Horsham to Carlisle via Leeds BOJ at Ribblehead with LNER?

[E759]

Looking at travelling from Horsham to Carlisle and back same day over the Settle & Carlisle with a BOJ at Ribblehead on the way back. Do the LNER Advances eg Kings Cross to Carlisle via Leeds allow BOJ at Ribblehead?

Trainsplit results suggest this is possible as I put in a return via Ribblehead and a wait of 30 and it produced an Itinerary; arrive 16:14, depart 17:45. Problem with the ticket splits offered is (1) they seemed about £10 higher than they could be for the day in question (26/4/2019) and (2) have you changing at Stevenage (shudder!).

Reason for asking is that I see Northern Advances for the Settle & Carlisle prohibit BOJ - boo hoo.

Thank you.

 

[bb21]

Advance fares do not permit break of journey. None of them does.

If you are merely interchanging and stretching your legs as per booked itinerary, that does not class as break of journey.

 

[E759]

Advance fares do not permit break of journey. None of them does.

If you are merely interchanging and stretching your legs as per booked itinerary, that does not class as break of journey.

Thank you.

OK, so that implies an error with Trainsplit then: Arrive Ribblehead 16:14 then depart on the next train at 17:45 using a Carlisle to Kings Cross (KGX) Advance Single. [Time to photograph a north bound service over the viaduct.]

Should I post in the Trainsplit thread?

PS: Ignore the wibble about Stevenage, I forgot to put KGX via points. And yes that brings the price down too!

 

[yorkie]

Thank you.

OK, so that implies an error with Trainsplit then: Arrive Ribblehead 16:14 then depart on the next train at 17:45 using a Carlisle to Kings Cross (KGX) Advance Single. [Time to photograph a north bound service over the viaduct.]

Should I post in the Trainsplit thread?

PS: Ignore the wibble about Stevenage, I forgot to put KGX via points. And yes that brings the price down too!

No. This is not an error with Trainsplit. You are allowed to change trains but you cannot exit any station (except to transfer to another station, where appropriate, or where given permission to do so).

For example having a 3 course meal in Wetherspoon at Leeds station is absolutely fine and does not constitute a break of journey. But going for a random walk does constitute a break of journey and is not permitted.

I make no comment on the enforceability of break of journey restrictions, but that is what they are.

 

[E759]

Thank you for the clarification. As the particular leg is operated by Northern I'll buy something like an off-peak day return instead for that leg. I've no intention of being issued with a PF or worse prosecuted.

 

[yorkie]

Thank you for the clarification. As the particular leg is operated by Northern I'll buy something like an off-peak day return instead for that leg. I've no intention of being issued with a PF or worse prosecuted.

A Penalty Fare cannot legally be issued for break of journey as the legislation does not allow for it.

If staff were to object to you breaking your journey the worst they can do is charge you the difference between the fare paid and the lowest priced fare that would have allowed the journey that was actually made.

NRCoT 16.4:

If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.

That said, I've never heard of this Condition actually enforced correctly; I've heard of a couple of cases where whole new tickets were issued - contrary to the rules - and for which the customers received an apology and full refund, and the train companies concerned received negative press.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the chance of this being enforced somewhere like Ribblehead is somewhere between nil and nil, particularly if you take your itinerary with you and say you were booked to do that.

That said, the proper way is to use a walk-up for that bit as you suggest.

 

[bb21]

I'm a little bit confused what it is that you wanted to do. Do you want to actually finish your journey at Ribblehead, or are you intending to carry on to Carlisle? Is the question purely over the price of the ticket (ie. £10 more than the lowest tier if I understood you correctly) or is it not possible to obtain an Advance fare to Ribblehead so you want to stop short on a Carlisle ticket?

If all you wanted is an hour or so at Ribblehead to have a look around, that itinerary you obtained originally would be fine. Regardless of the technicalities, you are not going to get in trouble for having a wander around town instead of spending a whole hour on a cold platform waiting for your connection. The press will have a field day if you ended up with a Penalty Fare for that.

 

[E759]

Thank you for all the new replies:

The threat of being forced to buy a whole new ticket is uppermost in my mind

HRH to KGX
KGX to LDS
LDS to CAR
“Lunch”
CAR to Ribblehead
Walk to Viaduct
Photo northbound service
Run to pub, quick drink
Ribblehead to LDS
LDS to KGX
KGX to HRH
Bed




To play safe I can book a complete Itinerary with TrainSplit and buy a separate £8 Advance single to show the Northern Conductor from Carlisle.

Sorted.
Thank you.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thank you for all the new replies:

The threat of being forced to buy a whole new ticket is uppermost in my mind

HRH to KGX
KGX to LDS
LDS to CAR
“Lunch”
CAR to Ribblehead
Walk to Viaduct
Photo northbound service
Run to pub, quick drink
Ribblehead to LDS
LDS to KGX
KGX to HRH
Bed




To play safe I can book a complete Itinerary with TrainSplit and buy a separate £8 Advance single to show the Northern Conductor from Carlisle.

Sorted.
Thank you.

If you are forced to buy a new ticket, that is never going to be the correct response to breaking your journey where that isn't permitted. The correct, and worst possible, outcome, if any action is taken at all (which I think we can pretty categorically say isn't happening at somewhere like Ribblehead), is that you are charged the excess to the cheapest fare that would have permitted break of journey in the first place.

Now, of course, if you wish to stick 110% to the rules, and spend more to do that, that's your prerogative but I think there wouldn't be a single conductor out there* that would insist you had to stay on Ribblehead station during a booked wait in your Advance's itinerary.

The only possible circumstance where your incorrect break of journey would be noticed would be if there happened to be RPIs at Ribblehead. I'm not saying that can't or won't happen, but it seems very unlikely to me. If they are there, you can always ask them and they might well allow you anyway!

*OK, perhaps there are the 'usual suspects', but those are so tiny in number that they pale into insignificance.

 

[E759]

If you are forced to buy a new ticket, that is never going to be the correct response to breaking your journey where that isn't permitted. The correct, and worst possible, outcome, if any action is taken at all (which I think we can pretty categorically say isn't happening at somewhere like Ribblehead), is that you are charged the excess to the cheapest fare that would have permitted break of journey in the first place.

Now, of course, if you wish to stick 110% to the rules, and spend more to do that, that's your prerogative but I think there wouldn't be a single conductor out there* that would insist you had to stay on Ribblehead station during a booked wait in your Advance's itinerary.

The only possible circumstance where your incorrect break of journey would be noticed would be if there happened to be RPIs at Ribblehead. I'm not saying that can't or won't happen, but it seems very unlikely to me. If they are there, you can always ask them and they might well allow you anyway!

*OK, perhaps there are the 'usual suspects', but those are so tiny in number that they pale into insignificance.

Thank you. And how exactly does the conductor calculate that? Ticket in question is Advance Single CAR to KGX. The correct tickets should be (1) advance single CAR to Ribblehead and (2) advance single Ribblehead to KGX. Price of the LNER Advances are variable so does the Conductor use regular fares?

My mind boggles as to how this would pan out should I meet one of those “suspects”

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thank you. And how exactly does the conductor calculate that? Ticket in question is Advance Single CAR to KGX. The correct tickets should be (1) advance single CAR to Ribblehead and (2) advance single Ribblehead to KGX. Price of the LNER Advances are variable so does the Conductor use regular fares?

My mind boggles as to how this would pan out should I meet one of those “suspects”

Let's say you had that Advance CAR-KGX. The appropriate fare would be the relevant walk-up single fare, which would be the Anytime Single, route 'Any Permitted', at £186.00 (public rate, Railcard would be £122.75). There's only the one 'appropriate fare' in this case, as it has to be a route 'Any Permitted' fare (not 'via Newcastle'), and the fare has to permit break of journey. The Off-Peak Single route 'Any Permitted' bars break of journey (somewhat surprisingly), so that isn't the appropriate fare. You would have to pay the difference between the cost of your Advance, and this fare. Split tickets (and especially split Advances!) aren't taken into consideration.

As I say, it wouldn't even be a conductor that would have to catch you - it would have to be an RPI sting, really, and I would be highly surprised if any of them even cottoned on to the fact that you shouldn't, in theory, be leaving the station during the scheduled wait. Of course, if you see RPIs you can always just approach them and ask if you are permitted to break your journey. They can't charge you just for asking!

 

[bb21]

All nice and correct in theory, but let's be realistic here, the chance of this happening is, well, zero.

Enjoy your trip.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I idly wonder if there have ever been RPIs at Ribblehead. I doubt it.

 

[E759]

Thank you FTLO for your detailed response. I did fear it would be those expensive Anytimes - ouch!

Thank you bb21 for your responses and well wishes. Is my first visit of this railway wonder!

 

[jamiearmley]

As a conductor : if your itinerary shows a wait at ribblehead, your fine to do so. If it doesn't, and you choose get off at ribblehead and then get another service: if your on the timed train you should be on, then it's a break of journey and excess. If it's not the train you are booked on its a new ticket. Personally, I always offer a choice : new ticket just for the train you are on and take your chances on the next, or whole journey , whichever suits the passenger. Based on what you have posted , with an advance clearly showing reservations on trains including a booked stop at ribblehead, you have no need to worry. Hope this helps : I recognise this forum has a wide range of opionion and experience: I am just describing how I may choose to respond if I was working those trains. Enjoy the trip : it's beautiful up there!!

 

[_toommm_]

Enjoy Ribblehead! If it's still light, follow the path down from the car park to the main road, turn right and then left just after the cattle grid to marvel at Ribblehead Viaduct!

Shame you don't have this at Ribblehead like I did yesterday!

 

[E759]

As a conductor : if your itinerary shows a wait at ribblehead, your fine to do so. If it doesn't, and you choose get off at ribblehead and then get another service: if your on the timed train you should be on, then it's a break of journey and excess. If it's not the train you are booked on its a new ticket. Personally, I always offer a choice : new ticket just for the train you are on and take your chances on the next, or whole journey , whichever suits the passenger. Based on what you have posted , with an advance clearly showing reservations on trains including a booked stop at ribblehead, you have no need to worry. Hope this helps : I recognise this forum has a wide range of opionion and experience: I am just describing how I may choose to respond if I was working those trains. Enjoy the trip : it's beautiful up there!!

Many thanks for your comments, much appreciated. I've not used Northern for anything other than short services. I have to say that every conductor I've met on Northern has been very friendly

 

[E759]

Enjoy Ribblehead! If it's still light, follow the path down from the car park to the main road, turn right and then left just after the cattle grid to marvel at Ribblehead Viaduct!

Shame you don't have this at Ribblehead like I did yesterday!

Whilst I can't predict the weather, sunset can be predicted to milli-second accuracy for 26/4/2019 The Google Street-Car has visited Ribblehead so I've been able to to do a virtual-walk for some of the route already. A really useful tool for finding bus stops and acclimatising oneself to the locale!

I only got to ride behind Tornado on Friday 15th down Wensleydale so had no chance of taking any pictures of passing steam-hauled trains Coincidentally though I'm going for a ride on the K&WVR on Tuesday 19/02/2019. I'm using the train to get to the Parsonage - apparently it's a myth that people do such things ...!

 

[alistairlees]

Enjoy Ribblehead! If it's still light, follow the path down from the car park to the main road, turn right and then left just after the cattle grid to marvel at Ribblehead Viaduct!

Shame you don't have this at Ribblehead like I did yesterday!

View attachment 59334

Whilst I appreciate you wanted the best possible vantage shot, you do appear to be standing dangerously close to the line and could have been struck by another train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst I appreciate you wanted the best possible vantage shot, you do appear to be standing dangerously close to the line and could have been struck by another train.

I was going to say, as an aside don't stand on the ramp (you aren't meant to be there; people doing this is why ramps are being progressively removed and replaced with fencing) and don't stand so close to the line.

About three feet to your left and about three feet forward would have been better. Yes, the other bloke was there, but you'd have got a decent shot standing immediately to his left.

 

[_toommm_]

Whilst I appreciate you wanted the best possible vantage shot, you do appear to be standing dangerously close to the line and could have been struck by another train.

Admittedly I was too close to the line, but the layout of the area means only one train can go over the viaduct at the time, with the steam train being cleared over at the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Admittedly I was too close to the line, but the layout of the area means only one train can go over the viaduct at the time, with the steam train being cleared over at the time.

This may be so, but you're still not allowed on the ramp. The white line clearly marks the delimitation of the area where passengers are allowed to be.

 

[philthetube]

Admittedly I was too close to the line, but the layout of the area means only one train can go over the viaduct at the time, with the steam train being cleared over at the time.

NEVER assume anything, get in the habit and one day you will get it wrong.