How could a national Mobility as a Service be implemented?

[squizzler]

With the need to rebuild rail and bus usage, Mobility as as Service (MaaS) offers a frictionless way to access transport services, rent vehicles on demand, and facilitate customers in avoiding the expense of car ownership. How would you implement Mobility as a Service (MaaS) across the entirety of Great Britain?

There are already various nations who are striking out on their own with a MaaS. The Netherlands have contracted Siemens to build theirs. But this is not the only option available. In many instances MaaS is being launched at a city level. And Norwegian Railways are rolling out one they hope to cover all of Scandinavia. Even in the UK, West Yorkshire has investigated setting up their own and trials of some technologies done with Keighley Bus co.

In GB, would it even be desirable to have a nationwide MaaS or would it be better starting with Sub-National Transport Bodies such as Transport for London or Transport for the North, and then perhaps having a federal approach where each reciprocates with interoperable systems to allow journeys across borders? Or would it be better to do a moonshot of a national system as the Netherlands is doing?

Also, does normal rail and bus travel need to be organised differently to allow it to be part of a MaaS? I am assuming that the proposed fares reform for National Rail is partially designed to make it easier to integrate with MaaS (since the idea has been around for years, but information and communication technologies are only now beginning to make it truly practical), but could be wrong. Maybe we will see new entrants in the transport field if, for instance, a new bus operator doesn't need to have a network, or need to market their service, but can just provide a useful route that the MaaS can utilise? Like how creative people can sell stuff on Etsy or Ebay without the need for retail premises.

How much additional growth could MaaS bring to the Great Britain transport scene? The rail industry needs to try everything to get its growth back on track, and MaaS is in my opinion a very promising avenue to explore. As it is a new technology I think several implementations should be tried to see what works best. We should soon have data from other European countries, but the Great Britain is a unique transport scene in many ways and EU experience needs to be applied with discretion. It is bigger and more diverse than Switzerland and the Netherlands and in my opinion dong it all in one go would be too ambitious. There are three nations and I think each should be free to do their own thing, with interoperability or reciprocal travel arrangements to allow for cross border trips. For England, I suggest the Sub-National Transport Bodies (STB) are the correct choice to deliver MaaS because the Northeast and Cornish Peninsular will have different needs from Greater London. As the best practices emerge the STB's MaaS should seek to become a tighter federation with a nationally consistent level of service. I am interested to hear how others think it should be done!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say MaaS is a total gimmick as a concept. We just need to implement European concepts onto our transport systems using the traditional modes.

That is:
- Fully integrated, fully mode- and operator-agnostic ticketing in cities
- Fully integrated timetables with connections the assumption and infrastructure designed for quality connections and for journeys people want to make
- Subsidy of fares to keep them reasonable (so no outrageously high fares like WCML Anytimes)
- At the local end, quality cycling and cycle storage facilities, plus the hire schemes
- Legalise e-scooters under the same legal framework as e-bikes

None of this requires any gimmickry, apps or any other such stuff - it's good, solid, proven European transport planning.

 

[squizzler]

I agree that MaaS is not a substitute for getting the basics right, and certainly not a way of avoiding much needed investment in the 'hard' infrastructure. Nonetheless, it can surely be no coincidence that the countries that are already enjoy high quality public transport Netherlands, Scandinavia, Switzerland - are the ones who are most rapidly adopting MaaS.

I wonder if your apparent hostility to the concept stems from the British experience of other IT based transport concerns such as Uber, Deliveroo, and the various 'dockless' bike hire firms? These have tended to be frothy businesses that I would agree add little of value, and are frequently based on 'gig economy' and other dubious labour practices.

I feel what is telling is that enlightened countries are rolling out MaaS through their National transport concerns or municipalities. They will hopefully thus be built around the values of public service rather than silicon valley 'disruption' theories, and are intended to strengthen the public transport in the marketplace rather than to replace it. Of course, whether the current UK government would allow our STBs to launch MaaS platforms rather than ensure sympathetic private business get the contract (as per Covid Track and Trace) is another matter!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that MaaS is not a substitute for getting the basics right, and certainly not a way of avoiding much needed investment in the 'hard' infrastructure. Nonetheless, it can surely be no coincidence that the countries that are already enjoy high quality public transport Netherlands, Scandinavia, Switzerland - are the ones who are most rapidly adopting MaaS.

I wonder if your apparent hostility to the concept stems from the British experience of other IT based transport concerns such as Uber, Deliveroo, and the various 'dockless' bike hire firms? These have tended to be frothy businesses that I would agree add little of value, and are frequently based on 'gig economy' and other dubious labour practices.

I feel what is telling is that enlightened countries are rolling out MaaS through their National transport concerns or municipalities. They will hopefully thus be built around the values of public service rather than silicon valley 'disruption' theories, and are intended to strengthen the public transport in the marketplace rather than to replace it. Of course, whether the current UK government would allow our STBs to launch MaaS platforms rather than ensure sympathetic private business get the contract (as per Covid Track and Trace) is another matter!

Out of interest, what do you actually see MaaS delivering which would be of genuine value over tapping in on the bus with your contactless card and booking a long-distance train ticket on your phone?

No, my opposition is not based on opposition to Uber and Deliveroo - the former provided useful disruption to the market (I don't use it, but I do use a local firm which has an Uber style app basically as a result of Uber existing) and the latter (and the Eats bit of Uber which is slightly better) I do use. It's OT but I'm not opposed to flexible working, and I'd rather see elements of job security moved to the State (e.g. via UBI and similar concepts) to allow for more of it - why should one have to do the same job all week? That's for another thread, though.

If we can break it down to the benefits, perhaps some of them would be better delivered individually rather than a large monolithic IT platform that I fear would go the way of other large monolithic IT platforms and just be a waste of money in a time when money is scarce - remember "Transport Direct"?

Or put differently, if it was worth doing wouldn't someone already have done it commercially?

 

[squizzler]

Out of interest, what do you actually see MaaS delivering which would be of genuine value over tapping in on the bus with your contactless card and booking a long-distance train ticket on your phone?

If you went the full monty the service is subscription based and for your set fee you get access to the set amount of transport 'service', in a way that consumers are familiar with their mobile phone subscription 'plans'. It is not fixed to public transport but also includes access to various motor vehicles (perhaps for moving chattels etc) and bicycles (last mile in destination town).

Other than that, there is the ease of use of doing your journey planning online and being able to just click the 'buy now' button rather than using google maps or traveline and then having to go through the operator's website to actually book. The idea is to threaten car ownership by making transport as easy to use as a car, and allowing people access to an appropriate vehicle anytime they do need one.

Or put differently, if it was worth doing wouldn't someone already have done it commercially?

Like the road network or the NHS?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you went the full monty the service is subscription based and for your set fee you get access to the set amount of transport 'service', in a way that consumers are familiar with their mobile phone subscription 'plans'. It is not fixed to public transport but also includes access to various motor vehicles (perhaps for moving chattels etc) and bicycles (last mile in destination town).

So a BahnCard 100 or even a Generalabonnement? Yes please! Though that would require whacking additional subsidy to make the price anything like reasonable. I would however do this in the conventional manner, though.

Other than that, there is the ease of use of doing your journey planning online and being able to just click the 'buy now' button rather than using google maps or traveline and then having to go through the operator's website to actually book. The idea is to threaten car ownership by making transport as easy to use as a car, and allowing people access to an appropriate vehicle anytime they do need one.

It's telling that nobody has done that commercially, as it wouldn't be an exceptionally hard thing to do - a kid could write that in their bedroom in a couple of weeks. It's little more than what is offered by the likes of Opodo, Expedia etc - just primarily for domestic rather than international travel.

Like the road network or the NHS?

Roads are a bit different, they are infrastructure rather than operational, and similarly Network Rail is in public hands. Private healthcare has indeed, at a price, become available commercially to work around most of the issues in the NHS if you wish to pay for it, either as insurance or up-front, and is probably the most common corporate benefit.

 

[HSTEd]

I've long been intrigued by the conception of a "National Metro", in order words, all of GB (or GB+NI potentially) being covered with a service density that would normally be associated with a major city.

However such a system would be politically impossible due to complaints from devolved institutions who want to do their own thing, and from the substantial subsidies and infrastructure construction required to make it work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've long been intrigued by the conception of a "National Metro", in order words, all of GB (or GB+NI potentially) being covered with a service density that would normally be associated with a major city.

To keep it feasible that isn't going to mean 10 minute frequency on the Conwy Valley. However I certainly do think you can apply city connectivity principles in rural areas, and indeed I particularly like the way Switzerland has its rural S-Bahn services - OK, hourly rather than every few minutes, but the same concepts of numbered lines, simplicity and connectivity.

However, that concept (which is a kind of Takt) doesn't require a fancy mobile app or subscription model. It's a well-proven European operational model, and can be seen in action in Switzerland.

As for giving places decent bus services that don't have them, that just requires more money. Getting bus services in place is very, very easy; if I had the money I could arrange one to start in 56 days' time (and that is artificial) after a short phone call with a bus company and my signature on a contract to fund it.

 

[HSTEd]

To keep it feasible that isn't going to mean 10 minute frequency on the Conwy Valley. However I certainly do think you can apply city connectivity principles in rural areas, and indeed I particularly like the way Switzerland has its rural S-Bahn services - OK, hourly rather than every few minutes, but the same concepts of numbered lines, simplicity and connectivity.

Well I have repeatedly brought up the idea of a national bus numbering scheme to aid in integration, and constantly get laughed at for it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I have repeatedly brought up the idea of a national bus numbering scheme to aid in integration, and constantly get laughed at for it!

The problem with that is that you end up with numbers in the thousands or tens of thousands. In reality provided you avoid overlaps local systems are fine.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

It is good to try to avoid travelling where possible, I achieved this when I retired, thanks to luck, judgement and covid. I live on the edge of a small town, food stores, doctors, chemist nearby. Train station nearby too. More facilities in the town centre a short cycle ride away,much faster than the bus

Travel? Cycling just for fun mostly

 

[RT4038]

Well I have repeatedly brought up the idea of a national bus numbering scheme to aid in integration, and constantly get laughed at for it!

Not sure what a 'national bus numbering scheme' has to do with it? @Bletchleyite mentions numbered lines [and virtually all bus routes are like this already, so it is really the train services] - no mention of every line having a different number!

Roads are a bit different, they are infrastructure rather than operational, and similarly Network Rail is in public hands. Private healthcare has indeed, at a price, become available commercially to work around most of the issues in the NHS if you wish to pay for it, either as insurance or up-front, and is probably the most common corporate benefit.

If the NHS had not been set up I am sure that there would be a pretty comprehensive commercial health care system available. Maybe not everyone would be able to afford everything, and dealing with that was the political intervention at the time. Clearly with the NHS in place, the commercial offer has been practically restricted to what the market is prepared to pay extra for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the NHS had not been set up I am sure that there would be a pretty comprehensive commercial health care system available. Maybe not everyone would be able to afford everything, and dealing with that was the political intervention at the time. Clearly with the NHS in place, the commercial offer has been practically restricted to what the market is prepared to pay extra for.

Indeed. As the US doesn't have an NHS, you only have to look there to see what there would be. I'd rather the NHS, but the point is that it would be delivered commercially absent any statutory delivery.

 

[HSTEd]

I think this just boils down to bein willing to spend the money.

I'm not convinced bus services can really form the core infrastructure because they are so easily taken away.

Will people, having been burned with constant withdrawals of promised bus services, really be willing to plan their lives around bus services that might be withdrawn at a handful o fweeks notice when political priorities change or the councillors want some money for some other bauble scheme?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this just boils down to bein willing to spend the money.

I'm not convinced bus services can really form the core infrastructure because they are so easily taken away.

Will people, having been burned with constant withdrawals of promised bus services, really be willing to plan their lives around bus services that might be withdrawn at a handful o fweeks notice when political priorities change or the councillors want some money for some other bauble scheme?

Or otherwise put - a fancy mobile app doesn't even come close to fixing the fundamental problems with the actual transport system, and is rather akin to polishing a turd.

 

[RT4038]

I think this just boils down to bein willing to spend the money.

I'm not convinced bus services can really form the core infrastructure because they are so easily taken away.

Will people, having been burned with constant withdrawals of promised bus services, really be willing to plan their lives around bus services that might be withdrawn at a handful o fweeks notice when political priorities change or the councillors want some money for some other bauble scheme?

If the funding and operation of bus services were put in the same legislative framework as rail services then they would not be so easily taken away.

Conversely, if the funding and operation of rail services were changed to a something similar to bus services (Inter City routes to operate commercially, and regional services at the funding whim of local authorities), I suspect that the fabled stability of rail services would soon disappear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Conversely, if the funding and operation of rail services were changed to a something similar to bus services (Inter City routes to operate commercially, and regional services at the funding whim of local authorities), I suspect that the fabled stability of rail services would soon disappear.

Exactly as is happening in Germany - a line quietly fizzles out with nichts bestellt (nothing ordered), just like a bus route. Much harder, of course, to get it back.

 

[HSTEd]

Exactly as is happening in Germany - a line quietly fizzles out with nichts bestellt (nothing ordered), just like a bus route. Much harder, of course, to get it back.

Perhaps, but the likes of trolleybuses have lower marginal operating costs and won't be rerouted on a whim, because they can't be.

I think we also have the problem that non segregated buses are strictly worse than cars in pretty much all ways.
We would need a large busway system to make up for this problem before it changes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We would need a large busway system to make up for this problem before it changes.

You don't need busways, what you need is to design bus lanes and traffic light overtakes* properly. Only takes a trip to Germany or the Netherlands to see how that works. The key is that you design for the principle of "the bus does not stop unless it wants to". You also speed up with off-bus ticketing (which I guess feeds back into the MaaS idea, or indeed simple contactless tap-in-and-out payment).

* The UK needs a change in the law to allow buses to operate on tram signals, which would allow these to be done without a traffic island as is presently needed. Means they are much easier and cheaper to provide.

 

[RT4038]

Perhaps, but the likes of trolleybuses have lower marginal operating costs and won't be rerouted on a whim, because they can't be.

I think we also have the problem that non segregated buses are strictly worse than cars in pretty much all ways.
We would need a large busway system to make up for this problem before it changes.

Not sure how bus segregation would change much on a journey from say, Exeter to Bude?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure how bus segregation would change much on a journey from say, Exeter to Bude?

Bus segregation is largely unnecessary in any setting (other than really busy city roads) if you set up your junctions and overtakes etc so that the bus takes absolute priority.

 

[HSTEd]

Not sure how bus segregation would change much on a journey from say, Exeter to Bude?

Well unless the bus can teleport, it can't get out of central Exeter instantaneously.

Also current buses to Bude from Exeter are painfully slow because they don't use the A30

 

[RT4038]

Well unless the bus can teleport, it can't get out of central Exeter instantaneously.

Also current buses to Bude from Exeter are painfully slow because they don't use the A30

In comparison to the overall journey time, the delay in departure from central Exeter is fairly insignificant, certainly not worth the cost of segregation. Some measures referred to by @Bletchleyite would likely make improvements. Trains didn't depart Exeter Central in the direction of Bude exactly instantaneously either.

As has been referred to already, the application of funds could resolve issues such as the current route not following the A30 (i.e. either more bus routes, so each only has to serve fewer places and/or the construction of proper bus stops on main roads). A railway line serves much fewer stops than most rural bus routes.

 

[HSTEd]

As has been referred to already, the application of funds could resolve issues such as the current route not following the A30 (i.e. either more bus routes, so each only has to serve fewer places and/or the construction of proper bus stops on main roads). A railway line serves much fewer stops than most rural bus routes.

I recall George Monbiot proposed simply running many many many coaches an hour in each direction down all our motorways at some point in the past......

I have some sympathy with the concept.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I recall George Monbiot proposed simply running many many many coaches an hour in each direction down all our motorways at some point in the past......

I have some sympathy with the concept.

He also refers to the Coachway concept, of which there are a few (MK and High Wycombe being notable ones, and Perth Broxden sort of is).

 

[HSTEd]

He also refers to the Coachway concept, of which there are a few (MK and High Wycombe being notable ones, and Perth Broxden sort of is).

I think the ultimate objective is to reduce waiting times to the point that travel along the motorway network on a coach averages the speed of a coach on the motorway network, which is up to 60mph.

 

[squizzler]

If we can break it down to the benefits, perhaps some of them would be better delivered individually rather than a large monolithic IT platform that I fear would go the way of other large monolithic IT platforms and just be a waste of money in a time when money is scarce - remember "Transport Direct"?

Is it this?

It's telling that nobody has done that commercially, as it wouldn't be an exceptionally hard thing to do - a kid could write that in their bedroom in a couple of weeks. It's little more than what is offered by the likes of Opodo, Expedia etc - just primarily for domestic rather than international travel.

Or this? It cannot be both so easy that a child could do it and an over ambitions project for a large IT concern at the same time, unless we are talking about some sort of Shrodinger's Cat type scenario. Show me a child who could produce a system over a 'couple of weeks'.

Indeed. As the US doesn't have an NHS, you only have to look there to see what there would be. I'd rather the NHS, but the point is that it would be delivered commercially absent any statutory delivery.

You bring up an interesting prospect here, whether the system should be provided by some random IT 'startup' or if it should be rolled out by a publicly owned company. I think the public have had enough of IT firms for which they and their data are the actual product, and a public service company would be address the concerns. At least the data would be under public ownership. It would be invaluable for planning service improvements and, if suitably anonymised, could also be available to all for free under a so-called 'open data' scheme or, subject to suitable debate, licensed to appropriate commercial entities to cover costs.

Will people, having been burned with constant withdrawals of promised bus services, really be willing to plan their lives around bus services that might be withdrawn at a handful o fweeks notice when political priorities change or the councillors want some money for some other bauble scheme?

I agree that customer confidence in bus connectivity is important, but with a MaaS system in place it does not matter if the routes change frequently, since the system will tell passengers where and when they need to catch their bus this week. The extreme version of this is a bus on demand type service (of perhaps better thought of as a large, shared taxi) which routes in realtime to where passengers have hailed a ride. This would be possible in a Maas system if the latter were clever enough, and might be an option in deep rural areas. Nonetheless I actually (and probably irrationally) like the certainty of my traditional timetabled fixed routed bus service and don't think the clock face bus service is in danger of disappearing in urban and suburban environments, or longer distance town connections in rural areas.

Nonetheless in the post pandemic scene the rail industry is expecting a shift from commuting to leisure travel. I think MaaS will really come into its own in this market as leisure journeys will often be one-offs taking place in unfamiliar parts of the country. This is where I would probably feel myself a little outside my comfort zone and MaaS will provide reassurance to use the transport system. And if the computer recommended a rental car to complete my journey I will feel less bad about not trying to use sustainable transport on that occasion!

 

[telstarbox]

For MaaS to become viable you would need a substantial number of car owners in suburban and rural areas to give up their vehicles and trust that an on-demand vehicle (possibly shared, probably driverless) will be available to cover their chosen journeys.

High frequency buses and trains work well for established corridors of demand where there is a constraint on car use (congestion, expensive parking, or the productivity benefit of intercity travel). For the more fiddly "long tail" of trips between suburbs or rural villages the car is typically more convenient at the moment. I can see MaaS taking off in the next 15-20 years though as the technology matures.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it this?

Or this? It cannot be both so easy that a child could do it and an over ambitions project for a large IT concern at the same time, unless we are talking about some sort of Shrodinger's Cat type scenario. Show me a child who could produce a system over a 'couple of weeks'.

I was referring to two slightly different things - "uber-MaaS" and a journey planner that interfaces with a few ticket selling systems like Opodo etc. I was exaggerating a bit over the kid's bedroom, but the former is a rather bigger thing than the latter.

You bring up an interesting prospect here, whether the system should be provided by some random IT 'startup' or if it should be rolled out by a publicly owned company. I think the public have had enough of IT firms for which they and their data are the actual product, and a public service company would be address the concerns.

So you're going to found a company, recruit and train staff etc for this? That's going to cost you...

At least the data would be under public ownership. It would be invaluable for planning service improvements and, if suitably anonymised, could also be available to all for free under a so-called 'open data' scheme or, subject to suitable debate, licensed to appropriate commercial entities to cover costs.

That of course can be part of any contract, it doesn't require full public ownership and operation.

I agree that customer confidence in bus connectivity is important, but with a MaaS system in place it does not matter if the routes change frequently, since the system will tell passengers where and when they need to catch their bus this week.

I think that's Utopian and impractical. Let's say you've got a daily commuter. Are they going to be happy booking their travel in advance each time and arriving home/at work at totally different times? See the compulsory reservations threads for a very strong representation on why that wouldn't work.

The extreme version of this is a bus on demand type service (of perhaps better thought of as a large, shared taxi) which routes in realtime to where passengers have hailed a ride. This would be possible in a Maas system if the latter were clever enough, and might be an option in deep rural areas.

The problem with "dial a ride" type services is that they require vehicles to be kept spare to meet demand, or you have to accept long waiting times (which people won't). So to me the only practical way to do this is to do a deal with a large taxi firm to "do it on the side", similar to the way Uber uses its taxi drivers to deliver food as well. That requires there to be an established large taxi firm (in rural areas, there usually isn't one - normally, Bob, Ron and Jim have their own taxi and everyone knows their mobile numbers). If you have to set something up specifically for it it becomes spectacularly expensive.

It just about works in the context of "every Tuesday, we'll run a shopper's bus to Littletown and back from all the villages in West Nothingshire, book your journey in advance and we'll work out a route to pick you up and drop you off and let you know the exact time an hour or so beforehand", but that's rather different from an urban area and doesn't do anything at all to compete with the car. Experiments, funded I think by Mercedes (as they make vehicles for it) are going on in MK using Vito vans under the "ViaVan" brand, and it's just acting like a highly subsidised taxi service because in practice journeys don't join up that way.

Nonetheless I actually (and probably irrationally) like the certainty of my traditional timetabled fixed routed bus service and don't think the clock face bus service is in danger of disappearing in urban and suburban environments, or longer distance town connections in rural areas.

Takt, done properly (including the connectional bit) is very rational. Much more rational than most of this blue-sky stuff. Yes, you might need other stuff to link to it, but the basic idea of having a fixed frequency pattern (you have to pick ONE of 120/60/30/15/5, 120/60/30/10/5 OR 120/60/20/10/5 (or the useless 120/60/12/6 you'd be stuck with in Greater Manchester due to Metrolink penny pinching) - 3 per hour and 2 per hour are incompatible, as are 4 and 6 per hour, something which seems to escape most UK operations and planners) and making it all connect up by arriving at a key node at the same time is proven and highly effective.

Nonetheless in the post pandemic scene the rail industry is expecting a shift from commuting to leisure travel. I think MaaS will really come into its own in this market as leisure journeys will often be one-offs taking place in unfamiliar parts of the country. This is where I would probably feel myself a little outside my comfort zone and MaaS will provide reassurance to use the transport system. And if the computer recommended a rental car to complete my journey I will feel less bad about not trying to use sustainable transport on that occasion!

FWIW I have found that journey planners were the "killer app" that enabled that - and the private sector has delivered an excellent one - Google Maps. It wouldn't take much to upgrade that to cover quite a lot more - include fare calculation and local taxi firm numbers/coverage areas, I suppose. But is that the full thing you envisage?

To be fair, that's one reason I've been pushing for specific ideas rather than the term "MaaS", which could literally mean anything. A taxi company offers mobility as a service, even a traditional one where you phone up and only cash is accepted, so there is a huge range of possible concepts, some sensible, some utterly madcap.

 

[RT4038]

I was referring to two slightly different things - "uber-MaaS" and a journey planner that interfaces with a few ticket selling systems like Opodo etc. I was exaggerating a bit over the kid's bedroom, but the former is a rather bigger thing than the latter.

I think you are under-estimating the work required to set this up satisfactorily in the UK.