• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
1,014
Curious to see the plans for the Signalling part of the works, now that it's not going on the existing Sheffield Workstation. The idea was to give Sheffield ultimate regulation of trains heading for Sheffield, but looks like we will have the same problem as now, as the Hope Valley will be controlled by elsewhere.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,543
Curious to see the plans for the Signalling part of the works, now that it's not going on the existing Sheffield Workstation. The idea was to give Sheffield ultimate regulation of trains heading for Sheffield, but looks like we will have the same problem as now, as the Hope Valley will be controlled by elsewhere.

It is going to be a very curious, some might say half hearted modernisation really. I can see why retaining Earles Sidings box is desirable, it really is the best option for managing the exchange sidings and branch, but going from a theoretically modernised route to trundling through Edale with bells and semaphores will be a proper anachronism.
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
1,014
It is going to be a very curious, some might say half hearted modernisation really. I can see why retaining Earles Sidings box is desirable, it really is the best option for managing the exchange sidings and branch, but going from a theoretically modernised route to trundling through Edale with bells and semaphores will be a proper anachronism.
Earles was never due to shut, but it would be less than ideal for anyone but Sheffield to manage the trains coming towards Sheffield over the ex Grindleford and Totley box areas. Its absolutely pointless if the new Bamford Loop is controlled by someone with no idea of whats happening on the Mainline between Sheffield and Chesterfield.
 

Llandudno

Established Member
Joined
25 Dec 2014
Messages
2,178
As the passenger number figures for 2019-20 are to hand here they are for comparison, all east side figures based on hourly services and rising, over 10% at Dore;
  • Dore & Totley 219k (boosted by commuters for Manchester - could be nearer 500k if more trains stopped for journeys into and across Sheffield to Meadowhall and Doncaster or Leeds)
  • Grindleford 64k
  • Hathersage 73k
  • Bamford 44k
  • Hope 76k
  • Edale 100k
  • Chinley 129k
Then we go into Manchester with 2 tph at all the busiest which clearly helps ridership;
  • New Mills Central 227k
  • Strines 22k (falling)
  • Marple 498k
  • Romiley 394k
  • Bredbury 239k
  • Brinnington 109k (manned, and surrounded by security fencing like a prison camp last time I used it)
  • Reddish North 242k
  • Ryder Brow 33k
  • Belle Vue 8k
  • Ashburys 129k
Hope Valley is clearly less well populated but the stations attract a lot of incoming travellers drawn by outdoor pursuits. Edale is not really a village, more a valley of hamlets and the start of the Pennine Way. Grindleford, Bamford and Hope stations are all some distance from their respective villages. I'll leave fare evasion for now, suffice to say it's less of an issue for Northern when passengers board or alight at Piccadilly!
2 stopping trains per hour would, no doubt generate additional passengers from Chinley, Marple, Romiley and New Mills etc in the Sheffield direction as well.

The figures at Strines are low as the station is in the middle of nowhere and is not really a tourist attraction like Edale etc. The service at Strines is irregular with 2 hour gaps in service.

Not sure how passengers with Derbyshire/TfGM and various Rover tickets are counted on Hope Valley stoppers as the use of these tickets will be a lot higher at these stations than the likes of Brinnington and Ashburys etc!
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
Curious to see the plans for the Signalling part of the works, now that it's not going on the existing Sheffield Workstation. The idea was to give Sheffield ultimate regulation of trains heading for Sheffield, but looks like we will have the same problem as now, as the Hope Valley will be controlled by elsewhere.
I remember seeing and commenting on the plans - in fact as I think they're posted upthread somewhere.

It is going to be a very curious, some might say half hearted modernisation really. I can see why retaining Earles Sidings box is desirable, it really is the best option for managing the exchange sidings and branch, but going from a theoretically modernised route to trundling through Edale with bells and semaphores will be a proper anachronism.
Earles could have been retained as a glorified ground frame, to control the various moves within the yard and liaise with Sheffield (or wherever) for arrivals and departures.
Earles was never due to shut, but it would be less than ideal for anyone but Sheffield to manage the trains coming towards Sheffield over the ex Grindleford and Totley box areas. Its absolutely pointless if the new Bamford Loop is controlled by someone with no idea of whats happening on the Mainline between Sheffield and Chesterfield.
Agreed. TRUST must help a bit to see what's going on where, but I can see the Sheffield workstation being on the phone frequently to whoever controls Bamford, asking them to loop this one but let that one run through.
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
1,014
I remember seeing and commenting on the plans - in fact as I think they're posted upthread somewhere.


Earles could have been retained as a glorified ground frame, to control the various moves within the yard and liaise with Sheffield (or wherever) for arrivals and departures.

Agreed. TRUST must help a bit to see what's going on where, but I can see the Sheffield workstation being on the phone frequently to whoever controls Bamford, asking them to loop this one but let that one run through.
The plans were indeed posted, but that was when it was going onto Sheffield Workstation, which has now been thrown out.
 

absolutelymilk

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2015
Messages
1,239
Transport Minister @Andrew4Pendle has just confirmed to the House of Commons that the Government has awarded @networkrail £137 million to design and deliver the Hope Valley line upgrade between Manchester and Sheffield
https://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1369953159662174216?s=19
Transport Minister @Andrew4Pendle has just confirmed to the House of Commons that the Government has awarded
@networkrail £137 million to design and deliver the Hope Valley line upgrade between Manchester and Sheffield
Funding has just been confirmed in Parliament
 
Last edited by a moderator:

InOban

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2017
Messages
4,208
How much will£137m deliver? Or will the Treasury value engineer = descope it?
 

jw

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2010
Messages
165
Would it be too much to ask that the package of work that has just received funding aligns with the Integrated Rail Plan/TfN aspirations, or is this the package that was specified years ago and has just taken a very long time to get going? I hope there is compatibility between the two!
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,809
Location
Sheffield
Would it be too much to ask that the package of work that has just received funding aligns with the Integrated Rail Plan/TfN aspirations, or is this the package that was specified years ago and has just taken a very long time to get going? I hope there is compatibility between the two!
Indeed, specifications changed as the project progressed. Redoubling at Dore has been in the planning stages since before 2005. It has been suggested it could have been nearer 1995, not so long after it was singled in 1985! The loops at Dore and Bamford got added on, and the planned new Chinley loop was taken off again. If it was started today it would be different again.

One reason why it has to go ahead, albeit with apparently dysfunctional signalling, is that once North Pennine route electrification gets seriously underway extra capacity on South Pennine will be needed for diversions.

Some interesting years ahead!
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,809
Location
Sheffield
How much will£137m deliver? Or will the Treasury value engineer = descope it?
It already may have been. An option for making the section through Dore & Totley station bi-directional appeared in one diagram produced in the public inquiry documentation. I suspect that was a clerical error when preparing the huge box of papers. Subsequently it was explained as too costly due to extra signalling and track work.

If it were included it would make an effective extra loop. That could be useful;
  1. to hold a freight service as close as possible to Dore Station Junction on a downhill slope to pick up a path north through Sheffield.
  2. to hold a westbound stopping service clear to the west and south of Dore Station Junction and allow a close following (and often late) TPE to power by.
  3. give options for any train coming into Sheffield from the north and east to clear Sheffield platforms and return into the centre from Dore without going further - an option that may be examined if the restoring Sheaf Valley stations project gets off the ground
 
Last edited:

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Press Release now for this statement in Parliament.

Journeys are set to be transformed for northern passengers thanks to £137 million of government investment that will deliver more capacity and improve connectivity between Sheffield and Manchester.

To help meet future demand, the Hope Valley capacity scheme is designed to remove bottlenecks on the line by creating places for fast passenger services to overtake slower moving freight trains, allowing more trains to run and increasing the reliability of services.

Network Rail is now finalising detailed designs that will improve sections of the railway between Bamford station and Jaggers Lane Bridge in Hathersage, and around Dore & Totley station, where a second platform will also be added. Work is expected to begin in 2022 and will be completed in 2023.

Rail Minister Chris Heaton-Harris said:

I am delighted to confirm £137 million for this scheme to remove bottlenecks on the Hope Valley line, transforming journeys between Sheffield and Manchester – 2 dynamic Northern Powerhouse cities.
We are committed to levelling up infrastructure across the North, and these important upgrades will make a huge difference to passengers, providing the punctual, reliable services they deserve, as we build back better from COVID-19.
As part of this project, Network Rail will continue to look at ways to speed up the start of the work by:

  • carrying out signalling design work at the same time as the tendering process
  • talking to train and freight operating companies about changes to the network that may be needed during construction
Planning for the additional fast service through the Hope Valley scheme is being considered as part of work carried out by the Manchester Recovery Taskforce, which is looking at a range of options over the decade to improve performance in and around Manchester.

Government invests to transform journeys on Hope Valley line - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
 
Last edited:

johnnychips

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2011
Messages
3,675
Location
Sheffield
Strange, it was front page in the Sheffield Star tonight when I saw it in a shop, but I can’t find anything on the website. Just MPs moaning about the possible loss of the direct service to Manchester Airport. Mind, Sheff Utd have sacked their manager, so it might be buried somewhere under all that.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,809
Location
Sheffield
Strange, it was front page in the Sheffield Star tonight when I saw it in a shop, but I can’t find anything on the website. Just MPs moaning about the possible loss of the direct service to Manchester Airport. Mind, Sheff Utd have sacked their manager, so it might be buried somewhere under all that.
Sorry about copy, just retrieved from recycling.

20210312_221908.jpg20210312_230319.jpg
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,818
Location
Yorks
It's a relief that this has been announced officially.

Given the comparatively small amount of money involved and the importance of the route, its a no-brainer really. Seems better value for money than the mega-projects to my mind.
 

Jozhua

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
1,856
Does anyone know if speeds will be raised or journey times shortened at all by this?

Will signals be swapped out and what with?

Where are extra passing loops going to be, apart from Dore/Totley? If Dore is descoped to a single platform, will there be another passing loop for express trains?
Would it be too much to ask that the package of work that has just received funding aligns with the Integrated Rail Plan/TfN aspirations, or is this the package that was specified years ago and has just taken a very long time to get going? I hope there is compatibility between the two!
It's been through enough beauracratic delay already.

The first time I heard it announced was in 2017/18, planning to be delivered by around 2020/21. So it's been delayed a number of years.

A base tunnel will be many years away, even if we broke ground now (which we won't). So until that time, I don't see a world where an extra express and freight will be surplus to requirements.

Even during lockdown times, there's an argument to be made that you could split either the TPE or EMR services in half and run the unit as a more frequent service. But I expect passenger levels to be a lot higher than that in the next couple years.
It's a relief that this has been announced officially.

Given the comparatively small amount of money involved and the importance of the route, its a no-brainer really. Seems better value for money than the mega-projects to my mind.
Absolutely a relief.

It's hard to compare to the Mega-Projects, they are just delivering such different things.

Absolutely this project is needed, provides good value and should hopefully allow for service improvement.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,809
Location
Sheffield
Does anyone know if speeds will be raised or journey times shortened at all by this?

Will signals be swapped out and what with?

Where are extra passing loops going to be, apart from Dore/Totley? If Dore is descoped to a single platform, will there be another passing loop for express trains?

It's been through enough beauracratic delay already.

The first time I heard it announced was in 2017/18, planning to be delivered by around 2020/21. So it's been delayed a number of years.

A base tunnel will be many years away, even if we broke ground now (which we won't). So until that time, I don't see a world where an extra express and freight will be surplus to requirements.

Even during lockdown times, there's an argument to be made that you could split either the TPE or EMR services in half and run the unit as a more frequent service. But I expect passenger levels to be a lot higher than that in the next couple years.

Absolutely a relief.

It's hard to compare to the Mega-Projects, they are just delivering such different things.

Absolutely this project is needed, provides good value and should hopefully allow for service improvement.
This project has been on drawing boards since the time Railtrack was formed out of British Rail! The first public evidence can be found on Sheffield"s Planning website in 2005.

I attended 3 rounds of public consultations at Dore and Hathersage in 2013 and 2015 (2 that year) and the public inquiry in 2016. They all referred to completion in 2018. To state the obvious, we should have been using the capacity for over 2 years.

Yes, a base tunnel would totally change the situation. If it could open tomorrow by magic it would revolutionise the North. It would then create new issues as we adapted. It could offer a 20 minute journey time, city centre to city centre. Not much help to me if I needed to allow 30 more minutes to get to the city centre for a connection than catching current trains at Dore!

There's the rub. We don't all travel from city centre to city centre. Once we factor in travel to those points the availability of connections (and despicable cars) to bridge the final miles comes in.

On journey times after this scheme is completed I'd forecast that the greatest improvement will come from more trains being able to run to the current timings before cutting a few minutes off here and there. A lot has changed since the planning started for all this.

The difficulty is paths through Manchester and Sheffield. The new loops at Dore and Bamford are designed for freight. I suspect the one at Bamford may get some limited passenger use. A third loop at Chinley was removed after the first round of public consultation when it was realised that the provision of 4 fast paths was incompatible with capacity at both ends! 3 is going to be quite challenging.

The Heeley down loop is being resignalled to take longer trains. Such details may give modest benefits. Resignalling west of Bamford is needed next.
 
Last edited:

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,809
Location
Sheffield
Between Edgeley Junction (south of Stockport) and New Mills
That's outside the scheme which only stretches from Bamford to the up Heeley loop in Sheffield. Anything else is a bonus.

There are some very modest speed limit increases which combined with better acceleration and braking may allow a few minutes to be cut from journey times. Further track work and signalling will still be necessary.
 

Jozhua

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
1,856
This project has been on drawing boards since the time Railtrack was formed out of British Rail! The first public evidence can be found on Sheffield"s Planning website in 2005.

I attended 3 rounds of public consultations at Dore and Hathersage in 2013 and 2015 (2 that year) and the public inquiry in 2016. They all referred to completion in 2018. To state the obvious, we should have been using the capacity for over 2 years.

Yes, a base tunnel would totally change the situation. If it could open tomorrow by magic it would revolutionise the North. It would then create new issues as we adapted. It could offer a 20 minute journey time, city centre to city centre. Not much help to me if I needed to allow 30 more minutes to get to the city centre for a connection than catching current trains at Dore!

There's the rub. We don't all travel from city centre to city centre. Once we factor in travel to those points the availability of connections (and despicable cars) to bridge the final miles comes in.

On journey times after this scheme is completed I'd forecast that the greatest improvement will come from more trains being able to run to the current timings before cutting a few minutes off here and there. A lot has changed since the planning started for all this.

The difficulty is paths through Manchester and Sheffield. The new loops at Dore and Bamford are designed for freight. I suspect the one at Bamford may get some limited passenger use. A third loop at Chinley was removed after the first round of public consultation when it was realised that the provision of 4 fast paths was incompatible with capacity at both ends! 3 is going to be quite challenging.

The Heeley down loop is being resignalled to take longer trains. Such details may give modest benefits. Resignalling west of Bamford is needed next.
Oh, so even longer then!

I think a base tunnel or express alignment should be the eventual goal, but that shouldn't stop us concentrating on the Hope Valley, like you say, it will serve to be a valuable route as not everyone is going to be city centre Manchester - Sheffield.

For me, I travel city centre Manchester to the east of Derby, so the biggest addition of journey time for me is by far going up to Sheffield and back. It must add at least 15 minutes to the journey time... (considering services are scheduled 8 minutes from Dore-Sheffield). I would obviously like to see the extra service divert past Sheffield and go straight down towards Chesterfield, but understand Sheffield also does not get the greatest of cross-pennine connectivity. However, if it is possible to squeese a fourth service in (likely only possible if passing loops set up for local trains as well), then I think having that run directly down into Derbyshire would make a lot of sense. At least one really fast route to Manchester/Liverpool an hour.

Of course, if/when HS2's Northern legs arrive, passengers will be able to change in Birmingham and be taken straight up to the East Midlands Hub. Despite not being all that efficient, it may very well be faster than existing journey times from Derby/Nottingham to Manchester/Liverpool.
Between Edgeley Junction (south of Stockport) and New Mills
That's outside the scheme which only stretches from Bamford to the up Heeley loop in Sheffield. Anything else is a bonus.

There are some very modest speed limit increases which combined with better acceleration and braking may allow a few minutes to be cut from journey times. Further track work and signalling will still be necessary.
Thanks for letting me know!

I'd assume most speed limitations are from tight curves, S&C, with maybe a few from less sturdy bridges/trackwork and the like. I feel like the first and last are probably the more addressible ones as they don't involve potential kaiboshing of surrounding areas.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,809
Location
Sheffield
For me, I travel city centre Manchester to the east of Derby, so the biggest addition of journey time for me is by far going up to Sheffield and back. It must add at least 15 minutes to the journey time... (considering services are scheduled 8 minutes from Dore-Sheffield). I would obviously like to see the extra service divert past Sheffield and go straight down towards Chesterfield, but understand Sheffield also does not get the greatest of cross-pennine connectivity. However, if it is possible to squeese a fourth service in (likely only possible if passing loops set up for local trains as well), then I think having that run directly down into Derbyshire would make a lot of sense. At least one really fast route to Manchester/Liverpool an hour.
Before we start scheduling passenger services round the Dore curve bear in mind that it's intended to act as a holding point for long freight trains waiting to move between the Hope Valley and MML. When anything gets held up on either line that curve could be blocked for quite a long time. That wouldn't go well with a scheduled passenger service also wanting to use that chord.

Currently the intention is still to add a third fast service between Sheffield and Manchester. The market may have, almost certainly has, changed since this scheme was designed. Currently Manchester Airport use has dropped off as big a cliff as rail. Commuting is still only 15% of what it was before Covid. By 2023 we'll have a better idea of how well these two markets recover.

We've almost got a clock face stopping service, but there are major gaps. When a train is cancelled (quite a frequent event) and it's already 2 hours between scheduled stops the stopping service is - not very popular!! Cars are the preferred means of travel as a result. Users in the Hope Valley would like a half hourly service, even if it might be formed from a fast service stopping at a station, say Hope, every hour.

Living within 10 minutes walk from Dore & Totley I'm clearly biased. I can get TPE fast trains to Manchester at 5.15, 6.15, 7.15 and 8.15 (plus EMR at 6.25 and 7.39). I can get a direct TPE train to Meadowhall (the shopping centre for South Yorkshire and most of the Hope Valley at 8.05, 18.05, 19.05, 20.02, 21.02 and 22.05 - all but the 8.05 designed for returning Manchester commuters and virtually useless for shoppers or workers at the complex. Dore users would love those trains to stop in both directions all day. Not only for Meadowhall but also the connection to Doncaster and the ECML.

There's still a lot to be fought over as Covid recovery proceeds and the construction work progresses.
 
Last edited:

BrianW

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2017
Messages
1,369
I saw no mention in the Press Release that train journeys would be speeded up, on that increases in reliability and punctuality would be facilitated.
Regarding this:
'talking to train and freight operating companies about changes to the network that may be needed during construction'- I'm unsure whether this means that consultation will take place during construction, or that changes to the network may be required during construction.

I note also this: 'Planning for the additional fast service through the Hope Valley scheme is being considered as part of work carried out by the Manchester Recovery Taskforce, which is looking at a range of options over the decade to improve performance in and around Manchester'- which I think means there may be no 'additional fast service', maybe related to whether or not Manchester Airport is served direct from Sheffield.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,809
Location
Sheffield
Latest news is that on Saturday "neighbours of the railway" received letters advising of a June start date. Although the main contract is 15 months from April 2022 there's a lot of preparatory work before then to get work sites ready for the main contractors. Lay people probably won't appreciate the difference.

Already concerns are being expressed about parking during the contract term. Fortunately, in one way, post Covid Dore & Totley station car park is all but empty, barring those going for a walk or, from today, visitors to the next door Summer House restaurant. At least a third of it will be required by the contractors.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,809
Location
Sheffield
This project has been on drawing boards in Manchester since before 2005 and was being run by Network Rail LNW. It's now being run by LNE based in Leeds to ensure closer coordination with the Transpennine route improvements.
 
Last edited:

Top