How did the railways pass through Hadrian's Wall?

[Gathursty]

Taking a journey beyond Carlisle today prompted me to think of how Hadrian's Wall was affected by the building of the railways in (relatively) recent times.

1) Where on the WCML would Hadrian's Wall have passed (Google maps link preferred)?
2) Including former lines, how many times was Hadrian's Wall crossed over by a railway?
3) What was the view in the 1830s with regards to preserving Hadrian's Wall?
4) What did the railway builders do with bits of the Wall they may have had to move?
5) Has anyone in the past 50 years tried to do/done an archeological dig on NR land where Hadrian's Wall passed?

 

[edwin_m]

Don't know any of the answers, but I doubt they would have paid much attention to heritage issues. Witness the making of new arches in the walls of York and Conwy Castle and the demolition of most of another castle at Berwick.

I think the Wall would be pretty degraded at both ends by the time of the railways, but the Newcastle-Carlisle line crosses it twice furhter inland and a few other minor closed lines would have had to do so as well. You can see it on the OS mapping that is available at Bing maps.

 

[Traveller54]

In general, Victorians did not appear to care much for heritage. I once lived near the site of a 12th century Norman Castle (motte) of which there was nothing much left. Apparently it was a Sunday afternoon pastime of the toffs who lived in the nearby big house in th 19th century to plunder the remains.

The Antonine wall in Central Scotland must also have been crossed by a number of railways.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Much of Hadrian's Wall was used to build Hexham Abbey and many farm buildings

 

[Lucan]

In general, Victorians did not appear to care much for heritage. I once lived near the site of a 12th century Norman Castle (motte) of which there was nothing much left. Apparently it was a Sunday afternoon pastime of the toffs who lived in the nearby big house in th 19th century to plunder the remains.

Few Victorians could give a fig for heritage. They were inclined to sweep it away, an attiude not unlike that of the 1960's which ironically wanted to sweep away anything Victorian (eg Euston Arch, St Pancras nearly), and indeed many people up to the present time (eg Tony Blair's removal of previous PM portraits from No 10 to pose himself as cool).

It would take a lot of toffs a lot of Sundays to remove a castle. It was mostly done builders through the ages using them (and abbeys) as stone quarries, with or without formal permission. Up until about the 1920s some landowners were still selling to builders on a large scale, particularly decorative stonework from older mansion houses such as those gutted by fire and not listed at the time. The trade continues today on the black market, mainly from "invisible" and unlisted locations such as ornate fireplaces from inside Georgian houses.

 

[randyrippley]

Well........considering the ECML goes straight through the grounds and wall of Newcastle castle its clear little care was taken to protect old buildings. If anything, old buildings en route would have made convenient ad-hoc quarries.
The builders of the WCML went straight through the middle of a stone circle somewhere around Shap (I don't have my books to hand so can't name it) destroying some stones, with others thrown aside.
My guess is that the railway builders would have reused whatever stone they could lay their hands on

 

[randyrippley]

Few Victorians could give a fig for heritage. "

A point that's especially important to remember when looking at parish churches.
Many had their medieval history swept away in Victorian vandalistic resettings, rebuilds and "restorations"

 

[Calthrop]

One feels that any northward-building Victorian railway pioneer who -- exceptionally -- felt qualms about damaging ancient artefacts; would likely have consoled himself along the lines of, "the Romans were a practical and unsentimental people who were big on efficient communications: they would have been cool with what we're doing".

A kind of a salute to Hadrian's achievement, could be seen in the name of the first station north from Hexham, on the North British Railway's Wall-crossing Hexham -- Riccarton Junction line: called Wall, serving the village of that name, very close to the anti-barbarians barrier.

 

[StoneRoad]

Rail Map online, with the satellite image enabled might give some idea about answering this ...

http://railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

That may need zooming etc

 

[JohnR]

Few Victorians could give a fig for heritage. They were inclined to sweep it away, an attiude not unlike that of the 1960's which ironically wanted to sweep away anything Victorian (eg Euston Arch, St Pancras nearly), and indeed many people up to the present time (eg Tony Blair's removal of previous PM portraits from No 10 to pose himself as cool).

At the risk of going OT, that didnt happen. The portraits of previous PMs going up the staircase have been there for a very long time, and will continue to be added to. They sometimes get shuffled down a bit, as the custom is for the incumbent to be at the top of the staircase.

 

[Lucan]

While I was not there myself, I read a newspaper report at the time that Blair had removed the portraits from the staircase and replaced them with modern art. The fact that they had been there for a very long time was exactly why he might have done it - show a new broom etc. I'm not suggesting he made a bonfire of them in the back garden, and no doubt they are back in place now.

The newspaper might have got it wrong of course, wouldn't be the first time.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Taking a journey beyond Carlisle today prompted me to think of how Hadrian's Wall was affected by the building of the railways in (relatively) recent times.

1) Where on the WCML would Hadrian's Wall have passed (Google maps link preferred)?
...

Have a look at the old OS map on the NLS site at
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102340758#
The 1865 map shows "ROMAN WALL (Site of)" passing slightly to the N of Carlisle centre, and not just where the railways cross it.
Similar just to the NE of Carlisle on this sheet: http://maps.nls.uk/view/102340737

Which kind of implies that the wall in that area was probably long gone/robbed out before the railway arrived.

Edit: scroll out on the Bing current OS maps here:
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=ad17...4~-2.9119&lvl=14&style=s&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027
to see "HADRIAN'S WALL (course of)" on a current map.

 

[backontrack]

Don't know any of the answers, but I doubt they would have paid much attention to heritage issues. Witness the making of new arches in the walls of York and Conwy Castle and the demolition of most of another castle at Berwick.

I think the Wall would be pretty degraded at both ends by the time of the railways, but the Newcastle-Carlisle line crosses it twice furhter inland and a few other minor closed lines would have had to do so as well. You can see it on the OS mapping that is available at Bing maps.

Such as the Hexham-Redesmouth line, perhaps?

 

[Essan]

By the time the railways came to Carlisle, there would probably have been nothing left of the Wall there - if not built over, it's stones plundered for other buildings. Looking at the map, the railway crosses the course of the Wall between it's bridges over the rivers Caldew and Eden. I see the power station was also built atop the site of the Wall.

The Carlisle-Newcastle line today crosses the Wall twice - and in proximity to some of the best preserved stretches - at Gilsland and just north of Greenhead. Despite having been to both places I can't recall whether there are any signs that the Wall was demolished to make way for the railway or not. However in the latter case, the crossing point is right alongside a river. This was also the case where the Kielder line from Hexham crossed the wall, by the North Tyne at Chollerford. In both cases, riverine erosion may have meant there was little remaining of the Wall, if it ever even existed at the exact point*. In Newcastle the railway crosses the course of the Wall somewhere in the city centre, possibly just to the south of St James Park. Again I would guess all trace of the Wall had gone long before the railway arrived.

* I am not sure off hand exactly how close the Wall came to any river it had to cross. There was usually a large fort close by though. Culverts were used for smaller streams.

 

[swt_passenger]

In Newcastle the railway crosses the course of the Wall somewhere in the city centre, possibly just to the south of St James Park. Again I would guess all trace of the Wall had gone long before the railway arrived...

AIUI from various maps, including the OS Hadrian’s Wall historic map, the course of the wall within the modern Newcastle was along Westgate Road, the visible walls just south of St James Park being town walls rather than Roman. The course of the wall would be very close to the east end of Central Station, crossing the junction of Westgate Rd and Neville St. Considered untraceable from there down to the swing bridge area, but the railway probably crosses the wall course in the area between the station and medieval castle. East of the castle the main line is then always north of the course of the wall, but the riverside branch would have crossed it just to the east of Byker (road) Bridge.
The next railway to the west that crossed the wall must be the aforementioned Border Counties Railway up the north Tyne Valley.

I agree that within the Newcastle area there’d have been no sign of the Roman Wall to worry about, but they definitely had a field day when it came to demolishing the medieval town walls, you only have to see how close the ECML comes as it passes between the Castle and Black Gate...

 

[Elecman]

The builders of the WCML went straight through the middle of a stone circle somewhere around Shap (I don't have my books to hand so can't name it) destroying some stones, with others thrown aside.
My guess is that the railway builders would have reused whatever stone they could lay their hands on

They did indeed just north of Shap summit where the Sidings and connections are on the upside.

 

[Taunton]

The Chester & Holyhead Railway 9now North Wales main line) did this unbelieveable blast through one corner of the perfectly intact Roman walls of the city of Chester.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1925662,-2.8988552,96m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[edwin_m]

AIUI from various maps, including the OS Hadrian’s Wall historic map, the course of the wall within the modern Newcastle was along Westgate Road, the visible walls just south of St James Park being town walls rather than Roman. The course of the wall would be very close to the east end of Central Station, crossing the junction of Westgate Rd and Neville St. Considered untraceable from there down to the swing bridge area, but the railway probably crosses the wall course in the area between the station and medieval castle. East of the castle the main line is then always north of the course of th3 wall, but the riverside branch would have crossed it just to the east of Byker (road) Bridge.
The next railway to the west that crossed the wall must be the aforementioned Border Counties Railway up the north Tyne Valley.

I agree that within the Newcastle area there’d have been no sign of the Roman Wall to worry about, but they definitely had a field day when it came to demolishing the medieval town walls, you only have to see how close the ECML comes as it passes between the Castle and Black Gate...

That confused me because I always assumed it ended at Wallsend, but the link below says that was a later extension.

http://www.hadrianswallquest.co.uk/projects/central-newcastle-and-gateshead

PROJECT TITLE: FINDING THE WALL IN THE CITY CENTRE
ACTIVITIES: Survey and desk-based research
TARGETS: To trace the line of the Wall through the City Centre

However the map on that site is pretty useless, basically just joining a pin in Newcastle to one in Wallsend. The OS map shows it following Shields Road in Byker, suggesting to me that it may have crossed the railway at a very shallow angle east of Manors.

 

[swt_passenger]

However the map on that site is pretty useless, basically just joining a pin in Newcastle to one in Wallsend. The OS map shows it following Shields Road in Byker, suggesting to me that it may have crossed the railway at a very shallow angle east of Manors.

As far as I have read over the years, the Romans had built a fort in roughly the same position as the Norman castle, and the eastern extension would have also started close to the river, rather than being a straight line continuous with Westgate Rd and across to the modern Shields Rd. I think it may well have had a sort of southward kink down to the river; IYSWIM. It’s possible there’s been research into where the wall crossed the Ouseburn and Pandon Burn, another tributary of the Tyne nearer the bridges. I’ll have a look through some books on Newcastle that I have in a box somewhere...

I found a pdf that has a go at locating the wall through the urban areas, might be of interest: http://hadrianswallcountry.co.uk/sites/default/files/Walking the Wall on Tyneside.pdf
... especially map p10 and diagram of Roman fort p13.

Another relevant point is that the stretch of mainline immediately east of the castle is carried on a viaduct much higher above local ground level, it’s possible it goes high over any possible traces, rather than through them as the OP was asking.

Despite my username I lived in Heaton until 18, we covered the wall in some detail at school back in the 60s, but the bit between Byker and the Castle was always glossed over a bit...

 

[daikilo]

The Chester & Holyhead Railway 9now North Wales main line) did this unbelieveable blast through one corner of the perfectly intact Roman walls of the city of Chester.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1925662,-2.8988552,96m/data=!3m1!1e3

I haven't checked, but I certainly think from what remains that they did not "blast through" Chester walls. Indeed, given the completeness of what is now there, I think they spent as needed to retain as best the roman remains, maybe by rebuild.

 

[edwin_m]

I haven't checked, but I certainly think from what remains that they did not "blast through" Chester walls. Indeed, given the completeness of what is now there, I think they spent as needed to retain as best the roman remains, maybe by rebuild.

I think it's similar to the ones in York and Conwy where they just built a very large arch. They would have had to demolish and re-built that part of the wall, but I don't know how much care they took about using original stones in the original positions etc.

 

[Altfish]

The Chester & Holyhead Railway 9now North Wales main line) did this unbelieveable blast through one corner of the perfectly intact Roman walls of the city of Chester.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1925662,-2.8988552,96m/data=!3m1!1e3

I would argue that it wasn't as bad as the Chester Ring Road (A5268) did in the 1960s, which is just to the east of those rail breaches.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1929519,-2.8969723,221m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[swt_passenger]

As mentioned I have searched online, in a few books and in old maps to try and establish where the line of Hadrian’s Wall intersects with the modern route of the ECML somewhere between Newcastle Central and Manors, and the immediate conclusion is that no-one really knows! As edwin_m suggested some fairly reputable maps of the mid 20th century seem to just draw a straight line from fairly accurately known excavations (eg in Benwell) straight across to Shields Rd in Byker.

But more recent discoveries place the wall footings on the south side of both Westgate Rd and Neville St, and perhaps aiming towards the Norman Keep, and apparently some 20th century archeological findings suggest the wall ran just by All Saints church, near Silver St (a set of stairs nowadays). Historically it was also believed that the Sallyport (part of the Town Walls) incorporated remains of a Roman turret, that’s elevated above the modern City Rd and situated at the SW end of Garth Heads, the latter also having revealed Roman remains at its other end.

So for now I’m just going to stick with a probable wall crossing ‘nearer the castle than Manors’...

Have linked to an 1830 map extract found via a Tyne and Wear Museums blog, the possible line of the wall heading to the Sallyport is marked bottom right:

http://blog.twmuseums.org.uk/the-real-barras-bridge-and-newcastles-beautiful-lost-dean/

 

[exile]

This thread seems to be based on a misconception, that is, that in the 19th Century the wall was more or less continuous between Carlisle and Newcastle. It wasn't!

 

[Gathursty]

This thread seems to be based on a misconception, that is, that in the 19th Century the wall was more or less continuous between Carlisle and Newcastle. It wasn't!

Now I reflect on my OP, I do realise how ridiculous my assumption that such a structure would stay intact for several centuries is. On the other hand, the Pyramids of Giza haven't had too many bricks removed and they are significantly older hahahahaha!

 

[edwin_m]

Now I reflect on my OP, I do realise how ridiculous my assumption that such a structure would stay intact for several centuries is. On the other hand, the Pyramids of Giza haven't had too many bricks removed and they are significantly older hahahahaha!

The Pyramids were originally faced with smooth stone, but that has nearly all gone leaving the rougher interior visible. I don't know if there are a lot of buidings round Cairo incorporating funny triangular stones, but there are buildings near the Wall incorporating stone from it. Probably this had largely finished by the time the railways came, as most of the surviving areas were too remote to make the stone worth robbing.

 

[Gathursty]

The Pyramids were originally faced with smooth stone, but that has nearly all gone leaving the rougher interior visible. I don't know if there are a lot of buidings round Cairo incorporating funny triangular stones, but there are buildings near the Wall incorporating stone from it. Probably this had largely finished by the time the railways came, as most of the surviving areas were too remote to make the stone worth robbing.

If we extend the notion that previous generations of Brits didn't care much for historical structures, then it is intriguing why so much of the Pyramids at Giza remain when the stones could have been used in other building projects over the years.

 

[exile]

Cheers.

I remember Victoria in its heyday when it four or five bays and more through platforms before they built that horrible Arena on top of it.

If we extend the notion that previous generations of Brits didn't care much for historical structures, then it is intriguing why so much of the Pyramids at Giza remain when the stones could have been used in other building projects over the years.

. Interesting question. Google doesn't reveal anything - the answers given to why they lasted so long talk about the robustness of the structure which is of course irrelevant to the reason why the stones weren't nicked and used elsewhere (perhaps they were too big to be of use?). Rome's ancient buildings are in ruins not because they are old or were poorly built, but because marble proved useful when building churches.

 

[swt_passenger]

This thread seems to be based on a misconception, that is, that in the 19th Century the wall was more or less continuous between Carlisle and Newcastle. It wasn't!

I think a few of us have already raised that viewpoint, I was interested in the way that it seems even maps from before the railway arrived didn’t really help with the route either...

 

[swt_passenger]

. Interesting question. Google doesn't reveal anything - the answers given to why they lasted so long talk about the robustness of the structure which is of course irrelevant to the reason why the stones weren't nicked and used elsewhere (perhaps they were too big to be of use?)...

Probably right. Wouldn’t you need thousands of slaves to dismantle a Pyramid, assuming the theories (and old movies) about how they were put up are correct?