How do Northern collect revenue on doubled up units?

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Eric

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Serious question: how do Northern make revenue on these doubled up services where there's no access between the two trains like a 142+150, 155+158, 142+142, 153+142 etc?

Earlier at Halifax a 142+150 to Manchester Victoria pulled in and everyone realised the guard was in the rear unit (150), so everyone all jumped in the 142.

Presumably hoping for a free ride.
 
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aformeruser

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RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspectors) and ticket barriers exist at some stations. Ticket barriers are obviously always at the same stations, RPIs move around to try and catch people out. If you're caught deliberately fare dodging or short faring you could end up in court and get a criminal record. A lot of people have been caught out by saying they travelled from Cross Gates at the barriers at Leeds (to pay the cheapest fare to get through the barriers) when Northern have had RPIs at Cross Gates meaning no-one got on the train at Cross Gates without a ticket.

This side of the Pennines I usually have to show my ticket to two different sets of RPIs when travelling between Knutsford and Manchester. If the conductor asks to see it then it'll be inspected three times in total.
 
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EM2

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Serious question: how do Northern make revenue on these doubled up services where there's no access between the two trains like a 142+150, 155+158, 142+142, 153+142 etc?

Earlier at Halifax a 142+150 to Manchester Victoria pulled in and everyone realised the guard was in the rear unit (150), so everyone all jumped in the 142.

Presumably hoping for a free ride.
Is there anything to stop the guard moving forward on to the 142 at the next stop?
 

aformeruser

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Is there anything to stop the guard moving forward on to the 142 at the next stop?

I think Northern are required to have one staff member on both units in such circumstances so if the guard moves to the front unit, the rear unit has to be locked out of use or the driver has to move to the rear unit (only appropriate if there's a reversal!)

On some services you get an AFC who does revenue on the front train and he/she can sell/inspect a lot more tickets than the guard due to not having to do the door duties.
 

Moonshot

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Some of the diagrams are allocated 2 conductors - usually as an assist on way back to home depot.
 

40129

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I think Northern are required to have one staff member on both units in such circumstances so if the guard moves to the front unit, the rear unit has to be locked out of use or the driver has to move to the rear unit (only appropriate if there's a reversal!)

Would be interested to know the reasoning as other operators allow the guard to ride in the front unit when doing revenue duties resulting in there being no staff in the rear unit
 

transmanche

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Would be interested to know the reasoning as other operators allow the guard to ride in the front unit when doing revenue duties resulting in there being no staff in the rear unit
I believe that Northern's own company rules [*] require the guard to undertake their door duties from the rear cab/rearmost set of doors.

[*] Certainly when Serco/Abellio operated the franchise, from what I've seen posted on this forum.
 

scrapy

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I believe that Northern's own company rules [*] require the guard to undertake their door duties from the rear cab/rearmost set of doors.

[*] Certainly when Serco/Abellio operated the franchise, from what I've seen posted on this forum.

Varies dependant on unit/unit combinations being worked but dispatch is generally only allowed from the rear half of the train. On units with no intermediate door controls such as single 142s this means rear door only. Exceptions apply but units never worked from front coach unless a failure of other door controls or local station specific instruction.

This has been the case since report into James Street incident to give guard better and longer platform visibility. There must also be a safety critical member of staff in the rear set if in passenger use, so guard cannot do revenue in the front set unless both units have walk through gangways or there is a second guard assisting although Northern have wanted guards to be able to move between sets for revenue purposes but RMT have said no.
 
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lejog

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Serious question: how do Northern make revenue on these doubled up services where there's no access between the two trains like a 142+150, 155+158, 142+142, 153+142 etc?

Earlier at Halifax a 142+150 to Manchester Victoria pulled in and everyone realised the guard was in the rear unit (150), so everyone all jumped in the 142.

Presumably hoping for a free ride.

There's normally ticket inspectors on the bridge at Halifax (the only entrance), at least from morning until early evening. Also often at other larger stations on the line, so I doubt there are many passengers without tickets. For all the dislike of pacers expressed on this board, even when 158/142 combinations run I don't note that many people avoiding the 142s, most people seem to just want seats.
 
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FQTV

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On Saturday doubled-up 185s ex Newcastle, even trolley services and First Class hosts seem adept at unit-hopping. With the aid of RPIs and manned gate lines, guards should presumably be nimble enough to move beyond a coupler, unless they have decided to nest in the rear cab owing to shyness.
 

tbtc

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It's not the case in every route, but a large proportion of journeys on Northern's network are wholly within a PTE area, where people buy subsidised weekly/ monthly/ annual tickets - so even if you are only likely to be gripped once a week it's still cheaper/easier to have a cheap PTE ticket.

Conversely, it also means that there's a lot less incentive for Guards to chase up every passenger, when a single ticket might just be a couple of quid - guards on InterCity services seem much more proactive, but then if they can get their 10% commission on a £200 fare then it'll be worth investigating every passenger - I'm not condoning it but I can understand why staff aren't busting a gut to check every £4.10 return from Bolton to Manchester.

Also, given the way that 142s work, with the Guard having to dispatch from the rear doors, you can often avoid your ticket being checked even on a single unit (so this isn't confined to doubled up non-gangway stock).
 

Geeves

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Trust me Eric. Northern makes a very healthy operating profit every week. DB are doing quite well out of it! <D:lol:
 
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ANorthernGuard

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Depends on the types of units if you have 2 units with/without gangway doors you can do the doors either from the front of the rear set or the rear doors of the rear set. Northern have about 50 RPA's on the Network that spend a lot of their time in the front sets.
 

johntea

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RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspectors) and ticket barriers exist at some stations. Ticket barriers are obviously always at the same stations, RPIs move around to try and catch people out. If you're caught deliberately fare dodging or short faring you could end up in court and get a criminal record. A lot of people have been caught out by saying they travelled from Cross Gates at the barriers at Leeds (to pay the cheapest fare to get through the barriers) when Northern have had RPIs at Cross Gates meaning no-one got on the train at Cross Gates without a ticket.

This side of the Pennines I usually have to show my ticket to two different sets of RPIs when travelling between Knutsford and Manchester. If the conductor asks to see it then it'll be inspected three times in total.

But Cross Gates is unstaffed so I would think the passengers, even if some are probably trying it on, have the right to purchase the ticket at Leeds?

Put it this way, there are often 2 or 3 RPIs at my local (unstaffed) station which I won't name but half the time they certainly don't seem very interested in selling tickets!
 

aformeruser

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But Cross Gates is unstaffed so I would think the passengers, even if some are probably trying it on, have the right to purchase the ticket at Leeds?

Put it this way, there are often 2 or 3 RPIs at my local (unstaffed) station which I won't name but half the time they certainly don't seem very interested in selling tickets!

Passengers are supposed to buy tickets at the first available opportunity so if there's RPIs at the all the station entrances with ticket machines selling tickets then passengers don't have the right to buy discounted tickets at Leeds unless staff say they can. Some RPIs only inspect tickets and direct passengers requiring tickets to other staff.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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I'm guessing there's been a fair bit of ticketless travel on the Blackpool South line today- 4 car 150/2 with no ticket checks so far as I head back to the 21st century- at Ansdell & Fairhaven now, so it's about 1997...
 

Jonny

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I'm guessing there's been a fair bit of ticketless travel on the Blackpool South line today- 4 car 150/2 with no ticket checks so far as I head back to the 21st century- at Ansdell & Fairhaven now, so it's about 1997...

Perhaps it suits the train company not to record them, so that it doesn't appear on the ticket sales ;) / :(
 

aformeruser

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It's not the case in every route, but a large proportion of journeys on Northern's network are wholly within a PTE area, where people buy subsidised weekly/ monthly/ annual tickets - so even if you are only likely to be gripped once a week it's still cheaper/easier to have a cheap PTE ticket.

Or where multimodal tickets (including Plusbus) are available. Just looking at a shortist journey I'm planning to do in a few weeks outside a PTE area involving train and bus I'm going to buy a rail ticket with Plusbus for £8.40. If I were to avoid buying a ticket on the outbound rail journey I would then have to buy a £4 ticket for the bus and then risk being made to purchase a £4.60 single ticket for the return rail journey home so trying to avoid paying £4.40 could cost £4.60.
 
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