How can Cross country overcrowding be alleviated?

[aoa123]

Just got on 13.11 from leeds ex edinburgh to penzance. Myst admit I am surprised this is comprised of 4 carriages! Totally rammed standing all along all aisles and vestibule areas. This follows on from a similarly rammed 9 car set in the opposite direction the preceeding direction last Friday. Seems the only way I can avoid this mess is getting the 6.45am from Derby! Is this the new normal passenger loading post covid I wonder...

 

[Fyldeboy]

This is standard for XC - short but frequent service was the original plan but covid has reduced the frequency.
The plan didn't really work 20 years ago when introduced and passengers have increased since then - without a matching increase in rolling stock.

 

[Spartacus]

Just got on 13.11 from leeds ex edinburgh to penzance. Myst admit I am surprised this is comprised of 4 carriages! Totally rammed standing all along all aisles and vestibule areas. This follows on from a similarly rammed 9 car set in the opposite direction the preceeding direction last Friday. Seems the only way I can avoid this mess is getting the 6.45am from Derby! Is this the new normal passenger loading post covid I wonder...

It's 'booked' a HST, but with very limited HSTs in service (only two or three I think) it's actually a 22x now, though more usually a 5 car rather than 4 car.

 

[bib]

I was on a rammed 4 car between Leeds and Sheffield on Saturday evening, but it was much quieter either side of those stations. In contrast I was recently on one of the last EMR 222's on the same route on a weekday evening and there were probably about 10 people on the train and no-one in any of the 3 1st class carriages.

 

[trebor79]

This is standard for XC - short but frequent service was the original plan but covid has reduced the frequency.
The plan didn't really work 20 years ago when introduced and passengers have increased since then - without a matching increase in rolling stock.

Yep, regularly travelling between Bristol and Durham went from a decent comfortable service on spacious HSTs and the occassional Mk2+47 if you were really lucky. The moment the Voyagers came in every single journey was on horribly overcrowded, cramped, noisy, sweaty, smelly trains. A real step down in service provision IMO. Virgin were allowed to make a right mess of it and nothing has ever been done to reverse it. Dreadful.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Part of the issue is that the Class 22x have a very space-inefficient interior; a 3-car 170 has roughly the same number of seats as a 4-car 220 (about 200 seats per set). I've long thought XC would have been better with a fleet of 3-car 170s which would run individually at the network extremities and doubled-up in the central sections.

 

[hexagon789]

Part of the issue is that the Class 22x have a very space-inefficient interior; a 3-car 170 has roughly the same number of seats as a 4-car 220 (about 200 seats per set). I've long thought XC would have been better with a fleet of 3-car 170s which would run individually at the network extremities and doubled-up in the central sections.

Using fairly slow accelerating 100mph (170s take more than twice as long as 220s to reach 60mph) trains would require a complete timetable rewrite though.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Using fairly slow accelerating 100mph (170s take more than twice as long as 220s to reach 60mph) trains would require a complete timetable rewrite though.

Yes, that would be the issue with this. I did check the Wikipedia page for the 185s but there wouldn't be enough of them to completely replace XCs 22x fleet.

 

[peteb]

Having spent several years using (then called) virgin voyagers from Birmingham to Bristol two or three times a week I recall it was a real shock when they were introduced, how packed they were, poor seat layout and very hard to move about on many trains owing to bodies filling every available space. 15 or so years later I try to avoid cross country voyagers at all costs and use either their own 170s, FGW services south of Worcester, or Chiltern and FGW to the south (Reading) and NW Trains and Northern to get to Manchester. Slower yes but better to get a decent seat and one with a view than risk cattle trucking on a voyager at 125mph.

 

[GS250]

XC was severely compromised the moment 'Operation Princess' went live. No one can fault the ambition behind the plan but the execution was misguided to say the least. Within weeks severe overcrowding became the absolute normal and it even made the national press on several occasions. There was even talk of a semi climbdown with Virgin contemplating bringing in HST's that now sat idling away in a siding. Eventually it happened but after several years.

The problem stems from the bus mentality of which was rife at the time (and still is to some degree).

 

[Mike Machin]

These dreadful, overcrowded fume-laden, tatty, stinking antiques are the sole reason I gave-up travelling by train between the South Coast and the Midlands. My electric car is quicker, cleaner, quieter and much better for the environment than these clanking, lumbering, ancient, smoke-belching contraptions, where it is so stuffy and hot inside it's impossible to breath. Even setting foot inside one is a health hazard - it really is time they were sent for recycling.
Until such time as quicker, more frequent fully-electric trains are provided on this route, equivalent to the trains I use in Norway, I shall continue to use my car.

 

[GS250]

Using fairly slow accelerating 100mph (170s take more than twice as long as 220s to reach 60mph) trains would require a complete timetable rewrite though.

Or even, shock horror....what TPEX have done and brought in those nasty, horrible loco hauled services and maybe stick on an extra carriage or two. That's the difference between now and 2002. We have fast, reliable and fuel efficient locomotives available. Anyone work out what a 68+7 would hold passenger wise? Are they able to be upgraded to 110mph operation I wonder?

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, that would be the issue with this. I did check the Wikipedia page for the 185s but there wouldn't be enough of them to completely replace XCs 22x fleet.

185s are also 100 max and have the added drawbacks of - less seats than a 170, can't use HST/MU/SP differentials.

 

[traction22]

Just got on 13.11 from leeds ex edinburgh to penzance. Myst admit I am surprised this is comprised of 4 carriages! Totally rammed standing all along all aisles and vestibule areas. This follows on from a similarly rammed 9 car set in the opposite direction the preceeding direction last Friday. Seems the only way I can avoid this mess is getting the 6.45am from Derby! Is this the new normal passenger loading post covid I wonder...

In my opinion, the worst of the operators that I use. They tend to be late (though I understand why), are generally too small, generally with a poor frequency and are expensive.

From their point of view, why invest when the terms of the franchise are for x years. Pointless.

 

[43055]

Just got on 13.11 from leeds ex edinburgh to penzance. Myst admit I am surprised this is comprised of 4 carriages! Totally rammed standing all along all aisles and vestibule areas. This follows on from a similarly rammed 9 car set in the opposite direction the preceeding direction last Friday. Seems the only way I can avoid this mess is getting the 6.45am from Derby! Is this the new normal passenger loading post covid I wonder...

To me there does seem to be more single sets since the timetable change which is probably a result of the extensions to some services/additional services. It seems that the 1311 is now a single set with it sometimes being 4 car and others 5 car looking at the last week.

It's 'booked' a HST, but with very limited HSTs in service (only two or three I think) it's actually a 22x now, though more usually a 5 car rather than 4 car.

I think the only time that service has been a HST was on summer Fridays or Saturday. At the moment it seems to be 2 HST's out a day with weekdays being the 0611 and 0911 off Leeds southbound.

 

[Master29]

To me there does seem to be more single sets since the timetable change which is probably a result of the extensions to some services/additional services. It seems that the 1311 is now a single set with it sometimes being 4 car and others 5 car looking at the last week.


I think the only time that service has been a HST was on summer Fridays or Saturday. At the moment it seems to be 2 HST's out a day with weekdays being the 0611 and 0911 off Leeds southbound.

That explain why Laira seems to have quite a few HST's in sidings at the moment

 

[Robertj21a]

I thought all these voyagers were now 5 coach, presumably not yet?

 

[route101]

Standard Cross Country. Been treated to 8, 9 and 10 car sets of last few years. What kind of unit would be suitable for cross country? Also very expensive from South Coast to anywhere north of Reading.

 

[Mag_seven]

I thought all these voyagers were now 5 coach, presumably not yet?

No they are certainly not all 5 coaches and I am not aware of a scheme to make them all 5?

 

[AlterEgo]

No they are certainly not all 5 coaches and I am not aware of a scheme to make them all 5?

He may be thinking of the 222s on EMR.

 

[Snow1964]

Cross country seems to be worst of both worlds at moment, lack of frequency, and regular 4 or 5 coach services

Of course prior to Operation Princess, the low frequency meant decent sized trains, with at least 500 seats as per photo on link of a 12 vehicle train near Didcot (not my photo)

The Wessex Scot

Class 47/4 47834 'Fire Fly' approaches Didcot North Junction with the 08:25 Glasgow Central to Poole InterCity service, 'The Wessex Scot'. This locomotive was delivered from Crewe Works as D1656 in February 1965, becomming 47072 under the TOPS re-numbering in 1974 and 47609 in April 1984 when...

www.flickr.com

 

[Rich McLean]

Standard Cross Country. Been treated to 8, 9 and 10 car sets of last few years. What kind of unit would be suitable for cross country? Also very expensive from South Coast to anywhere north of Reading.

I would say a mixture of 5 and 9 coach sets, with 9 car sets mainly on Manchester workings mixed in with some 5 cars solo, with the 5 cars mainly on NE-SW, doubled up through the core. Some NE-SW can be 9 or 10 car throughout on key trains, and some diagrams can be 5 car where 9 coaches is not warranted.

The key will be matching capacity with demand without carrying fresh air on a 9 or 10 car for large parts of their diagrams.

 

[hexagon789]

I thought all these voyagers were now 5 coach, presumably not yet?

220s are all 4-car, 221s are mostly 5 but there are a few 4-car.

The XC Voyager fleet is:

34 four-car 220s
4 four-car 221s
20 five-car 221s

 

[Mogz]

Back to business as usual then! I’ve been saying for years that XC is packed to the gills with stock that is too short.

 

[sprinterguy]

What kind of unit would be suitable for cross country?

Class 810s, given that they've been designed to be able to match the abilities of the comparable Meridians on diesel power and can make use of electric power from the overheads where available.

I'd like to see a fleet of approx. thirty 5-car and thirty 7-car units, but pragmatically, even if total fleet replacement was an option on the table, I could see that getting whittled down to a uniform 60 x 5-car unit fleet unfortunately.

 

[dk1]

I thought all these voyagers were now 5 coach, presumably not yet?

Are you confusing XC with EMR?

 

[sprinterguy]

Of course prior to Operation Princess, the low frequency meant decent sized trains, with at least 500 seats as per photo on link of a 12 vehicle train near Didcot (not my photo)

The Wessex Scot

Class 47/4 47834 'Fire Fly' approaches Didcot North Junction with the 08:25 Glasgow Central to Poole InterCity service, 'The Wessex Scot'. This locomotive was delivered from Crewe Works as D1656 in February 1965, becomming 47072 under the TOPS re-numbering in 1974 and 47609 in April 1984 when...

www.flickr.com

Though the standard formations from 1991 until Operation Princess were 7 x mark 2s or mark 3s.

Which doesn't excuse the past twenty years of short, dinky diesel units, mind you.

 

[Mogz]

Class 810s, given that they've been designed to be able to match the abilities of the comparable Meridians on diesel power and can make use of electric power from the overheads where available.

I'd like to see a fleet of approx. thirty 5-car and thirty 7-car units, but pragmatically, even if total fleet replacement was an option on the table, I could see that getting whittled down to a uniform 60 x 5-car unit fleet unfortunately.

9 car IETs would be nice.

Given most of the doubled up units have been generously filled I’m sure they wouldn’t be carting around fresh air.

Also, they wouldn’t be running diesel under the wires as many XC services do.

Add to that a better table to airline seat ratio, better legroom and the possibility of a proper buffet (if the LNER layout is used) I’m sure they would be preferred.

But the country has no money left so…

 

[traction22]

9 car IETs would be nice.

Given most of the doubled up units have been generously filled I’m sure they wouldn’t be carting around fresh air.

Also, they wouldn’t be running diesel under the wires as many XC services do.

Add to that a better table to airline seat ratio, better legroom and the possibility of a proper buffet (if the LNER layout is used) I’m sure they would be preferred.

But the country has no money left so…

But its a private operator that makes profits, so the country shouldn't be paying.

 

[trebor79]

9 car IETs would be nice.

Nah, get some FLIRTS in. All the seat bases have collapsed already on the IETs which means your day on a metal support bar. Horrible.