for its Tram Network. Sheffield got a half hearted Tram Train.
It really doesn't. The trams only really came as an alternative to an underground metro or mainline rail tunnel under the city.

The trams exist as a way of bypassing an otherwise ineffective public transport system, and keeping some of our commuter rail routes open. Places without the trams have awful connectivity for cities of their size (from my lived experience being here for 3 years) and the rollout of the network to more boroughs cannot come fast enough.

But, we should not be pointing fingers at who gets what and squabbling over scraps, when we should all be pointing fingers at Westminster for only giving us scraps in the first place. We should be asking for more for renewals, local schemes like Hope Valley and for local tram/bus infrastructure.

I.e operating costs, Metrolink does operate a pretty tight ship and fares are perhaps not as cheap as they could be, but the zone-based system works pretty well overall and I'd say it offers good value for money, especially compared to our joke of a bus "network". Up until this year, they were covering operating costs from fares, which is pretty good going!
 

cle

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It really doesn't. The trams only really came as an alternative to an underground metro or mainline rail tunnel under the city.

The trams exist as a way of bypassing an otherwise ineffective public transport system, and keeping some of our commuter rail routes open. Places without the trams have awful connectivity for cities of their size (from my lived experience being here for 3 years) and the rollout of the network to more boroughs cannot come fast enough.

But, we should not be pointing fingers at who gets what and squabbling over scraps, when we should all be pointing fingers at Westminster for only giving us scraps in the first place. We should be asking for more for renewals, local schemes like Hope Valley and for local tram/bus infrastructure.

I.e operating costs, Metrolink does operate a pretty tight ship and fares are perhaps not as cheap as they could be, but the zone-based system works pretty well overall and I'd say it offers good value for money, especially compared to our joke of a bus "network". Up until this year, they were covering operating costs from fares, which is pretty good going!
But in-fighting on how gets what crumbs between the northern cities is what we do best!

Manchester's railways today could not have expanded without Metrolink. Imagine the Castlefield Corridor or through operations at Victoria (now with TPE) if the Oldham, Bury and Altrincham routes were still NR. Insanity. It's also the only way to grow Manchester's 'commuter rail' patronage and behaviour changes. The Airport line is the perfect example of a pickle of what should be a high frequency urban route, but also has to content with faster regional services from the airport across the north.

Sheffield, I can't see that is has any equivalency in the commuter rail absorption part - business cases are made through released paths these days! The tram is pretty comprehensive - Midland, city centre, both unis, Meadowhall and now the tram train. What else would you do with it?
 

DavidSM

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Sheffield, I can't see that is has any equivalency in the commuter rail absorption part - business cases are made through released paths these days! The tram is pretty comprehensive - Midland, city centre, both unis, Meadowhall and now the tram train. What else would you do with it?
well as an ex sheffield citizen.
I would have the tram routes go to both major hospitals for starters . The hallamshire hospital is near the childrens hospital, the dental hospital and western bank hospital ( for those not aware it’s the cancer centre).
There is another major hospital that could do with a tram to near its entrance
The other route I would have liked to see was a route out to Stockbridge and Oughtibridge via hillsborough.
Trouble is that when the original routes were planned and built the citizens and shopkeepers moaned bucket fulls regards mess, loss of business , unable to get near shops on route etc, so the route that ran to Malin bridge was terminated there and not built to its outlined
position further along and up a hill to boot.
The route out to meadow hell was an after thought and it has generated a lot of money Since it’s opening.
The idea of building a tram route out to Dore is not going to happen for reasons outlined back up the topic
 

skifans

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well as an ex sheffield citizen.
I would have the tram routes go to both major hospitals for starters . The hallamshire hospital is near the childrens hospital, the dental hospital and western bank hospital ( for those not aware it’s the cancer centre).
There is another major hospital that could do with a tram to near its entrance
The other route I would have liked to see was a route out to Stockbridge and Oughtibridge via hillsborough.
Trouble is that when the original routes were planned and built the citizens and shopkeepers moaned bucket fulls regards mess, loss of business , unable to get near shops on route etc, so the route that ran to Malin bridge was terminated there and not built to its outlined
position further along and up a hill to boot.
The route out to meadow hell was an after thought and it has generated a lot of money Since it’s opening.
The idea of building a tram route out to Dore is not going to happen for reasons outlined back up the topic
Interesting - I had no idea there was a consideration to go beyond Malin Bridge. Do you know when that got cut? The oldest documents I could get on Google was http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/trr/1992/1361/1361-016.pdf which still shows the branch as it is today, although some of the stations elsewhere on the network have different names/locations.

The tram strategy document (http://democracy.sheffield.gov.uk/Data/Cabinet/20090225/Agenda/Appendix B.pdf) did include a link down towards Dore as an option - joining the current alignment off Myrtle Road (on the SE side) and near Archer Road. There isn't much space at Myrtle Road - looks like you'd need to add a bridge over the Sheaf. And the line across Millhouses Park cuts through the cricket pitch which isn't ideal - and would require its own bridge across the Sheaf as well. I'd assume they thought it was at least plausible.

Just for completeness the other routes are one towards Ranmor from the end of West Street running along Glossop Road and Fulwood Road. Another goes up Rutland Road towards the Northern General. The final one (which might be a tram-train, not sure) joins the Sheffield to Lincon Line at Nunnery Bridge - leaving it to head through Waverley, Treeton and Whiston.

I might be wrong in this but I thought I had heard it said with the new tram train vehicles the depot was now (at least reasonably) full?
 

Jozhua

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But in-fighting on how gets what crumbs between the northern cities is what we do best!

Manchester's railways today could not have expanded without Metrolink. Imagine the Castlefield Corridor or through operations at Victoria (now with TPE) if the Oldham, Bury and Altrincham routes were still NR. Insanity. It's also the only way to grow Manchester's 'commuter rail' patronage and behaviour changes. The Airport line is the perfect example of a pickle of what should be a high frequency urban route, but also has to content with faster regional services from the airport across the north.

Sheffield, I can't see that is has any equivalency in the commuter rail absorption part - business cases are made through released paths these days! The tram is pretty comprehensive - Midland, city centre, both unis, Meadowhall and now the tram train. What else would you do with it?
Very true, god forbid we stop in-fighting and maybe work together to campaign for better treatment for us all!

Absolutely agree about Manchester's railways needing Metrolink. Remember, we are moving more passengers than at any time in history, with half the stations, and the stations that are left typically downscaled from their prior grandeur. Metrolink definately goes hand in hand with the existing network, just a shame that fares are not better integrated.

I think they serve a purpose of replacing existing lines, to reduce costs/increase service or both. Or to create an enhanced service to somewhere that otherwise relies on buses. Some of the Metrolink lines can be quite slow - the Eccles line comes to mind! - but they are generally consistent and easy to use. They may be slower than driving during quiet times, but are faster in the peaks. Something which you cannot say for the buses.

One thing Manchester does quite poorly on is eastward connections. With the local routes and Metrolink it's pretty good for commuter stuff to the border of Yorkshire/Derbyshire, but hits a big slowdown once it gets into the pennines proper. HS2 should improve some Midlands-bound stuff, but I'm still not sold that HS2+NPR will be more convenient than just running trains on a more direct route to Sheffield. Which is why the Hope Valley capacity boost is important. If more stuff towards Stockport is Metrolinked, and with HS2 removing XC and Avanti services from Stockport, then that leaves a lot of space for running more service between the two. Sheffield as well will have less XC and EMR trains to contend with on the run/Station throat up there, so could take more service too. Hope Valley still has a lot of "hope" for becoming a very useful intercity line.

In the longer term, seeing electrification and a bit of a speed boost (getting things closer to 100mph) would be nice to see.
 

WestRiding

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The signal is approach controlled coming from Meadowhall side IIRC, so you'll always be stepped down to a red there until you're crawling. Not sure about the other side though.
S150 at the North and S81/S79 are not approach controlled. You only get stopped there if awaiting a platform or conflicting move. And of course you get slowed down if going into an Occupied Platform.
 

edwin_m

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S150 at the North and S81/S79 are not approach controlled. You only get stopped there if awaiting a platform or conflicting move. And of course you get slowed down if going into an Occupied Platform.
Isn't Sheffield known to some drivers as the Crucible - you have to get a red before you get a colour?
 

Killingworth

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Straws in the wind? According to RTT W/C 18th Liverpool-Norwich services are being split at Nottingham with Liverpool-Nottingham running to normal schedule. There's not a good connection to the Nottingham - Norwich section. Is this a sign of what's to be? At present it shows from W/C 25th as back to the full route as it is today.

As pressure is on to improve punctuality it may be interesting to see if this helps. However, EMR punctuality along the Hope Valley is far more impacted by events west of Stockport.

Apparently final approval of the improvement scheme is still delayed and green light not now likely to be given in January. Any bets on February? Watched pot syndrome is setting in!
 

tommy2215

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Straws in the wind? According to RTT W/C 18th Liverpool-Norwich services are being split at Nottingham with Liverpool-Nottingham running to normal schedule. There's not a good connection to the Nottingham - Norwich section. Is this a sign of what's to be? At present it shows from W/C 25th as back to the full route as it is today.

As pressure is on to improve punctuality it may be interesting to see if this helps. However, EMR punctuality along the Hope Valley is far more impacted by events west of Stockport.
The Nottingham-Norwich section is being diverted via Melton Mowbray that week, I think that is the reason the route is being split, and why the bad connection is there.

I hope the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme happens soon, we've been waiting for long enough now.
 

LowLevel

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Straws in the wind? According to RTT W/C 18th Liverpool-Norwich services are being split at Nottingham with Liverpool-Nottingham running to normal schedule. There's not a good connection to the Nottingham - Norwich section. Is this a sign of what's to be? At present it shows from W/C 25th as back to the full route as it is today.

As pressure is on to improve punctuality it may be interesting to see if this helps. However, EMR punctuality along the Hope Valley is far more impacted by events west of Stockport.

Apparently final approval of the improvement scheme is still delayed and green light not now likely to be given in January. Any bets on February? Watched pot syndrome is setting in!

It is always like that when it diverts via Melton, unfortunately, except on a Sunday when there is more padding time. Werrington Junction works the cause.
 

WestRiding

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With the news that a new Trans Pennine road has been knocked on the head


Is there any news yet as to the progress of this rail scheme. The silence is deafening with the Hope Valley Capacity scheme.
 

Llandudno

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With the news that a new Trans Pennine road has been knocked on the head


Is there any news yet as to the progress of this rail scheme. The silence is deafening with the Hope Valley Capacity scheme.
Perhaps they are going to install a cycle lane on the Snake Pass instead!
 

Killingworth

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With the news that a new Trans Pennine road has been knocked on the head


Is there any news yet as to the progress of this rail scheme. The silence is deafening with the Hope Valley Capacity scheme.
There is no new news! Those of us living nearby are totally....... fed up with the long wait.

Having attended all 3 rounds of public consultations at both Dore and in the Hope Valley, and attending the public inquiry, followed by contacts with NR and local MPs and interested bodies nobody can say why a decision is still awaited. Funds were earmarked in CP5, according to NR at the consultations, but then they weren't. More recently they were supposedly there in CP6.

Most recently contracts were expected to be let in January. Now it's February. If that is missed work probably won't start in 2022 for completion in 2023. Delay another year looks more likely as each day goes by.

However, that might be for good reasons? The plans were originally to permit 4 fast passenger services and an hourly stopping service per hour, plus freight. That was reduced to 3 fasts. Reality must now consider the current situation and see how relevant it is now.

In early 2020 TPE started providing 6 carriages an hour instead of mostly 3. EMR provide 4 but with 185s strongly rumoured to be coming that could be 6. Northern have replaced little old Pacers with 195s and 150/156s, sometimes 4 carriages. Net result, 7 carriages an hour could very soon be up to 16. Loadings are, of course, currently minimal!

Freight traffic is heavier than ever. Congestion is still there, but the priority now is more about punctuality than passenger capacity. A rethink may be brewing.

Which brings us to Manchester and Sheffield where the former is already under active review. All the options need as many trains as possible to slot into their scheduled paths or we end up with nothing more than a different pattern of delays.

If a Sheffield-Manchester TPE train is 5 minutes late out of Sheffield it will probably be late into Piccadilly. The following Northern service will also be late because it can't be allowed beyond the Heeley up loop until the TPE has passed. There it may have to wait until a XC or EMR London service has gone south. Once released it may then have to wait at Dore Station Junction to allow north bound services through.

An early discarded option was to make the two platforms at Dore bi-directional. If that were added in the Northern train could get to Dore and be overtaken there. Another possibility could be to extend the Dore chord to allow access from the Sheffield direction and hold the stopper there. Either of these might also allow a northbound freight to be held to pick up a path on the down gradient into Sheffield and allow a passenger service to pass.

Nothing seems practically possible to ease the 6 minute headway through Totley tunnel.

At the other end of the Hope Valley there is no direct entry to Earles Sidings from the West. When a coal delivery comes in from S. Wales its frequently not on time and has to reverse in, blocking both tracks and services in both directions. A new crossover would be very useful.

The EMR services from Liverpool are often delayed by the time they get to Stockport and end up holding up the Northern stopper at New Mills, which is then delaying the following TPE! I'll leave it there.

But the scheme as planned might be agreed tomorrow, next week, or next month and open in July 2023.

I'd add that local observation suggests that the stopping services will recover a lot more strongly than the fasts.
 

palmersears

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If this ever gets off the ground, is New Mills South Junction signal box likely to disappear as part of the works? It's been held up by scaffolding for years, and I wonder whilst passing the location yesterday if Network Rail are holding off actually doing something about it in anticipation of its eventual removal?
 

Killingworth

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If this ever gets off the ground, is New Mills South Junction signal box likely to disappear as part of the works? It's been held up by scaffolding for years, and I wonder whilst passing the location yesterday if Network Rail are holding off actually doing something about it in anticipation of its eventual removal?
It's certainly not part of the current Hope Valley scheme. However, it is likely to go - in about 20 years time at current rate of resignalling progress! Far enough ahead to be unpredictable within 5-10 years.
 

palmersears

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It's certainly not part of the current Hope Valley scheme. However, it is likely to go - in about 20 years time at current rate of resignalling progress! Far enough ahead to be unpredictable within 5-10 years.
Thank you for confirming. In that case then I assume there's a plan to rectify whatever structural issue the scaffolding is currently addressing, but who knows!

Perhaps it will disappear off down the bank and end up in the Goyt?
It would have some way to go to end up in the Goyt! Might give a few of the local sheep a nasty shock if it went though.
 

Killingworth

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Network Rail are still working to the project completion date set out in the details sent to TOCs in October - completion June 2023. Quite what the hold up is that's preventing an announcement is unclear but the usual suspects are money, politics and managing the good news flow - often enough all three! Apparently we may hear in weeks, hopefully February.
 

The Planner

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Network Rail are still working to the project completion date set out in the details sent to TOCs in October - completion June 2023. Quite what the hold up is that's preventing an announcement is unclear but the usual suspects are money, politics and managing the good news flow - often enough all three! Apparently we may hear in weeks, hopefully February.
Are you are basing that off the Network Change documentation? be aware they can be amended and re-consulted. Though chances are it wouldn't be for a change in end date.
 
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