Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[edwin_m]

But that's the logic that led Dore station to be singled all those years ago.

I'm not saying its right, just that extra features sometimes cost more than they might seem to at first sight.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm not saying its right, just that extra features sometimes cost more than they might seem to at first sight.

And almost certainly cost even more to add later!

 

[ricoblade]

Hmm, I was hoping to get the 12:14 from Sheffield to Dore but it was summarily cancelled, didn’t see the reason. Had to get a 97 bus which is OK but takes a lot longer.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Welcome to the West side of Northern on a Sunday.

 

[Killingworth]

Hmm, I was hoping to get the 12:14 from Sheffield to Dore but it was summarily cancelled, didn’t see the reason. Had to get a 97 bus which is OK but takes a lot longer.

As seen at Dore! 1 of the 3 diagrams cancelled today, as they have been for over a month. Confirmed very early in the morning.



Sunday trains would be very well used but folks are now avoiding them. Leisure users tend to get to stations earlier than commuters and are less bothered by a slower train BUT they are very unwilling to hang around at smaller stations for an hour in the hope that the next train turns up on time - and then the same may happen on the way coming back.

Returning to capacity, EMRs 1R50 0945 Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street now runs as 6 car and is usually full every Sunday when it stops at Dore. First westbound train of the day from Nottingham. I checked last night on EMR and National Rail Apps and found no tickets left on that fromDore. But I could have bought at the Dore TVM - and I might have got a single seat somewhere.


Work continued by West View Lane last night.

 

[Killingworth]

The reputation of the railway industry generally is at rock bottom at the smaller stations along the Hope Valley line, none more so than at Dore.

The Dore loop was originally to be completed by August 2023. It became operational on 25th March but work will not be completed before January 2025 at best.

Are users getting better services for all the millions spent? Absolutely not! They've rarely been worse. At least during strikes you know for certain that they're not coming.

For the last 9 Sundays (and probably tomorrow) at least 1 in 3 stopping services did not run. In the evenings you might as well forget planning to catch a Northern train. That usually means 2 lost journeys. If you can't rely on being able to get back you won't travel out by train either. But no temporary timetable has been published despite it clearly being operated. Politics?

It seems Network Rail will have over run their original budgets so much that passengers get no covered seats on Dore's Sheffield bound platform. And Northern haven't the budget to man and operate their timetabled trains.

If the railway isn't providing even a very basic service, what's all the disruption for this project been for? What's the railway for?

To wind us up even more Northern are advertising Sheffield to Manchester tickets from £5. Would you dare book? https://www.facebook.com/northernassist/videos/1525684974737464/

 

[WesternBiker]

View attachment 168000 View attachment 168001

The reputation of the railway industry generally is at rock bottom at the smaller stations along the Hope Valley line, none more so than at Dore.

The Dore loop was originally to be completed by August 2023. It became operational on 25th March but work will not be completed before January 2025 at best.

Are users getting better services for all the millions spent? Absolutely not! They've rarely been worse. At least during strikes you know for certain that they're not coming.

For the last 9 Sundays (and probably tomorrow) at least 1 in 3 stopping services did not run. In the evenings you might as well forget planning to catch a Northern train. That usually means 2 lost journeys. If you can't rely on being able to get back you won't travel out by train either. But no temporary timetable has been published despite it clearly being operated. Politics?

It seems Network Rail will have over run their original budgets so much that passengers get no covered seats on Dore's Sheffield bound platform. And Northern haven't the budget to man and operate their timetabled trains.

If the railway isn't providing even a very basic service, what's all the disruption for this project been for? What's the railway for?

To wind us up even more Northern are advertising Sheffield to Manchester tickets from £5. Would you dare book? https://www.facebook.com/northernassist/videos/1525684974737464/

I agree. I'd be furious if I turned up to see that on the monitor.

 

[Killingworth]

I agree. I'd be furious if I turned up to see that on the monitor.

The replacement bus can take almost 3 hours end to end so arrives nowhere near the train departure and arrival points at stations en route! A farcical nonsense!!

 

[eastdyke]

The replacement bus can take almost 3 hours end to end so arrives nowhere near the train departure and arrival points at stations en route! A farcical nonsense!!

Looks like a severe dose of 'Qu'ils mangent de la brioche'. See also Marston Vale.

 

[Killingworth]

Looks like a severe dose of 'Qu'ils mangent de la brioche'. See also Marston Vale.

Indeed, however there was conspicuous progress beside the Dore loop last night, compare with my previous picture.



Train capacity was good on 2 successive 6 car services this morning from both Northern and EMR, both very well loaded. Unfortunately Northern are cancelling 1 in 3 trains again today so the group of 15 year olds on their first unaccompanied trip to Manchester for the day had to wait an extra hour and found their planned train to come back has also been cancelled. It was a lovely sunny morning to observe the lovely wooded setting.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Meanwhile the Budget has apparently given the go-ahead for work around Mottram Moor to upgrade the A57 Sheffield-Manchester route to reduce journey times. [From BBC website.]
The recent Hope Valley Line Upgrade doesn’t appear to have actually allowed any reduction in rail journey times given the effectively ‘fixed’ paths into Sheffield and Manchester.
Some shale seems to be moving from North Wales by road currently, so once the long-delayed rail discharge facilities are completed there should be some benefit to local communities (but with an awkward ‘propelling back’ movement at Earle’s Sidings).

 

[Killingworth]

Meanwhile the Budget has apparently given the go-ahead for work around Mottram Moor to upgrade the A57 Sheffield-Manchester route to reduce journey times. [From BBC website.]
The recent Hope Valley Line Upgrade doesn’t appear to have actually allowed any reduction in rail journey times given the effectively ‘fixed’ paths into Sheffield and Manchester.
Some shale seems to be moving from North Wales by road currently, so once the long-delayed rail discharge facilities are completed there should be some benefit to local communities (but with an awkward ‘propelling back’ movement at Earle’s Sidings).

It doesnt seem to have significantly improved reliability of services between the two cities. It's possible a few minutes of delays imported before Sheffield and Piccadilly may be recovered but apparently not so much to allow any regular extra stops to be added between Stockport and Sheffield.

The previous post about slate waste starting to come to Earle's has been moved to another thread. Bringing anything into Earle's from the west, be it coal or shale, requires a reversal across the westbound track thus blocking both lines for a critical period. In the past it's caused some big delays. Installing a crossover to allow such trains a quicker path direct into the sidings isn't considered a cost effective option. As the works have a relatively limited life left that's unlikely to change. Fortunately the future slate path highlighted arrives about 02.30 so shouldn't impact passenger traffic.

 

[ricoblade]

Just arrived at Dore to this, good job I made it for the 13:59 (I’d checked it had left Piccadilly anyway).

See what you mean about (lack of) seating on Platform 2. A lonely group of 4 in the open air then just the useless “bum resters” in the shelter.

 

[Killingworth]

Just arrived at Dore to this, good job I made it for the 13:59 (I’d checked it had left Piccadilly anyway).

See what you mean about (lack of) seating on Platform 2. A lonely group of 4 in the open air then just the useless “bum resters” in the shelter.

Official name, perch seats. Others call them squat seats.

There are another 4 open air seats to the north end of Platform 2, beyond the half shelter with 6 perch seats. They may be replaced with proper seats but they get limited protection if there's any wind.

Up to now I'd have fairly safely assumed that if a train had left Piccadilly in service it would arrive in Sheffield and run the return service, other mishaps permitting.

I note this mornings 2S90 05468 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield got to Sheffield at 7.08. However the return working 2S71 0711 Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly was cancelled, "This service was cancelled due to an issue with the train crew (TH)."

There will be more cancellations before the end of today.

 

[LowLevel]

Official name, perch seats. Others call them squat seats.

There are another 4 open air seats to the north end of Platform 2, beyond the half shelter with 6 perch seats. They may be replaced with proper seats but they get limited protection if there's any wind.

Up to now I'd have fairly safely assumed that if a train had left Piccadilly in service it would arrive in Sheffield and run the return service, other mishaps permitting.

I note this mornings 2S90 05468 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield got to Sheffield at 7.08. However the return working 2S71 0711 Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly was cancelled, "This service was cancelled due to an issue with the train crew (TH)."

There will be more cancellations before the end of today.

The guard (who will have been Manchester based as you know) took ill during the outward journey and was unable to work the train back, the train was delayed at Hathersage whilst the driver checked on their welfare.

 

[Killingworth]

The guard (who will have been Manchester based as you know) took ill during the outward journey and was unable to work the train back, the train was delayed at Hathersage whilst the driver checked on their welfare.

If it's not one thing it's another! Hope the guard is OK.

 

[Cowley]

Let’s try and keep this topic purely on the infrastructure side of things please. Thanks.

 

[Killingworth]

Monday update.

Further work proceeded alongside the Dore loop over the weekend and it's reported to be closed today to allow further progress. Compare with pictures in Posts 2136 and 2140. Residents in the flats will be extremely pleased to see the end of this work.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Thanks for all the photo updates @Killingworth.

 

[unlevel42]

If there was a gong to be awarded for contributions to this forum then I would propose Killingworth. Not just for the updates, photos but also for the impact on users and locals before during and after construction but also for background and history. Thanks.

 

[Killingworth]

The Dore loop below West View Lane and Poynton Wood is giving contractors a few headaches. Since August seven weekends of work have been lost due to machine and pile failures. Contingency plans for work now continue until 7/8th December, an extra 3 weekends since the last letter to local residents. At least it's being well used.

Reports from the Hope Valley suggest the loop at Bamford is rarely used and when it is it may be by Northern stoppers to be passed by the following TPE service rather than the freight it was designed for. The result is helping TPE but it's not doing Northern's punctuality statistics a lot of good. Such are the knock on effects of any single delay multiplying across the nation.

This one started 8 minutes down from Piccadilly and lost 7 more minutes in the Bamford loop ending 15 late into Sheffield. Inevitably it started late back from Sheffield and was 10 minutes down all the way to Manchester. Well done to the crew for recovering 5 minutes in Sheffield. See; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G32774/2024-11-14/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[coxxy]

Tbh the loop isn't helping anyone. I've lost count of the number if freight trains I've still been following down the Hope Valley. I've never seen a train in the loop, and inevitably still expect to start catching Yellows around Earles sidings.

 

[Starmill]

Tbh the loop isn't helping anyone. I've lost count of the number if freight trains I've still been following down the Hope Valley. I've never seen a train in the loop, and inevitably still expect to start catching Yellows around Earles sidings.

Realistically it wasn't ever going to be used that frequently. Now it may help more from next year onwards as the FOCs are able to adjust their pick up and delivery times to suit the two new places they can wait at. Or it may not, and it'll only ever be used a few times a week. Nearly all the times it has been used as reported in this thread it's just been to aid recovery, so you wouldn't really expect to see it that often for that reason.

 

[Trainman40083]

Realistically it wasn't ever going to be used that frequently. Now it may help more from next year onwards as the FOCs are able to adjust their pick up and delivery times to suit the two new places they can wait at. Or it may not, and it'll only ever be used a few times a week. Nearly all the times it has been used as reported in this thread it's just been to aid recovery, so you wouldn't really expect to see it that often for that reason.

I imagine freight trains have timetables just like passenger trains, and only get changed at certain times, else the trains could conflict along the route. Maybe the new loop allows for extra trains that are yet to run.

 

[Killingworth]

I imagine freight trains have timetables just like passenger trains, and only get changed at certain times, else the trains could conflict along the route. Maybe the new loop allows for extra trains that are yet to run.

The rationale and difficulty with the loop and heavy stone trains was pointed out at the public inquiry. Once an aggregate train has pulled out and across the westbound traffic at Chinley East Junction and gets up momentum it's best kept going. Slowing it down to enter the Bamford loop, then pulling away to regain that momentum will add at least the 7 minutes delay experienced by the Northern 195 service I highlighted above. The 195's stopping and acceleration performance is much greater.

Those who pointed out this now fairly obvious fact were largely brushed aside to consider all the objections to things like noise, pollution, closure of a pedestrian footpath and replacement new footbridge.

In practice timetabling a second hourly skip stopping service to use the loop could be it's most useful role (a 4th hourly service between Manchester and Sheffield) - except that capacity probably isn't there going west!

However there are days when traffic may need capacity to, say, 'stack' a cement train in the Dore loop for a path south and an aggregate train at Bamford for a path through Sheffield. I might have suggested making the section from Dore West Junction to Dore Station Junction bi-directional would be cheaper and give greater flexibility without losing much but better brains than mine decided differently.

 

[Nottingham59]

Reports from the Hope Valley suggest the loop at Bamford is rarely used

Sound familiar. Cue Ordsall Chord, and the 18tph capacity of HS2 phase 1. ...

 

[Rail Ranger]

The fact that the Hope Valley local service ran via Stockport for months earlier this year indicates that in fact a path for an additional train via that route is available although platform capacity at Piccadilly would be an issue.

 

[Killingworth]

The fact that the Hope Valley local service ran via Stockport for months earlier this year indicates that in fact a path for an additional train via that route is available although platform capacity at Piccadilly would be an issue.

Starting to go off topic but it wouldn't even need an extra path between Chinley and Manchester to allow a 4th hourly passenger service, as long as the existing New Mills Central stopper were extended by skipping into Sheffield - where it might not find a platform. Solve one problem and find another.

 

[Trainman40083]

Starting to go off topic but it wouldn't even need an extra path between Chinley and Manchester to allow a 4th hourly passenger service, as long as the exiting New Mills Central stopper were extended by skipping into Sheffield - where it might not find a platform. Solve one problem and find another.

Haven't they had an issue at Sheffield, because the Hope Valley stopper was too long for the south bay, off platform 2? Wonder why they don't use 7?

 

[Killingworth]

Haven't they had an issue at Sheffield, because the Hope Valley stopper was too long for the south bay, off platform 2? Wonder why they don't use 7?

2C takes only 2 carriages and now they run 3 car 195s. They usually do use 7 but 1, 2, 5 and 8 can also be used.

8 cars sometimes run but have to go into 1 (not ideal due to signalling issues) 2, 5 or 8.