Glenn1969
Established Member
Leeds East approach is of course one of the network bottlenecks. Trouble is I don't think they are going to do anything about it
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How could the eastern approach to Leeds be improved?
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What would you do?
Glenn1969
Established Member
I think it needs 4 tracking to increase capacity but know space is tight and it would be expensive which is probably why nothing has happened
A 2 track railway where everything does roughly the same speed / stopping patterns can easily take 15-20 trains an hour. The issue is the different types of services and those that stop at the local stations. The answer, surely, is to put extra tracks at those stations?
Glenn1969
Established Member
Yes you are probably right
D6130
Established Member
Absolutely....and I think that an obvious first step would be to reinstate the through lines at Cross Gates to allow local services to be overtaken.
That would delay the local services. You need to have longer loops through at least two stations, and I’m willing to bet that’s being looked at.
Glenn1969
Established Member
WY are also proposing a new Parkway station in East Leeds. It may need 4 tracking as far as Micklefield if there is room because these local stations are pretty close together
None of this will be cheap.
Rearrange train services at local stops so they are delivered by the fastest accelerating trains on the rail network
Electrify to Cross Gates so that Leeds bound bi-mode local trains can take advantage of electrification
Skipstopping local trains
Consider moving/expanding Micklefield to east of Micklefield junction on one of the branches
Additional tracks once the viaduct east of Leeds ends
Close some of the local stations and replace the lost connectivity with a parallel mass transit network (or the inevitable fast buses when someone realises that this is quite expensive and Leeds has voted for the wrong party again)
Transition faster services towards HS2 at the earliest possible opportunity east out of Leeds using flying junctions
Divert the Castleford line so that trains terminate differently (either parallel to the proposed HS2 or an eastern approach) at Leeds station enabling more flexible throughput through 15/16 and a new 13-14 link.
Rearrange train services at local stops so they are delivered by the fastest accelerating trains on the rail network
Electrify to Cross Gates so that Leeds bound bi-mode local trains can take advantage of electrification
Skipstopping local trains
Consider moving/expanding Micklefield to east of Micklefield junction on one of the branches
Additional tracks once the viaduct east of Leeds ends
Close some of the local stations and replace the lost connectivity with a parallel mass transit network (or the inevitable fast buses when someone realises that this is quite expensive and Leeds has voted for the wrong party again)
Transition faster services towards HS2 at the earliest possible opportunity east out of Leeds using flying junctions
Divert the Castleford line so that trains terminate differently (either parallel to the proposed HS2 or an eastern approach) at Leeds station enabling more flexible throughput through 15/16 and a new 13-14 link.
YorksLad12
Established Member
One of the issues is that no-one's realy made up their minds the last 10 years what they want. First it was East Leeds Parkway near Micklefield/the A1 to provide a Park & Ride station and reduce platform pressures at Leeds. Then it was Thorpe Park instead. Then it was moving Garforth's platforms a few hundred metres eastwards so that East Garforth could close.
You'd have hoped there would be a firm plan with TRU imminent but there doesn't seem to be much beyond aspirations and a notion that Netrork Rail and the operators will "make it so" if WYCA/TfN wish it to be.
(FWIW I'd go with the Garforth suggestion and four-track from Marsh Lane to Micklefield, fast lines in the middle, no skip-stop services. Leeds to Marsh Lane is an expensive change; worry about that later.)
Ideally, there’d be 4 tracks from Leeds station all the way to just before Garforth. This means the stopper and fast could leave LDS at about the same time, with the stopper arriving into Garforth 3 minutes after the fast has been through. This works well with Thorpe Park (I’m hoping it has 4 track provision when opened) in terms of timings. However, 2 tracks may be enough all the way if the Garforth stations are merged (2 4 car platforms below Bar Lane?). That being said, I’ve wondered about a 4 track alignment from Thorpe Park, with a tram or very frequent stop service running in from there to Leeds city centre.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
4 tracking would be relatively easy between Neville Hill depot through Cross Gates and slightly shy of Garforth but Garforth itself would need a massive rebuild as would the viaduct between Leeds station and Richmond Hill Tunnel.
YorksLad12
Established Member
Aye. Just looking at Google I notice that the car park at Garforth has been redone. You'd have to take out all of the new spots east of the Disabled Parking bays at least. If we then shift Garforth eastwards we'd have to run the platforms down the length of the car park (fine) but entry and exit would be a bit tight at the north-western end where the existing station buildings are. That would put the eastern ends of the platforms one-quarter of the distance to East Garforth.
For example, Cross Gates and Thorpe Park - Garforth-Micklefield would be more difficult.
A long distance google maps survey shows there isn't actually much in the way of adding an extra pair of tracks east of the station - there could even be an extra local station on the east side of the city centre. But I suspect the reality is a lot more complicated
Halifaxlad
Established Member
Im pretty sure this has already been discussed elsewhere in another thread but anyway.
I would construct a new line from Neville Hill under Halton (in a tunnel) before coming out and joining HS2 alongside the M1. So that all fast services could be taken off it to allow a 15 miniute frequency (or less) service pattern.
I would also Move Garforth Westwards with access off Barwick Rd (Slightly closer to the high street) so that it isn't as close to East Garforth.
As well a closing the following foot crossings.
Barrowby Lane = suitable for an underpass (I reckon)
Barrowby Foot = suitable for an underpass although I would close it anyway if it hasn't been done already.
Peckfield = suitable for an underpass (I reckon)
Then you would have no foot crossings between Micklefield and Leeds!
Regardless as to the four tracking the viaduct East of Leeds I would certainly straighten it out! To the East of the Viaduct I would realign the line adjacent to Railway St , for some no-doubt historical reason the line straightens out here where it could be one single curve!
On a sperate note: I would use the freed up capacity to build another station at Osmondthorpe.
Oh and I would electrify it!
I would construct a new line from Neville Hill under Halton (in a tunnel) before coming out and joining HS2 alongside the M1. So that all fast services could be taken off it to allow a 15 miniute frequency (or less) service pattern.
I would also Move Garforth Westwards with access off Barwick Rd (Slightly closer to the high street) so that it isn't as close to East Garforth.
As well a closing the following foot crossings.
Barrowby Lane = suitable for an underpass (I reckon)
Barrowby Foot = suitable for an underpass although I would close it anyway if it hasn't been done already.
Peckfield = suitable for an underpass (I reckon)
Then you would have no foot crossings between Micklefield and Leeds!
Regardless as to the four tracking the viaduct East of Leeds I would certainly straighten it out! To the East of the Viaduct I would realign the line adjacent to Railway St , for some no-doubt historical reason the line straightens out here where it could be one single curve!
On a sperate note: I would use the freed up capacity to build another station at Osmondthorpe.
Oh and I would electrify it!
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YorksLad12
Established Member
Moving Garforth *west*wards would move it closer to the proposed Thorpe Park station. You'd have three stations within four minutes. Moving it *east*wards with the same access from Aberford Road plus foot access from Bar Lane would allow East Garforth to be closed.
The Leeds-Marsh Lane viaduct curve is neither here nor there; you'd save nothing for the cost. At the Marsh lane end it curves because that's where the station was; original platforms to the north, later through platforms to the south.
Playing devils advocate but is it not the service pattern that is the issue more so than the physical route (which admittedly still has issues). Is there a need for so many services each hour?
Based on pre-covid services I question the following services:-
Does TPE really need 2 services to Newcastle each hour?
Does Northern really need a stopper and an express each hour?
Get rid of one of the Newcastle services and either start the Blackpool service from Leeds or make this the all stops inc Church Fenton from York to Leeds and that’s 2 paths immediately freed up (which some people would no doubt suggest immediately filling with London services or something else equally pointless because Micklefield is an untapped market).
I’d also lose both Garforth stations and rebuild one joint station between the current two accessing it from GRF’s current car park and a footpath from EGF. This keeps the number of stops down once Thorpe Park opens. 4 tracking is a possibility for the majority of the route between Neville Hill and Micklefield but some of the ideas for either widening or straightening out the viaduct east of Leeds station is at best laughable. There is no room to do either without major line closures and huge demolitions for minimal benefit.
Based on pre-covid services I question the following services:-
Does TPE really need 2 services to Newcastle each hour?
Does Northern really need a stopper and an express each hour?
Get rid of one of the Newcastle services and either start the Blackpool service from Leeds or make this the all stops inc Church Fenton from York to Leeds and that’s 2 paths immediately freed up (which some people would no doubt suggest immediately filling with London services or something else equally pointless because Micklefield is an untapped market).
I’d also lose both Garforth stations and rebuild one joint station between the current two accessing it from GRF’s current car park and a footpath from EGF. This keeps the number of stops down once Thorpe Park opens. 4 tracking is a possibility for the majority of the route between Neville Hill and Micklefield but some of the ideas for either widening or straightening out the viaduct east of Leeds station is at best laughable. There is no room to do either without major line closures and huge demolitions for minimal benefit.
Halifaxlad
Established Member
If Garforth was moved Westwards the distance between it and Thorpe Park would still be greater than the distance between Thorpe Park and Crossgates.
I can see a lot of housing in years to come South East of East Garforth so it may be prudent to move it Eastwards.
As for four tracking I believe the line was slewed to raise the line speed when it was reduced to two tracks, as what done with the Transpennine route between Huddersfield and Manchester.
I can see a lot of housing in years to come South East of East Garforth so it may be prudent to move it Eastwards.
As for four tracking I believe the line was slewed to raise the line speed when it was reduced to two tracks, as what done with the Transpennine route between Huddersfield and Manchester.
In that case go for the option of merging the two Garforth stations as myself and @YorksLad12 proposed (and we probably proposed it last time and the time before...) and then ’if’ a station is required to the west of Garforth as Thorpe Park cannot accommodate any extra park and ride traffic (although I suspect that the whole project is based around new housing and retail developments in the area and has already been factored in) then consider the options at the planning stage of the new houses although I‘m sure Thorpe Park will be built with expansion in mind.
As I mentioned up thread, capacity can be released without the need for major infrastructure projects (ie rebuilding a major city centre viaduct to free up next to nothing). Also additional stations do not free up that finite capacity available between Leeds & Neville Hill. It’s down to the TOC’s to say ‘d’ya know what, we need to run less but longer trains to make things more reliable’. TPE are trying to run a metro service on a mainline which is the crux of the problem all the way from Manchester to York.
I‘ve said it before but I believe that the main problem is the service pattern.
YorksLad12
Established Member
I see where you're coming from, but the approach for the last 40 years has been for more services. It's cheaper to sweat the assets (trains) than build new infrastructure (and longer trains). That said I always thought five TPE per hour between Leeds, Huddersfield and a Manchester station was overkill; we had 5 x 3-car trains per hour wheras lengthening each unit by one car would have given 16 carriages instead of 15. Now they're using 802s and Mk5as you could cut back without degrading the service.
But then, yes, someone else will see a free path and try to claim it, so you'd be back where you started, trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot. XC apparently wanted the extra path between Leeds and York before TPE claimed it; I'd rather it went to LNER to run a London-Leeds-York-Newcastle(-Scotland) service with XC services starting from and terminating at Leeds and TPE concentrating on their core but that's a subject for another thread...
Halifaxlad
Established Member
Let me get this right you're saying, build a station in the middle that would hinder the creation of a new station to the East of Garforth, then to consider the options at the planning stage for the houses.
If a station was built in the middle I don't see the point of another station to the East of Garforth, you're logic does baffle me why you await till the planning stage, that's what most planners do. New stations/relocating station should really be decided with future developments in mind not await until they get to the planning stage before taking them into consideration of what infrastructure is needed.
The only thing that concerns me with a station in the middle is its relationship with the town centre and wider area!
They're a number of stations that I believe should never have been built, East Garforth is one of them!
As it stands, if a stopper leaves Leeds, the first place that anything else can pass it is Micklefield (and that assumes that a Hull train is following a York stopper or vice versa). If you 4 tracked all the way from Richmond Hill to the proposed Thorpe Park station, this will give scope for one or more fasts to pass it before the stopper hits the 2 track section East of Thorpe Park. This will also help with passing freight trains.
YorksLad12
Established Member
East Garforth is hardly insignificant though. It has one-third the passengers of Garforth, both have more passengers than Cross Gates. Fitting in a new station east of East Gardforth was already under consideration for East Leeds Parkway, with or without closing Micklefield. Combining the two between the two road bridges, with foot access from either and an extended car park (East Garforth has none) is a cheap and obtainable compromise.
I know we're in Speculative Ideas, but I always try and take the sting out of any objections by TPTB. It's what made me good at what I used to do
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
pre-covid blackpool trains did stop all stations between Leeds and York. the current timetable splits the blackpool services at leeds in to two separate services. TPE are currently not running the Newcastle-manchester airport service and the edinburghs-liverpools are curtailed at newcastle except for one service which retains route knowledge for Newcastle and Glasgow based crews. We are not sure what will be reinstated and when but it must be said the reduced timetable has remained consistently reliable due to the fewer trains operating. Funny thing that....
Like I said, if these yet to be built houses need yet another station to be built to block the route up even more then a planning application can be put in at the planning stage for the houses. If the houses are planned and a station hasn’t been planned then I think that says it all really.
I’m looking at what can be reasonably done (and it would probably be still too lavish), not what you can do when you raid the fantasy magic money tree.
My idea is to rationalise the two Garforth stations into one (which has in the past been proposed) to reduce station stops on a very busy 2 track section.
Better still the much vaunted East Leeds Parkway replacing Micklefield would be ideal and then you have two railhead/P&R’s serving all these new houses (ELP & Thorpe Park) and Garforth & Cross Gates still have their stations. No extra stops required.
Starting to move stations away from one area to serve another does nothing except rob Peter to pay Paul. The obsession of building a station to serve every new lamppost bemuses me. I thought this thread was about easing the congestion east of Leeds.
YRK - BPN has been Church Fenton only since at least Dec ‘18 and still is on a Sunday. There has been a stopper calling all stations (except CHF from Dec ‘18) since May ‘18.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
that actually makes more sense, thanks for the correction
No worries. Personally I can’t see the point in it as it just creates another fast service to make it harder to diagram in the stoppers. Even pre-COVID you were lucky if there were more than a dozen on board between Church Fenton and Leeds, they could easily be accommodated on the stopper. The whole section of route need recasting with less services threading through.
Many coming in from Leeds and CHF for a Friday or Saturday night out in York during December 2020 - mostly evading I think with limited mask wearing. Probably a regular occurrence but I aim to avoid those now.
East Garforth has around half the usage of Cross Gates (unless you meant the Garforth stations combined, in which case I take it back!)
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