How did you know when freight trains were due before RealTime Trains?

[Peter C]

Hello all.
Having used RealTime Trains (RTT) for quite a lot recently, I was wondering how you used to know when things such as freight trains (or just generally non-passenger trains) were due through a station?
Was there a secret way of finding out, or would one have to obtain a Working Timetable, which I assume, seeing as they were only in print, were harder to find than the modern WTTs (which are available online)? Or was there just no way of knowing and it was a "turn up and see what happens" sort of deal?
I know RTT only started showing freight services from late January 2013, as evident from this thread. However, I'm asking mainly about, say, the 60s/70s/80s/90s (or even the early 2000s at a push), when there wouldn't have been an online system to find the working timetable on (I assume).

Thanks very much,

-Peter

 

[Ianno87]

Freightmaster

 

[randyrippley]

Freightmaster

which was what?

 

[krus_aragon]

which was what?

@Freightmaster himself would be best to answer that, but in short it was a paid-for summary of timetabled freight workings by region, with periodic updates throughout the year.

That'd give you the paths, but much like RTT today, there'd be no guarantee that a scheduled train would run (and you couldn't check online to see if it had left its origin or not).

In addition, or separately, there were several online mailing lists or groups where spotters would post notice of what they'd seen operating where. That'd include both passenger and freight workings, and often included details such as which loco was hauling. Yahoo Groups were commonly used for these "gen" groups a decade or two ago.

 

[86247]

when we used to go to bank quay in late 80s early 90s it was always pot luck as to what we would see their was always a crowd on the end of the platform so would ask them what we had missed their would be a lot of swearing when we found out if something big had gone through lol

 

[plarailfan]

In the 1980's, I worked at Huddersfield station and we had an STN - special traffic notice, which was a paper booklet, issued on a weekly basis.
Typical entries would include such things as railtour timings and events such as this class 56 test run in 1976 https://www.flickr.com/photos/41294...eSt-eHemwj-hp65sB-ezuKFQ-e1L3VX-VPLCis-6PSy49
Local enthusiasts used to call in to enquire what was listed in the STN for the coming week. Often they went away disappointed as nothing was shown for our local area and so, being around for anything unusual was often a matter of good luck and being in the right place at the right time ! I much prefer it these days, as back then, many wasted hours ensued simply waiting and hoping....

 

[Dr Hoo]

In a slightly oblique answer to the OP’s question, ‘back in the day’ there were many locations where there really were a lot of freight trains and local trips. So if you were just there for the experience, taking photographs or collecting numbers you would be fairly likely to get some good results. Obviously it was better to head for somewhere like Severn Tunnel Junction or Warrington rather than Hampton Court or Windermere but you get the idea.

 

[muddythefish]

Trainspotting back in the 1960s the only time you knew a train was coming was when the bells started ringing in the nearby signal box, the wires rattled as the signalman pulled the levers and the pegs (signals) went up. No internet in those days, and it was fun and exciting.

 

[Peter C]

Thanks all. I completely forgot about Freightmaster - and I was reading the history section of the Freightmaster site just before!

In the 1980's, I worked at Huddersfield station and we had an STN - special traffic notice, which was a paper booklet, issued on a weekly basis.
Typical entries would include such things as railtour timings and events such as this class 56 test run in 1976 https://www.flickr.com/photos/41294...eSt-eHemwj-hp65sB-ezuKFQ-e1L3VX-VPLCis-6PSy49
Local enthusiasts used to call in to enquire what was listed in the STN for the coming week. Often they went away disappointed as nothing was shown for our local area and so, being around for anything unusual was often a matter of good luck and being in the right place at the right time ! I much prefer it these days, as back then, many wasted hours ensued simply waiting and hoping....

Oh OK - thanks very much. It's nice that you provided the info to the enthusiasts - I'm sure there are plenty of people on the railways today (and probably back then as well) who wouldn't. I bet there were regular enthusiasts and you could just tell them "yes" or "no" based on their preferences when they walked in?

In a slightly oblique answer to the OP’s question, ‘back in the day’ there were many locations where there really were a lot of freight trains and local trips. So if you were just there for the experience, taking photographs or collecting numbers you would be fairly likely to get some good results. Obviously it was better to head for somewhere like Severn Tunnel Junction or Warrington rather than Hampton Court or Windermere but you get the idea.

Oh OK - thanks. I'd seen videos and photos of stations where loads of freight trains went through - and I understand the whole thing about certain stations getting more freight trains than others - my local station gets pretty much nothing (apart from the RHTT) and Oxford, a few stations down, gets everything!


Thanks,

-Peter

 

[Malcmal]

Contacts and the "jungle telegraph"!! If you could find a tame staff member with a TOPS machine things were so much easier. I remember a TOPS enquiry called a "traffic flow" with query code TRJD + location ID (if I remember correctly) which was very informative.

 

[xotGD]

On your home patch you got to know what to expect. Elsewhere, just festering on the platform in hope was the order of the day.

As others have said, in some locations there was a virtual procession of freights, so you knew there would be plenty to see or photograph.

However, I have been known to spend a couple of hours in a promising location with my camera and left after seeing absolutely nothing!

The rules of the game have definitely changed. Rock up two minutes before the train, click, then away. More time in the pub, less time on the platform!

 

[Spartacus]

There was certainly more of a flies honey pot feel to more prime locations back then, when you’d rarely have to hang around for long to see something.

As the above poster, I’ve gone somewhere with local knowledge that something interesting should be coming, only to wait for ages in vain as it’s been cancelled. While there’s a reduced chance of finding a hidden gem these days, I’d rather that than be wasting journeys to be stood in the cold, rain, or even decent weather, for something that never turns up. I think there’s more photographs from more unusual places as a result of better info now.

 

[Neptune]

Knottingley in the 80’s and 90’s was a procession of freight trains. Pretty much guaranteed to see a dozen or so an hour. On a weekend the shed was always jammed full and depending on the foreman you could sometimes get around (same as most sheds back then).

 

[midland1]

Many hours by the lineside blue sky, sun and SEEN NOTHING! try next week.

 

[Condor7]

Although I prefer the way it is now, there was something about waiting at a station or line side and then hearing a train approaching wondering what it might be. Usually it just turned out to be something you would have expected but what a buzz when it was something unexpected!

 

[jbqfc]

used to just go and hope for something good sometimes you would get thing on the grapevine
you could also guarantee that when you went to the toilet something would come through and you would miss it

 

[Peter C]

Thanks all. It's interesting that there were a few ways of finding out what was going through somewhere - I assumed it was just a guessing game.

you could also guarantee that when you went to the toilet something would come through and you would miss it

I can confirm that still happens today

-Peter

 

[d9009alycidon]

Personally to see freight you just drove to Mossend, parked up on what was the old station platform and waited in the car, you didn't have to wait too long for something.

 

[Llanigraham]

You stood near the Signal Box, so you could hear the bells, and learnt what the codes/sequences meant.

 

[Peter C]

Personally to see freight you just drove to Mossend, parked up on what was the old station platform and waited in the car, you didn't have to wait too long for something.

Interesting - turns out these stations had more freight going through than I ever imagined!

You stood near the Signal Box, so you could hear the bells, and learnt what the codes/sequences meant.

Oh OK - I think anyone who can understand the codes is really quite clever - to me it's pretty much magic!

-Peter

 

[Welly]

I remember Freightmaster was so helpful to me when I was photographing the Gainsborough Lea Road to Lindsey Refinery crude oil trains in the late 1990s! Gave me the paths but I do remember waiting and hoping they would turn up! Those were the days...

 

[malc-c]

Trainspotting back in the 1960s the only time you knew a train was coming was when the bells started ringing in the nearby signal box, the wires rattled as the signalman pulled the levers and the pegs (signals) went up. No internet in those days, and it was fun and exciting.

That was my experience in the last 60's too... when the wires operating the signals twanged and rattled.... and then guessing what was coming (Other than the distinctive sound of a deltic )

 

[6Gman]

Worth pointing out that the staff didn't always know what was coming in freight terms!

Going back to the late 1970s/ early 1980s when I worked in the freight planning office in Crewe the arrangements were:

1. There was a freight timetable for basic paths, fully timed. Some of these services ran pretty consistently. In other cases the timetable was very much a loose guide!
2. Each week we would issue dozens of S-notices, listing changes to the timetabled arrangements. These were often very loosely timed - multiply the mileage by two and add ten minutes point-to-point.
3. If changes arrived too late to issue as a printed S-notice it went on the Control Sheet - a list of alterations for the next 36 hours which the office junior (me initially) took to the regional control office downstairs. Not a job for the faint hearted. Arrival was usually greeted with a string of profanities, suggestions our parents were unmarried, and enquiries as to what we did all day ...
4. There were also OG-notices for out of gauge loads. These were precisely timed because there were often special conditions such as "no passenger train to pass in the opposite direction between Weaver Junction and Coppenhall Junction" because they didn't want people leaning out of windows to have their heads knocked off!

Bear in mind that there were only three ways of getting all this information out there - printed on paper, sent by telegraph, or phoned out. No faxes, no e-mail, no electronic communication.

So to imagine the changes would get out to every station, every signalbox, every yard was ... optimistic!

In the next post I'll explain how this worked in detail.

 

[kermit]

I honestly can't remember how I knew anything at all before google / wikipedia.....

 

[Bertie the bus]

As far as railtours were concerned I would estimate based on the times printed in the brochures the operators produced. Although it did entail some standing around, perhaps surprisingly as they were sometimes produced months before the tour ran, it did result in an almost 100% success rate.

 

[krus_aragon]

I honestly can't remember how I knew anything at all before google / wikipedia.....

School! Newspapers! What the bloke down the pub said!

 

[kermit]

School! Newspapers! What the bloke down the pub said!

But now, looking back, I'm just not sure they were terribly reliable sources?

 

[krus_aragon]

But now, looking back, I'm just not sure they were terribly reliable sources?

Possibly not, but things may not be significantly better today (but certainly different).

Back then, if it was written in a book then "it must be true" for many people, as the financial and editorial thresholds were relatively high. That's not to say there weren't lies published, though: just ask Freddy Starr about hamsters. And the contents of books weren't always that up-to-date, either.

Today, just about anybody can publish material online with relatively little expense; there's an audience for just about any content and viewpoint. With the greater availability of information, we've got more disinformation on offer too.

 

[Welly]

As far as railtours were concerned I would estimate based on the times printed in the brochures the operators produced. Although it did entail some standing around, perhaps surprisingly as they were sometimes produced months before the tour ran, it did result in an almost 100% success rate.

During the 1980s, I remember reading in Rail of "Railtour Standard Time" - 1 hour later than planned by the time it got to the destination!

 

[Bevan Price]

In the mid 1960s, you could buy lists of freight (and passenger) services that were booked for steam haulage. These were duplicated - rather than printed (a technique that is probably now extinct***). They were a fairly good guide to what to expect, especially for those of us with no access to working timetables or weekly notices -- but not totally reliable. Freights could be cancelled, turn up as light engine movements, or sometimes appear with a diesel.

*** - (In a typical duplicator, text was typed onto a stencil; you then put it onto a hand-rotated drum, together with a blank sheet of paper, plus some printing ink. As the drum was rotated, the text on the stencil was copied onto the paper. That was before Xerox type photocopiers were afforable / available.
See, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimeograph )