How critical is the return of passengers and busy trains for railway jobs?

[Robertj21a]

Something is clearly putting people off rail travel still.

I don’t necessarily object to the idea of masks on a crowded train (though I’m still doubtful as to their effectiveness). However why on earth would I have needed one on the 22xx out of London over the last 9 months when there’s unlikely to be anyone else in the carriage, apart from the very occasional case of some doltz who decides to come and sit within touching distance as I’ve experienced a couple of times!

If something like the GTR environment is still relatively relaxed, that elsewhere certainly isn’t, with all the passive-aggressive PAs and such like. This is hardly an incentive to travel. Then we have stuff having been taken out of the timetable, which again takes away some element of incentive.

My reason for not travelling by rail is that, until 29th March, we were supposed to only make essential trips - and even today we are still asked to restrict our travel - quite apart from the fact that many places are closed.
In any event, most rail travel is still too expensive for casual travellers.

 

[Ianno87]

WFH and nothing open to travel to

Just what I was thinking, Closed shops, empty pubs, no holidays, no events. That’s what’s putting people off life as normal & travel. This last two weeks has seen such an uplift in passengers & that’s before more stuff starts. Just needs time.

Yep - the lack of reason to travel is by far the overriding factor here.

 

[yorksrob]

Government in this country seems addicted to "retail" as an industry, and they think it relies on office workers which is really odd. All booming retail does is provide low-wage, unproductive jobs, enable 'throwaway' consumerism with all of the negative environmental consequences, and increase reliance on cheap imports, thus worsening the balance of payments deficit. I guess it is symptomatic of a government with no vision though. They just want their tax revenues back as soon as possible, so cheap rubbish is the way to go.

Spot on.

This has been all our governments for the past forty years though.

They can ask me to restrict my travel.

I can ask them to restrict their B.S.

Doesn't mean it's going to happen though.

 

[JonathanH]

In any event, most rail travel is still too expensive for casual travellers.

I don't imagine it is going to get any cheaper. Do you think people just have the wrong perception of the cost / value of travel?

The quantum of railway jobs depends on revenue being restored, not necessarily the number of passengers.

 

[Starmill]

I don't imagine it is going to get any cheaper. Do you think people just have the wrong perception of the cost / value of travel?

No? If people perceive something as "too expensive" they generally choose not to buy it. The public in general does choose not to buy rail travel - it makes up a very small minority of journeys.

I'm surprised we still have to keep saying this really.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't imagine it is going to get any cheaper. Do you think people just have the wrong perception of the cost / value of travel?

The quantum of railway jobs depends on revenue being restored, not necessarily the number of passengers.

I'm sure that many people perceive rail travel to be too expensive. When you add in the likely inflexibility when compared to a car, and the possibility of missed connections or disruption (over which you may have no control) then it just adds to the negative feelings towards rail travel.

 

[dk1]

I'm sure that many people perceive rail travel to be too expensive. When you add in the likely inflexibility when compared to a car, and the possibility of missed connections or disruption (over which you may have no control) then it just adds to the negative feelings towards rail travel.

They just need educating. I did a good job on my Dad to the extent he bought a 2together railcard for trips from Yarmouth-Stansted Airport. Then came lockdown 1.

 

[Starmill]

They just need educating. I did a good job on my Dad to the extent he bought a 2together railcard for trips from Yarmouth-Stansted Airport. Then came lockdown 1.

So, you'd not agree that, for example, a system that didn't require such "education" in the first place would be better?

The quantum of railway jobs depends on revenue being restored, not necessarily the number of passengers.

Indeed! And the commercial prospects are dire. Worse even than the political ones.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Then we have stuff having been taken out of the timetable, which again takes away some element of incentive.

Not as bad as not putting it back in quickly enough à la last summer and this spring.

TOCs knew about this on the 22nd of February. Funnily enough, so did Joe Public. That's plenty time to uplift timetables. This does not apply to all TOCs, but to the overwhelming majority thereof.

 

[Robertj21a]

They just need educating. I did a good job on my Dad to the extent he bought a 2together railcard for trips from Yarmouth-Stansted Airport. Then came lockdown 1.

There's no need to educate anybody, most people are well aware of the costs and benefits or disadvantages of rail travel. It will be interesting to see how passenger volumes change over the next 12 months.

 

[dk1]

So, you'd not agree that, for example, a system that didn't require such "education" in the first place would be better?

Blimey that’s a difficult one. I’d need to sleep on that.

 

[Starmill]

There's no need to educate anybody, most people are well aware of the costs and benefits or disadvantages of rail travel.

Quite. Nearly everyone in this country has car access. It will nearly always be cheaper to go by car than by train. The result is the one you'd expect.

 

[dk1]

There's no need to educate anybody, most people are well aware of the costs and benefits or disadvantages of rail travel. It will be interesting to see how passenger volumes change over the next 12 months.

Well I don’t agree. My Dad simply thought as the coach was direct it’s better regardless of the journey time. As someone who travels everywhere by train for free thanks to my BR employee heritage & think nothing of connections & changing trains as it’s all so easy, I needed to educate him how simple, straightforward & often advantageous it can be. Stretching legs, pint in the buffet/bar & all that.

Quite. Nearly everyone in this country has car access. It will nearly always be cheaper to go by car than by train. The result is the one you'd expect.

The thought of driving any distance is all I have ever needed to put me off going in the first place.

 

[Starmill]

The thought of driving any distance is all I have ever needed to put me off going in the first place.

People who don't need to pay for train travel wouldn't ever disagree though would they?

 

[dk1]

People who don't need to pay for train travel wouldn't ever disagree though would they?

To be honest I’m at that point in life where I would happily pay in the same way I do for decent hotels. What I was saying is that that’s giving me the experience to convert my Dad. Those things like changing trains are nothing to worry about. It can be beneficial. More importantly he can have a beer or three on the way rather than stressing out at the wheel or feeling travel sick on a bus.

 

[Starmill]

To be honest I’m at that point in life where I would happily pay in the same way I do for decent hotels. What I was saying is that that’s giving me the experience to convert my Dad. Those things like changing trains are nothing to worry about. It can be beneficial. More importantly he can have a beer or three on the way rather than stressing out at the wheel or feeling travel sick on a bus.

Fine and dandy. But robertj21a wasn't saying rail travel never has qualitative advantages. I think most people would accept that it does. They were saying that it's too expensive. No good saying the Ritz is better value for money than Travelodge if I don't have the cash to pay the bill.

 

[Robertj21a]

To be honest I’m at that point in life where I would happily pay in the same way I do for decent hotels. What I was saying is that that’s giving me the experience to convert my Dad. Those things like changing trains are nothing to worry about. It can be beneficial. More importantly he can have a beer or three on the way rather than stressing out at the wheel or feeling travel sick on a bus.

Not too surprisingly, you enjoy your free train travel and hope others will feel the same. I enjoy my car travel, love the flexibility and personal control - and yet accept that there are 'hidden' costs that I need to consider. Even so, train travel will usually prove to be a less attractive option - and that's for just one person, let alone if there's 2 of us!.

 

[dk1]

Fine and dandy. But robertj21a wasn't saying rail travel never has qualitative advantages. I think most people would accept that it does. They were saying that it's too expensive. No good saying the Ritz is better value for money than Travelodge if I don't have the cash to pay the bill.

I suppose you have a point but often people only look at walk on fares then create at the cost without waiting for or hunting out the more restrictive advance rail bargains.

Not too surprisingly, you enjoy your free train travel and hope others will feel the same. I enjoy my car travel, love the flexibility and personal control - and yet accept that there are 'hidden' costs that I need to consider. Even so, train travel will usually prove to be a less attractive option - and that's for just one person, let alone if there's 2 of us!.

I must also say that I have never & will never enjoy car travel.

 

[Starmill]

I suppose you have a point but often people only look at walk on fares then create at the cost without waiting for or hunting out the more restrictive advance rail bargains.

So, again, you'd not prefer a system where tickets are cheap(er) in their eyes without being more restrictive? Bearing in mind that time restrictions don't apply to the use of cars.

I must also say that I have never & will never enjoy car travel.

I imagine same goes for a lot of people. It is simply that they don't want to or can't afford to pay more in order to avoid it.

 

[dk1]

So, again, you'd not prefer a system where tickets are cheap(er) in their eyes without being more restrictive? Bearing in mind that time restrictions don't apply to the use of cars.


I imagine same goes for a lot of people. It is simply that they don't want to or can't afford to pay more in order to avoid it.

Possibly yes. I think maybe. Haha.

 

[Starmill]

and yet accept that there are 'hidden' costs that I need to consider

Indeed so. It seems that the UK government are actually doing their best to encourage car drivers not to think about the externalities, by building them lots of nice new roads and giving real terms cuts in taxes.

They don't do anything to encourage the use of rail travel that I can see. However they do pay for advertising that says 'Coronavirus takes the train too'.

 

[Huntergreed]

There's no need to educate anybody, most people are well aware of the costs and benefits or disadvantages of rail travel. It will be interesting to see how passenger volumes change over the next 12 months.

Precisely. I would argue that the problem is predominantly a quantitative as opposed to a qualitative issue:

The train has many comfort benefits, as does the car. You are able to have an alcoholic drink (you can't on a car). You can stretch your legs and walk around, relax (no need to concentrate on the road ahead), get work done, get hot food prepared on the journey without a need to stop. The issue is not of quality, as there are very different, but significant comfort benefits of both modes of transport.

The issue is undoubtedly quantitative. We have some of (if not the) highest train fares in Europe by quite a considerable margin, and that fact alone is enough to put people off. We very much operate a 'book in advance' railway, where a standard class single from Aberdeen to Kings Cross on a new, shiny azuma is only around £40, whereas if you turned up on Monday morning for that trip, it would cost you over £120 (first class for comparison is £65 vs £273)

This, combined with complex time restrictions, means many people will resort to road travel, which allows them to travel where they please, when they please and for a more consistent and sensible price.

 

[coppercapped]

SNIP

I must also say that I have never & will never enjoy car travel.

You are obviously in the minority. There are some 35 million cars licenced for use on the roads. There are some 50 million people in the UK aged 18 or over and of these some 40 million hold driving licences.

So quite a large percentage of the population seem to be quite happy to use cars — it's these people who have to be attracted to rail travel.

To do this one has to be very clear what the advantages of rail travel are to this group. These advantages are not always obvious if, for example, the time required to get to one's local station is perceived to be excessive. Even if changing trains is a doddle, or one doesn't mind lengthening the journey by drinking beers on the way, if at the final station one is encouraged to walk or cycle or use public transport to reach one's destination then train travel loses some of its romanticism.

Train travel has to be as simple and as easy as using a car to be competitive for any journeys for which the start point and the destination are not within very easy reach of a railway station.

Getting back the missing passengers and attracting new one will be critical in keeping the railway in existence. Missing passengers will certainly mean a reduction in the infrastructure's capacity in the medium term[1], say the next five years, even if the effect on operating staff may not be so noticeable.

[1] Unless Network Rail can reduce its costs of operation significantly and react to changed circumstances more quickly.

 

[NoRoute]

Well I don’t agree. My Dad simply thought as the coach was direct it’s better regardless of the journey time. As someone who travels everywhere by train for free thanks to my BR employee heritage & think nothing of connections & changing trains as it’s all so easy, I needed to educate him how simple, straightforward & often advantageous it can be. Stretching legs, pint in the buffet/bar & all that.

I think the experience of rail travel can be quite variable though, too variable. It starts with the station and adequate parking if you arrive after 8AM, then there's the value for money of the fares, on some routes you can get cracking deals on advance tickets, on other routes even advance tickets are very expensive and tickets purchased at the station can be horrific. So it's not like rail is reliably good or fair value, it's quite variable.

Passenger facilities are too variable, walking along an open platform on an early summer morning waiting for the train as the sun rises is lovely. Stuck out on that platform when its windy and cold during the rain is grim and thinking about it, i find most bus stations offer a more consistent and better waiting environment than the typical railway station, despite a bus fare costing a fraction of a train fare. A typical bus station provides a heated indoor waiting area, often with a reasonable amount of seating, while many rail platforms have no indoor waiting area, little seating and some are entirely uncovered with nothing to keep the rain off. When you step back and think about it, the state of many stations is nothing short of bizarre.

 

[Hey 3]

The UK Government is pretty much pro road and a good 65% minimum anti-public transport/railway and I hope (although this will 85% never happen) there will be a sort of a "Take Public Transport to help out" scheme to help the transport sector, especially the railway and (although this is is impossible) the DFT and the Government do not advice car usage.

 

[MissPWay]

I think the experience of rail travel can be quite variable though, too variable. It starts with the station and adequate parking if you arrive after 8AM, then there's the value for money of the fares, on some routes you can get cracking deals on advance tickets, on other routes even advance tickets are very expensive and tickets purchased at the station can be horrific. So it's not like rail is reliably good or fair value, it's quite variable.

Passenger facilities are too variable, walking along an open platform on an early summer morning waiting for the train as the sun rises is lovely. Stuck out on that platform when its windy and cold during the rain is grim and thinking about it, i find most bus stations offer a more consistent and better waiting environment than the typical railway station, despite a bus fare costing a fraction of a train fare. A typical bus station provides a heated indoor waiting area, often with a reasonable amount of seating, while many rail platforms have no indoor waiting area, little seating and some are entirely uncovered with nothing to keep the rain off. When you step back and think about it, the state of many stations is nothing short of bizarre.

I wonder if local authorities have more say in the building of bus stations rather than private companies (200 years ago in some cases...)

 

[yorksrob]

It's interesting that during lockdown 1, the Government specifically advised car usage against public transport.

That has thankfully been heavily more muted recently, but we need to remind people how nice it is just to get on the train, sit down and turn up.

 

[LowLevel]

There are lots of elements to attracting and keeping discretionary travel. Obviously COVID has an impact but if I get big groups of leisure travellers on my trains as a guard I try to relate to them and make their day special. Big birthday group or hen party - offer to take their pictures for them so they can all be in it together. If they're up for it, get in the selfies yourself. Get them napkins, cups and things for their food from the trolley. Make an announcement for them wishing happy birthday or good luck for the wedding or whatever. Football groups - have a natter about the game and swap a bit of banter. Lone travellers who look a bit nervous - check platforms and connections, just be seen and smile (when you've not got a mask on ). When someone's falling down drunk, find your empathy, ring their boyfriend/girlfriend/mate, look after them a bit and get them home in one piece. Give little kids a blank ticket or a test print with a smiley face in it. Let them sit in the drivers' seat at the terminus (normal times permitting) and mum/dad get a picture.

So many ways you can add value for people with a little thought. Commuters want an efficient railway - leisure travellers want to enjoy themselves.

I am really looking forward to getting some of our leisure travellers back.

 

[dk1]

I think the experience of rail travel can be quite variable though, too variable. It starts with the station and adequate parking if you arrive after 8AM, then there's the value for money of the fares, on some routes you can get cracking deals on advance tickets, on other routes even advance tickets are very expensive and tickets purchased at the station can be horrific. So it's not like rail is reliably good or fair value, it's quite variable.

Passenger facilities are too variable, walking along an open platform on an early summer morning waiting for the train as the sun rises is lovely. Stuck out on that platform when its windy and cold during the rain is grim and thinking about it, i find most bus stations offer a more consistent and better waiting environment than the typical railway station, despite a bus fare costing a fraction of a train fare. A typical bus station provides a heated indoor waiting area, often with a reasonable amount of seating, while many rail platforms have no indoor waiting area, little seating and some are entirely uncovered with nothing to keep the rain off. When you step back and think about it, the state of many stations is nothing short of bizarre.

Maybe some people expect far to much. I must admit to finding many bus stations awful places to wait.

 

[ic31420]

My point was not to make out working from home encouraged a degree of laziness.
My point is that so many people ‘appear’ to want to work from home and are keen to shout out its (self serving) benefits yet fail to see the bigger picture.
An employer in London can instantly shave £K’s off a salary (London weighting etc) when the employee no longer has the expenditure of travelling.
You reap what you sow etc etc

My employer has had people working from home during covid. They're basically deployed VPN software to loads of desktops computers and sent people home with them.

The first issue to arise is that being a 24/7 business a desktop machine would be used by several people each day. Those of us who need to work in the the workplace suddenly found that 15-20% of the staff had taken 50% of the terminals home leading to us now having more staff than terminals. We've made it work but it has introduced inefficiency, I've spent the first hour of many a shift say drinking tea due to being no terminals and it has created a race to be first in to get on an available terminal. Leading to people coming in upto 90mins early. I have no interest in doing that so I'll always be one of the ones with no terminal.

The organisation is reluctant to buy more terminals because this is supposed to be temporary and because they're in short supply from the source. They have retained and patched up some stuff meant to be retired on the usual capital replacement but it's a finger in the crack in the dam.

There has over winter been an increase in grumbling and from those working at home a out the fact that they have had their heating and light in more so have higher utility bills and the fact they are using their own internet subscriptions, desks, chairs, spare rooms, and some.whondont have the extra space have suddenly found themselves with desktop computers on the kitchen table or in one case on a bit of work top across some upturned milk crates in the living room of his small flat with no extra compensation.

I believe the organisation has had to invest in some expensive IT kit to make the intranet suddenly available to a huge people via a Vpn / internet.

The argument that they are not using cars fuel public transport etc quelled the grumbling for a while but the grousing has returned with several pointing out they have cars on finance plans that that bought largely to go to work and that this is a cost that hasn't gone away. Several people live within a 5mins walk and so don't incur any such costs anyway. Apparently one of the unions is supposed to be taking it up, but as I don't subscribe Im out of the picture.

Anyway point is. Whilst working from home may seem like a great idea initially it seems from what I hear from those doing it they are increasingly hating it and can't wait to get back to the office.

From my perspective you lose so.much from being able to see people easily face to face. I've lost count of the number of zoom/ teams meetings that have had tech issues. We even have a set of yes/no/I can hear you/ I can't hear you/etc cards made up so we can hold them.up when sound goes awry. Then there are those that are interrupted by kids/pets/amazon deliveries/guests arriving and so on. Grrr.