Apologies if this has already been discussed elsewhere, but the other day I was waiting for a train at a station which was unstaffed at the time, and as I had a few minutes to spare I thought it might behove me to work out how to obtain a 'promise to pay' ticket from one of Northern's newfangled ticket machines, as I generally pay for my train tickets in cash. On this occasion I was already in possession of a ticket, so I was just doing research, but for the life of me I could not work out HOW to get a 'promise to pay' ticket, as when I inputted my destination the only option given was to pay by debit/credit card, and there was no mention of 'promise to pay' on the screen at any time. Does anyone have any idea?!
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
How do you get a 'promise to pay' ticket?
- Thread starter RonnieMac
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Bantamzen
Established Member
If you are using a TVM at a station where the Northern Penalty Fare scheme is live, which currently are only the Aire & Wharfe lines in West Yorkshire, you request a ticket as you would normally, then at the payment screen there is an option for 'Cash' which will produce a Promise To Pay. Its not the most intuitive way I know, but having had the P2P option originally on the opening screen as a one-touch option led to some miscreants emptying the TVMs of tickets at certain stations, this is meant to try and deter them from doing this I believe.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 4,923
Is that seriously how it works? Are there any instructions on the machine that make it obvious?
If I could see a TVM could not take cash, and I was going to pay with cash, why on earth would I waste my time trying to use the machine to pay with cash? Unless it is obvious that you have to do that to get a Promise To Pay ticket, then I have no idea who the hell would even try that.
Bantamzen
Established Member
The TVMs do have a big yellow splash screen saying "No card, no problem" as attached, and there are regular recorded announcements stating that P2Ps are required for cash paying passengers so there is really no excuse. And as I have said over on the thread about the scheme, most passengers seem to have no trouble with it.
View media item 2966
trainmania100
Established Member
I assume it's like a Pertis machine where you insert the relevant amount of change then get a Pertis ticket to exchange for a real ticket?
- Joined
- 21 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 4,583
On the contrary, it’s my understanding the machines can not accept cash - thus the Promise to Pay coupons are free, on the understanding that you’ve made a pledge to actually pay.
Bantamzen
Established Member
No, these machines take card payments only. You request the ticket as normal, it prints a Promise To Pay with the starting station and time specified, and this is produced when paying the guard on the train or at a revenue check if this happens first. There are some new machines that do take cash, although its not yet clear how and where these will be deployed (Platform 2 at Guiseley has one for example).
trainmania100
Established Member
Thats
Ah okay. Guess it minimises the chance of a cash ticket machone being nicked
Warwick
Member
Why not simply have a machine which, when a button is pushed knocks out a ticket with the name of the station, the time and the day's date. Proof of originating point and no worries about the machine being robbed for cash or anyone who doesn't have a card.
nickswift99
Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2013
- Messages
- 273
As previously mentioned in this thread, repeated pushing of said button exhausts the ticket supply in the machine so those paying with card can't get tickets either.
ForTheLoveOf
Established Member
- Joined
- 7 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 6,416
Maybe require a fingerprint or other biometric measure then? I would usually be strongly opposed to such intrusive measures, but if they help with getting the balance of fare evasion vs. passengers' rights correct, then I can see the value in it.
causton
Established Member
Interesting you mention 'passengers' rights' and having to scan a fingerprint to avoid getting a penalty fare!
It could be better explained on the TVMs if you don't see the yellow splash screen but it is the best solution with what they have available IMO.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Indeed, I think at the very start of the trial it was more or less a one button press to produce them, but I know at least once the platform at Baildon was strewn with P2Ps one morning (with the TVM out of order as a result) and I suspect it happened elsewhere as well. I imagine a change to the software was needed quickly to prevent it happening again.
You don't need to go as far as that, a touch-in smartcard system ought to be enough. So the TOC issues the card, cash users touch-in on arrival to the station which loads the relevant detail onto the card as is currently printed on the P2P, then said card is presented to guard / revenue collector who touches the card against the reader and could even auto-populate the starting station / time to reduce input time for them. Its a simple solution that although would need initial investment would speed up times at TVMs, and reduce sale times for revenue collecting staff. Of course there would still need to be a printable version for those without a card, but given that Northern amongst other operators are seriously looking at wider smart card usage it would make sense to add something like this into the solution.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 4,923
But nothing to say how you get a promise to pay ticket?
Because if the process is as quoted, to follow the same steps as if you are were going to buy the actual ticket you want, and then right at the end press the cash button, then that is so not obvious or intuitive at all. If a TVM does not have anyway of putting in cash, and you only have cash, why on earth would you even try to use it in that way?
I understand why Northern have made the decision they have, but it needs to be more obvious if it isn't. Indeed the message you posted a picture of could easily be reworded to add the extra sentence - "To obtain a Promise To Pay notice, follow the normal method of buying your required ticket, but select the Cash option at the payment screen".
Also - even more pedantry, the message you linked to specifically says "Credit Card". Surely it should say "Credit / Debit Card"?
Bantamzen
Established Member
As I said, its maybe not the most intuitive, but people seem to manage nonetheless. Most people just use their common sense and go through the normal ticket ordering process and expect to be presented with a cash option, which they are. Northern could put something on the splash screen (maybe a suggestion to pass to them?), they could even put on a brief guide but how many people would pay attention is another matter.
Frankly you could put almost anything on those screens and some people still wouldn't notice. As a developer I am constantly reminded by users that no matter how intuitive you make a system, no matter how much guidance you write, or prompts you offer, some will manage to make a fuss, whilst a least one will find a way to crash it altogether (I refer to these users as PICNIC, Problem In Chair Not In Computer) *
(* Disclaimer: This last paragraph is intended to be light hearted, and not to be taken too seriously)
Warwick
Member
If a station is not equipped with a ticket machine or ticket office then it would suggest that it is a lightly used station. It cannot be beyond the realms of impossibility for the machine to be topped up each day. Having said that I do realise we are no longer in the "can do" era but the "ah but" era.
lyndhurst25
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Nov 2010
- Messages
- 1,410
The process of obtaining a P2P ticket is not at all intuitive. I struggeled the first time I had to get one. As I can see it, there are a number of reasons why a passenger may need to get a P2P, not just the "No card. No problem" splash-screen scenario that Northern are pushing.
1. Maybe I do have a credit card but I don't actually want to use it to buy my train ticket. Perhaps I want to pay by cash or Rail Travel Vouchers.
2. Maybe I want to buy a ticket that the machine cannot sell e.g. rovers, sailrail tickets, Northern newspaper special offer tickets, Priv discounted tickets or a ticket either a different origin than the station that I'm at, etc. I may want to pay by cash but equally I may want to use my credit card.
3. Maybe I want to buy a ticket using my credit card but it is above the cost limit for TVM sales. I'm not sure what the limit is but the TVM at Steeton wouldn't let me complete the test purchase of a first class ticket to Thurso!
The current process of having to select a destination and a fare, and then telling the machine that you want to pay by cash doesn't cover many of the possible scenarios. Perhaps the machine should just say something along the lines of "This machine accepts credit/debit cards only. If you want to pay by another method, such as cash, or if the machine does not list the ticket that you want to buy, then please obtain a Promise to Pay ticket by choosing your destination station and pressing the "Promise to Pay" button. You will then need to pay for your ticket on the train or at a station on your journey".
1. Maybe I do have a credit card but I don't actually want to use it to buy my train ticket. Perhaps I want to pay by cash or Rail Travel Vouchers.
2. Maybe I want to buy a ticket that the machine cannot sell e.g. rovers, sailrail tickets, Northern newspaper special offer tickets, Priv discounted tickets or a ticket either a different origin than the station that I'm at, etc. I may want to pay by cash but equally I may want to use my credit card.
3. Maybe I want to buy a ticket using my credit card but it is above the cost limit for TVM sales. I'm not sure what the limit is but the TVM at Steeton wouldn't let me complete the test purchase of a first class ticket to Thurso!
The current process of having to select a destination and a fare, and then telling the machine that you want to pay by cash doesn't cover many of the possible scenarios. Perhaps the machine should just say something along the lines of "This machine accepts credit/debit cards only. If you want to pay by another method, such as cash, or if the machine does not list the ticket that you want to buy, then please obtain a Promise to Pay ticket by choosing your destination station and pressing the "Promise to Pay" button. You will then need to pay for your ticket on the train or at a station on your journey".
methethpropbut
Member
Idea literally just came in my mind - would it not be possible to just make the user press a single button (or two), and then wait a small amount of time (say, 5 seconds) before dispensing a Promise To Pay ticket? Sounds reasonable enough to someone who genuinely wants a ticket, but any miscreant wanting to print 100 of them will face a time penalty - a deterrent just as the current system!
The type of people that are likely to abuse these things are the type of people that don’t go and have an hour of ticket machine emptying before work sadly, they won’t have anything better to do. Perhaps if a time delay was implemented it could be AFTER a promise to pay is issued, it won’t issue another for say 10 seconds. This doesn’t delay the passenger and isn’t an unreasonable amount of time for the passenger to collect the ticket and move away for the next person to use it.
It would also double the amount of time between printing as a higher deterrent.
I don’t personally think it’s a valid idea I’m just giving an idea of a variation on this concept.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Does it not? Really? Really really?
I think the system makes sense. It gently encourages people to use their card if they can- which is cheaper for the railway and easier for the passenger- whilst providing the cash option on the purchase page. The only time you'd need to know about a Promise to Pay is at the stage when you're looking to pay for the ticket you've selected.
TVMs can't sell the full range of tickets, but TVMs that accept cash also can't accept the full range of tickets, so it's not an issue with the Promise to Pay system. Perhaps there should be a screen for "ticket not available" which would issue a Promise to Pay. But most people looking to use niche tickets like rail rovers and SailRail will already know enough to choose a destination- any destination- and cash payment. For these people, a Promise to Pay is much better than a TVM that does accept cash, given that the rules are you should part-pay and get a refund/exchange at the nearest staffed ticket office when your ticket is not available.
And there you have it in a nutshell - as was the case with the penalty fare thread - people are using niche tickets as an excuse to say the system fails and sailrail from a TVM? New one on me but ive never tried so wouldnt know if its there. Whataboutery in full effect once again
Your average punter will not even notice that the machine doesnt take cash at first as its not something normal people will be looking for and will go through the process of purchasing where they will come across the promise to pay when there is no cash option.
Really is striaght forward, as long as youre not looking for every little thing to say that its all wrong.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 4,923
Well or the fact that if you can see a TVM doesn't accept cash, why on earth would you even try to use it if you are planning on using cash? (unless it is made obvious that if you need to select cash as an option and then that gives you a Promise to Pay).
Bantamzen
Established Member
Well like I say, people seem to be working it out, just as many people do with any new system. Its a lot like most other electronic payment systems, be they rail related or not. You follow the process on screen until you reach a payment option, look for the cash one and go from there. The fact that there are signs on stations & audio announcements about the need to obtain a promise to pay should incentivise most people into using the process TVM to obtain one. Yes it might be better if the splash screen tells them what to do, but not everyone will read that and besides even if they did we'd have the usual round of "What about (insert name of niche rail ticket / pass)" on here, which if all were covered on the splash screen the text would need to be in point 10 font even on the big screens to fit all the information on.
And for those people who can't work it out first time, there is always the option of asking someone. There is even a help button on the TVMs which hopefully would connect them with someone able to tell them to go through the normally ticket ordering process.
So, uhm. If someone doesn't have a (credit/debit) card to pay with, they just need to bring a (smart) card with them so they can pay with cash?
lyndhurst25
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Nov 2010
- Messages
- 1,410
Don't get me wrong, I think that the Promise to Pay ticket system is a good one, but in my opinion it has been shoddily implemented. Really.
Ask yourself, if you wanted to buy a West Yorkshire Day Rover and pay by credit card, not a "niche" thing to do by any means, what is the actual wording of instructions on the TVM that you would be expected to follow? And, if you do manage work it out (i.e. lie to the machine) and get one, what is the wording of the text on the P2P ticket?
Buyers of WY Day Rovers, whether wanting to pay by cash or card, should have an obvious method of getting a P2P ticket, otherwise pay-when-challenged fare dodgers will soon cotton on to the get-out-of-jail-free excuse of "I wanted to buy a Day Rover but the machine wouldn't let me".
Attachments
Any reasonable guard or rpi when faced with the scenario that someone was unable to buy a rover ticket or similar from the machine would sell them one there and then and think no more about it. Throughout most of the network with most staff if you want a ticket the machine doesn’t sell you don’t need to faff about cutting trees down to print some nonsense that you can exchange for a ticket, you just buy a ticket on board the train when the guard comes around. If you board at a station with a card machine and try to buy a simple ticket with a card from the guard then they should get a penalty fare in most situations.
I can see situations in future where you’ll have to print a 4’ squared ticket as a promise to pay to exchange it for a 4’ squared ticket from the guard who won’t be able to sell you the ticket you want due to incompetence or unreasonably complicated technology for you to have to buy a ticket they can sell in order for you to exchange that at a ticket office for the actual ticket you want and a form to fill in to refund your original ticket causing you to miss your connection meaning you then claim delay repay whereby they send you printed out rtv and an accompanying letter that is 1 page and 4 words of text meaning it uses 2 pieces of paper and the rtv come as 5 separate ones for seemingly random amounts and 3 ‘void’ ones underneath.
Other than that I can see the scheme working really well.
.........Edit to add, my apologies I’m not sure what led me to believe that the machines printed on the till roll style stock. I think it was the idiots emptying them image. So only the on board ticket would be the size of a small town.
I can see situations in future where you’ll have to print a 4’ squared ticket as a promise to pay to exchange it for a 4’ squared ticket from the guard who won’t be able to sell you the ticket you want due to incompetence or unreasonably complicated technology for you to have to buy a ticket they can sell in order for you to exchange that at a ticket office for the actual ticket you want and a form to fill in to refund your original ticket causing you to miss your connection meaning you then claim delay repay whereby they send you printed out rtv and an accompanying letter that is 1 page and 4 words of text meaning it uses 2 pieces of paper and the rtv come as 5 separate ones for seemingly random amounts and 3 ‘void’ ones underneath.
Other than that I can see the scheme working really well.
.........Edit to add, my apologies I’m not sure what led me to believe that the machines printed on the till roll style stock. I think it was the idiots emptying them image. So only the on board ticket would be the size of a small town.
- Status