How dangerous is the third rail?

[43066]

The train will still be more attractive than your head, unless you happen to have a metal plate in it.

What about when I wear my tin foil hat to work?

 

[furnessvale]

The train will still be more attractive than your head, unless you happen to have a metal plate in it.

43066 will have to be plug ugly to be less attractive than a class 70!

 

[43066]

43066 will have to be plug ugly to be less attractive than a class 70!

Pug ugly I could have taken, but plug ugly?! That’s just outrageous!

 

[furnessvale]

Pug ugly I could have taken, but plug ugly?! That’s just outrageous!

If you were only pug ugly you would be MORE attractive than a 70!

 

[AM9]

That's why all trains have an orange line at cant rail that you do not go above. Above that any electrics earth to the train & tracks or you if you go above it. Below it you are less electrically attractive than the train.

What are "PTS rules"?

 

[najaB]

What are "PTS rules"?

Personal Track Safety - it's a qualification that you need to hold before you're allowed to work trackside.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Personal Track Safety - it's a qualification that you need to hold before you're allowed to work trackside.

That explains your certification thread then.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Back in the early 70's and probably for a long time before, P-way staff carrying out daily routine maintenance (walking the length etc.) on the Euston DC lines did so with trains running and obviously the 3rd and 4th rails live. They had 'insulated tools' and the only injury I recall when I worked on the accidents section was when a man packing ballast touched both the live and running rails with his shovel blade, the resulting short circuit showering him with sparks. As has been said already, contact by clothing (those BR issue long heavy raincoats being the usual culprit) on the DC lines was the most common danger but, unlike contact with the AC, never seemed to be life-threatening.
Possibly the S.R. P-way staff had similar equipment - otherwise, the old, labour intensive, system of daily routine track maintenance would not have been possible without very disruptive isolations.

 

[theironroad]

To answer the OP question,

very dangerous if you touch it, potentially fatal.

If you follow your PTS and observe the rules then it won't cause you any bother.

 

[43066]

To answer the OP question,

very dangerous if you touch it, potentially fatal.

If you follow your PTS and observe the rules then it won't cause you any bother.

At my old depot drivers used to book on, take a look at their diagrams, and proclaim: “I’d rather lick the juice rail than do this pile of sherbet” .

 

[MistaMatthews]

To answer the OP question,

very dangerous if you touch it, potentially fatal.

If you follow your PTS and observe the rules then it won't cause you any bother.

I intend to follow my PTS training, just that making that lethal step causes me bother when you're only inches away.

Surely there's been cases of somebody tripping on it or something similar?

 

[ExRes]

I intend to follow my PTS training, just that making that lethal step causes me bother when you're only inches away.

Surely there's been cases of somebody tripping on it or something similar?

Of course people have tripped on it, some people will trip over anything, you need to treat it with respect but don't fear it. I'm as clumsy as anyone but I survived hooking and unhooking wagons with platforms one side and the 3rd rail the other side and I survived running round a TPO set in Ashford Yard in the dark with snow which was deep enough to cover all three rails, look what you're doing and do it confidently and you'll be fine

 

[najaB]

Surely there's been cases of somebody tripping on it or something similar?

Yes, there have. But it's not a common event, so take care and it's unlikely to be you.

 

[thenorthern]

It depends on which part of one's body that the live current touches as well. As with most electric shocks you want to avoid the heart.

A couple of years ago there was a poor lad who had recently moved from Pakistan and he put his ear to the rail at Godstone to listen if a train was coming as that is what you do in the Indian Subcontinent. Unfortunately he came into contact with the live rail and it killed him instantly.

Teenager Kanwel Butt electrocuted while 'listening' to railway track to see if his delayed train was coming


An inquest heard how in Pakistan people sometimes listen to rails, which are not live, to see when trains are arriving


Tragic teen Kanwel Butt was electrocuted while 'listening' to the railway track to see if his delayed train was coming.

The 17-year-old put his ear to the live rail and was killed instantly.


An inquest today heard how the teenager had moved to England from Pakistan just months earlier and was making his first solo train journey.

In Pakistan people sometimes listen to rails, which are not live, to see if a train is coming.

Investigators examined CCTV footage and discovered Kanwel had already walked across the tracks and back to get to an intercom to ask train staff why his advertised service was not on time.

Still apparently concerned, he then clambered down from the platform again, knelt down and leaned towards the deadly rail, which discharged a massive shock, killing him instantly.

In a police statement read out at the hearing, Kanwel's father, Amjad, said that his son would probably not have known about live rails.

Teenager Kanwel Butt electrocuted while 'listening' to railway track to see if his delayed train was coming

An inquest heard how in Pakistan people sometimes listen to rails, which are not live, to see when trains are arriving

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[big all]

The third rail has a level of danger. It's both safe if used correctly and very dangerous if used wrongly. Was I frightened of the "juice rail" not in the least did, I respect it yes but at a level that helped me stay safe. The biggest problem happens when you don't have the capacity to understand the risks and solutions to a problem. The safest route is always the best, fully avoiding the danger, but where not practical give it a bit above the minimum clearance when stepping over it but not much as over stretching with an awkward gait is far more dangerous than a natural passage where your attention will be on traffic dangers rather than the minimal risk underfoot.

 

[philthetube]

If you are worried about the stride across, sometime when you KNOW the juice is off practice a bit, just striding across it, give you some confidence.

Maybe there is a bit of dummy track somewhere you could use.

 

[thenorthern]

While it's best to avoid any contact with the third rail another thing to remember is the Network Rail overalls are made of Polycotton which is a very bad conductor of electricity. This will provide a lot of electrical resistance compared to bare skin touching the live rail.

 

[MistaMatthews]

If you are worried about the stride across, sometime when you KNOW the juice is off practice a bit, just striding across it, give you some confidence.

Maybe there is a bit of dummy track somewhere you could use.

Yeah the centre that I trained in had dummy track. When there's no power it's simple. Pressure is a lot more when it's live.

 

[contrex]

I seem to recall that LT depot staff have/had well insulated "shunter's shoes" and also Tyvek trousers, and routinely walk on the juice rails to couple/uncouple. I have a feeling that if I worked in a 3rd rail zone I might fork out for these, especially after reading about that freight driver in Kent not so long ago (mind you there was another factor there). I once read an awful story by a chap who worked at an LT depot, how on a Friday afternoon a young apprentice, excited at having his first pay packet, ran rather carelessly across the tracks towards the depot gate, tripped over the pos rail, and landed, hands out. on the neg rail. Pouring with rain, soaking wet, no chance. Also in the rain, the newly arrived Canadian soldiers at Guildford in 1940.

 

[philthetube]

Yeah the centre that I trained in had dummy track. When there's no power it's simple. Pressure is a lot more when it's live.

did you ever get it wrong on the dummy track because you are far less to do so on the real thing when you are aware of it.

Third rail is not dangerous, it doesn't chase you or bite. It is people who do not respect it who are dangerous.

Wear the correct equipment, make sure the lighting is good, if you do not feel it is safe say so and if you are asked to do something you feel is unsafe say no, remember your training and you will be fine.

 

[Dan17H]

I work in the South East where 99% of all the routes are 3rd rail. I found working knowing its live keeps you focused, and you also regulary hear train shoes come into contact with the juice before you see them.

As others have said try and find gaps, use station footbridges, or areas with kickboards.

It becomes more challanging in sidings and around points with the smaller sections and different ramp ends identifying what is what. But if you walk ballast to ballast you can't go wrong.

 

[bassmike]

Back in the early 70's and probably for a long time before, P-way staff carrying out daily routine maintenance (walking the length etc.) on the Euston DC lines did so with trains running and obviously the 3rd and 4th rails live. They had 'insulated tools' and the only injury I recall when I worked on the accidents section was when a man packing ballast touched both the live and running rails with his shovel blade, the resulting short circuit showering him with sparks. As has been said already, contact by clothing (those BR issue long heavy raincoats being the usual culprit) on the DC lines was the most common danger but, unlike contact with the AC, never seemed to be life-threatening.
Possibly the S.R. P-way staff had similar equipment - otherwise, the old, labour intensive, system of daily routine track maintenance would not have been possible without very disruptive isolations.

No doubt due to the continued use of the dreaded bullhead rail etc:

 

[Dr_Paul]

My upstairs neighbour when I was a kid was a permanent way ganger working for London Transport, and he told us that if he'd had a few too many at lunchtime, he'd glance his foot across the conductor rail and the jolt would sober him up. We think that he was joking, but we were never quite sure.

 

[Merle Haggard]

No doubt due to the continued use of the dreaded bullhead rail etc:

Indeed, knocking keys back in and checking fishplate-bolt nuts for tightness.
As an aside, I did make a suggestion ca. 1970 ('W.A.S.P.' I Win A Suggestions Prize) that either nyloc nuts should be adopted or at least shakeproof washers used, but apparently "tightening nuts is only a trivial part of walking the length".

 

[DerekC]

I didn't have any trouble with PTS and stepping over third rails. What did scare me silly was going down into a small underground substation one day via an iron ladder and half turning at the bottom to find that some genius had left the 11kV side covers off the live transformer connections. I very carefully removed my elbow from close proximity and got the hell out! Returned later with the supply isolated to put the covers back on. (Nothing to do with railways, I hasten to add!)

 

[richieb1971]

It kind of confuses me why there are not lots of dead animals in the southern region lines.

I asked for assistance at Hither Green in the 80's to get some pictures and a BR guy held my hand whilst I jumped the 3rd rail. Afterwards I kinda felt it was a total unnecessary risk, but I was wondering if the depots have a constant supply of power to the rails considering nothing moves for large periods of time.

 

[theironroad]

It kind of confuses me why there are not lots of dead animals in the southern region lines.

I asked for assistance at Hither Green in the 80's to get some pictures and a BR guy held my hand whilst I jumped the 3rd rail. Afterwards I kinda felt it was a total unnecessary risk, but I was wondering if the depots have a constant supply of power to the rails considering nothing moves for large periods of time.

That's why the railway boundary fencing is inspected and maintained .

The main animals that get caught by the third rail are badgers and there's often a few around juiced as they've tried to cross the track.

Power supply is always live in depots regardless of frequency of train movements. Just like the mainline it is only switched off for planned maintenance or in emergencies.

 

[Gloster]

It kind of confuses me why there are not lots of dead animals in the southern region lines.

I asked for assistance at Hither Green in the 80's to get some pictures and a BR guy held my hand whilst I jumped the 3rd rail. Afterwards I kinda felt it was a total unnecessary risk, but I was wondering if the depots have a constant supply of power to the rails considering nothing moves for large periods of time.

As mentioned above badgers do appear to fall victim to the juice rail, but others seem to either have a sixth sense, feel the influence of the rail and know to keep clear, or have some inexplicable (to humans) intelligence system that passes on warnings.

If you turned the power on only when needed the workload on those managing the system would be enormous, with many extra posts needed. There would also be delays because sometimes you would have to wait to get the power put on for your train as ‘all our operators are busy at the moment’. And this is in the era of radios and mobiles: think what it would have been like with old line side ‘phones.

And it might breed a casual attitude: “Oh, they don’t use that road. It’s never li-.”

 

[theironroad]

As mentioned above badgers do appear to fall victim to the juice rail, but others seem to either have a sixth sense, feel the influence of the rail and know to keep clear, or have some inexplicable (to humans) intelligence system that passes on warnings.

If you turned the power on only when needed the workload on those managing the system would be enormous, with many extra posts needed. There would also be delays because sometimes you would have to wait to get the power put on for your train as ‘all our operators are busy at the moment’. And this is in the era of radios and mobiles: think what it would have been like with old line side ‘phones.

And it might breed a casual attitude: “Oh, they don’t use that road. It’s never li-.”

Lol, great post.

Just like on on the rural lines in Scotland and maybe elsewhere where RETB is in place, they could bring a system of REJS , that's Radio Electronic Juice Supply.

You arrive arrive at Marker A , maybe a station, press a button on the GSMR or its successor to request electrical supply for the next section . Juice granted, you carry on and the someone in the contracted out ECO supplier flicks a switch or puts a few pounds in the meter for the next 20 miles. Then repeat......

 

[DaveTM]

I have actually reported a burning badger to the signaller. I was new and wet behind the ears.

I don't find stepping around the live rail worrying. You know where the danger is, you are totally aware of it, you deal with it appropriately. You can be reassured that the breakdown voltage of air is in the region of 3000V per millimeter. Thus you have to get to within about 0.25mm of the juice before it will jump. Essentially, unless you touch it, you will not feel it.

What does worry me is climbing into and out of cabs. I do it so often, and yet every so often I remember, hundredths of seconds after the fact that my hands were in contact with the (earth) body of the train while my feet were near the zappers - 750V across the heart... When you tread carefully there is little risk, when you clamber thoughtlessley it could be much much worse.

Risk is very much dependent on the quality of your shoes or your dealer. One day at Winchester I saw a drug-addled fare dodger attempt platform 1 to platform 2 via the tracks. His screams on discovering the juice were animal. Blood curdling. Disturbing. On the other hand, in my first week out after getting my key I hit the red button on the radio to report a drug-addled trespasser who was walking from $RuralJunctionStation to $RuralHamletStation and kicking the juice rail on the way. He was totally oblivious to the juice. I suspect good insulation, but admit the possibility that his pharmaceuticals were of a higher calibre.