GEML is arguably in a terrible state. The infrastructure falls to bits on a regular basis and there are numerous speed restrictions popping up all over the place. There has been a huge emphasis put on a complete new fleet for the line in recent weeks/months/years. The intercity sets are likely to be replaced in 2020 or maybe slightly before and it remains to be seen what will happen with the rest of the stock. The big issue is though even if you order a complete new fleet for the line you are still not going to achieve Norwich in 90 nor perfect punctuality with the current state of the line. Network Rail have a massive backlog of work to do, with numerous level crossings and foot crossing that really need closing need closing but huge amounts of opposition to that. So how on earth do solve the issues on this line?
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How do you solve a problem like GEML?
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open a big bag of magic money that doesn't run out. Make it six-track to Shenfield (two for Crossrail, two for suburban, two for IC). Make it four track to Ipswich. Eliminate all level crossings and flat junctions. Run a freight line round the M25 AND complete the Felixstowe-West Midlands via Ely capacity upgrade & electrification. Go for 225 (or even 250) km/h for the fast lines.
NSEFAN
Established Member
Getting freight off the GEML and NLL would be a good start. Hurry up and wire the route via Bury St Edmunds and March, or at least haul on diesel for now.
They need to cascade the IC225 sets over to there so the Mk3 coaches can be utilised elsewhere on the network. Restructuring the infrastructure on the overhead lines, have bridges going over the lines instead of level crossings. Making a relief line for intercity services to overtake freight and stopping services
In fantasy, a bottomless pit of money from which to do everything.
In reality, get freight heading north from Ipswich and not south. Close as many crossings as possible replaced with bridges where needed. Possibly an entire retimetabling from scratch. If it would fit (not sure if it could) a bi-directional centre road at Chelmsford.
In reality, get freight heading north from Ipswich and not south. Close as many crossings as possible replaced with bridges where needed. Possibly an entire retimetabling from scratch. If it would fit (not sure if it could) a bi-directional centre road at Chelmsford.
Just doubling Bury-Ely would be a good start. Wiring up is well into fantasy land, especially given the propensity of cheap infrastructure to sink into the Fens ... and did the work in this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68376 ever get completed?
A middle bidirectional road at Chelmsford would be a great idea if it's feasible. Close Hatfield Peveral and build Beulieu Park with passing loops. But this is all pie in the sky and would cost more money which seems to be severely lacking at the moment. The only thing I heard the transport secretary say today was about modern stock on the Norwich-Ipswich-London route. So they don't seem to be wanting to solve the real problems on this line.
Reduce the freight on the GEML, but it seems FL use of the BFC at Ipswich is quite rare and still run via the yard, DBS/GBRf however do not seem to have the same problems using it !
The HOBC is on it's 3 year programme, so that should see some benefits, Norwich in 90 is really just 'pie in the sky'
Thimgs may pick up when they start/finish the Felixstowe Line loops (Orwell and Trimley) and possible double line junction at Westerfield.
The HOBC is on it's 3 year programme, so that should see some benefits, Norwich in 90 is really just 'pie in the sky'
Thimgs may pick up when they start/finish the Felixstowe Line loops (Orwell and Trimley) and possible double line junction at Westerfield.
The thing is its easy for DfT and or TOC to show a nice shiny train to someone than show them the benefits of the installation of high speed points, passing loops on a seemingly unrelated line or a footbridge and a closure note on a right of way.
Freightliner use the curve a lot more now than they used to. However there is still a contractual issue with a third party allowing train crew to relieve on the curve.
Frankly it was pie in the sky that curve would see all traffic stop going via London to begin with.
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Indeed! They will bring out the shiny new trains in the new franchise, the politicians will take the credit, people will be very happy for about 5 mins until the next points failure, or OHLE problem and then realise the new trains haven't solved the real issues on the line. The whole "Berlin Wall" rubbish at Stowmarket is prime example of how this line won't get any better unless they tackle the real issues.
I will laugh so much when the intercity sets are replaced but the delays keep happening and they still can't achieve Norwich in 90!
al.currie93
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I agree, I honestly don't think there's much wrong with the current stock except the need for a proper refurbishment. The real issues do seem to be the infrastructure and as you say, that seems to be being ignored...
daniel3982
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Well the 91s and MK4's will definitely not be going to the MML now.
al.currie93
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They're also brand new, so they'll be perfect for the role!
Or at least the politicians and TOCs will claim them to be...
MidlandMainlie
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91's no, but Mk4's with a new diesel loco is a possibility (either HST's on the MML will need to be made 2020 compliant or something will need to replace them).
I've got nothing against new trains being brought in BUT they will not be what enables Norwich in 90. The transport secretary seemed to say today that new trains would be in the new franchise spec but the infrastructure improvements will seemingly be delayed and only completed within the next franchise which could up to 2027. How on earth they believe Norwich in 90 is possible with just a new fleet is beyond me. Seems the real issues on GEML won't be solved in the next decade.
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Where has the renewal of the OHLE got to? Travelling between Liverpool Street and Shenfield today there were sections still with old wiring, new gantries up but not having anything connected to it, registration arms not replaced for all lines on a gantry, and also a significant length where new contact wire had been clipped onto the old green contact wire, in effect giving it two catenary wires :?. I thought at least that bit would have been complete by now, given they started renewals a few years ago? 
CockneySparrow
Member
No it involved a loop at Ely, they made a start well I say a start they put some kabins and some other machinery arrived as they made a yard next to the bridge that got damaged a couple of years ago, all that kit was there for nearly a year then all of a sudden it was all gone overnight, not sure what they actually achieved in that time its not visible,
As they changed their mind they had to hand the money back I believe
Thought they were supposed to be doubling the track between Soham and Ely throughout but that has stalled, also Soham station has gone quiet in recent months since they wasted that £37k on that report only to be told what we all know, "Soham needs a station" we can all clearly see that
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If I am honest I can't see the line ever being doubled or Soham getting a station back
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One other thing Bury to Soham is double, it the section between or just before where Soham station used to be through to Ely that aint
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Probably be replaced with the current ECML stock
90sWereBetter
Member
I'm sure "some people's" solution to the GEML problems will be to get rid of that evil, nasty Abellio company. 
But certainly, the Chelmsford bottleneck will be especially difficult to rectify, given the station is on a viaduct, and buildings surround both sides. The disruption in Chelmsford city centre will go on for years, if the decision is taken to four track it (which is highly unlikely).
There seems to be a speed restriction for intercity sets passing through Witham at present. I'm not sure if that's been there for years, or it was only implemented last year?
But certainly, the Chelmsford bottleneck will be especially difficult to rectify, given the station is on a viaduct, and buildings surround both sides. The disruption in Chelmsford city centre will go on for years, if the decision is taken to four track it (which is highly unlikely).
There seems to be a speed restriction for intercity sets passing through Witham at present. I'm not sure if that's been there for years, or it was only implemented last year?
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dk1
Veteran Member
I'm sure "some people's" solution to the GEML problems will be to get rid of that evil, nasty Abellio company.
But certainly, the Chelmsford bottleneck will be especially difficult to rectify, given the station is on a viaduct, and buildings surround both sides. The disruption in Chelmsford city centre will go on for years, if the decision is taken to four track it (which is highly unlikely).
There seems to be a speed restriction for intercity sets passing through Witham at present. I'm not sure if that's been there for years, or it was only implemented last year?
There's a 60mph TSR on both up & down lines at Witham. They've been on since the relaying there months ago & not sure why they are still on. The one on the down has been shortened in the last couple of weeks.
I'm sure "some people's" solution to the GEML problems will be to get rid of that evil, nasty Abellio company.
But certainly, the Chelmsford bottleneck will be especially difficult to rectify, given the station is on a viaduct, and buildings surround both sides. The disruption in Chelmsford city centre will go on for years, if the decision is taken to four track it (which is highly unlikely).
There seems to be a speed restriction for intercity sets passing through Witham at present. I'm not sure if that's been there for years, or it was only implemented last year?
The 60 at Witham and Colchester have been in for ages, they got put in after track renewals and have been in ever since. (Edit: Beaten to it!!)
Will Quince is having a meeting with the relevant people regarding infrastructure upgrades on GEML. Think he realises Norwich in 90 project isn't going to work without track updates.
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As i live in Norwich i tend to use this line to get anywhere south/west. The infrastructure is the problem that won't be solved by having new trains. The whole line from NR to Liv St needs to be re-wired with signal improvements and level crossings replaced then we may start to see some small improvement. But i can't imagine Notwork Rail paying for that. If we do get any new trains they will only be new to us.
Also the line south of Shenfield seems to be a haven for suicides.
I think the only way a NR in 90 will be achieved is to change the running pattern of the London trains : the xx00 trains could be Diss/Ipswich only then the xx30 could be Diss/Stow/Ips/mann/Col/Chelms/Stratford & London then the xx00 won't be far off 90 mins.
Tel
Also the line south of Shenfield seems to be a haven for suicides.
I think the only way a NR in 90 will be achieved is to change the running pattern of the London trains : the xx00 trains could be Diss/Ipswich only then the xx30 could be Diss/Stow/Ips/mann/Col/Chelms/Stratford & London then the xx00 won't be far off 90 mins.
Tel
HSTEd
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Considering upgrades seem to go far more overbudget than new construction now.....
Build a Great Eastern Shinkansen, from a rebuilt King's Cross, through Cambridge and then to Norwich, with a branch to Peterborough.
The line would be sufficiently quick that even using the existing slow line from Cambridge to Ipswich it would be competitive with the GEML much of the time.
Build a Great Eastern Shinkansen, from a rebuilt King's Cross, through Cambridge and then to Norwich, with a branch to Peterborough.
The line would be sufficiently quick that even using the existing slow line from Cambridge to Ipswich it would be competitive with the GEML much of the time.
JamesRowden
Established Member
The plan proposed in Network Rail's `Improving Connectivity' (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/publications/long-term-planning-process/improving-connectivity/) document is for the fastest hourly London to Norwich service to run from London Kings Cross and only stop at Finsbury Park and Cambridge. I have attached a diagram of the full proposed Anglia off-peak service. In the plan trains are timetabled to connect to each other rather than to simply stop at the most important stations. The plan would require upgrades to the infrastructure. Extra stops are added to the GEML express services between Ipswich and Norwich in order to create better connections.
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'Improving Connectivity' between the pantograph and the ancient sagging knitting in summer would be a start :roll: I'm surprised it's taken this long - they all but gave up on the West Anglia Inners past Cambridge Heath. Whoever inherits this mess after Abellio will have a job on their hands in it's current state :cry:
I concur; having worked at Great Eastern, seen AGA from the inside and been travelling the line for 20 years, there's no quick fix possible. But it could be made a hell of a lot better without spending a fortune on major new track layouts.
Here are my pet gripes on things that could be fixed quickly:
1. The OHL - sections need ripping out and replacing - should have been done years ago
2. Trackside circuits and signals - the electrics in many places need replacing and protecting from the elements - every time it's wet they fail
3. Freight - trains have been made too long to use old passing loops (they used to be able to sit at Witham for example, but very rarely these days), and NR regulation is poor (they have a history of allowing Freight trains out of Felixtowe/Stratford both early and late with what seems to be utter disregard of the GA service)
4. Vegetation - NR's complete failure to not only learn a lesson, but keep it learnt about clearing trackside vegetation. It just goes round in a circle, repeating first as tragedy and then as farce...
5. The rolling stock. Abellio unnecessarily bid to reduce the units hired. Sure, if they were reliable they could have gotten away with it. They aren't and Abellio have failed to improve things. Some trains are short-formed more often than they run with the full monty!
6. The Timetable. I'm sure everyone has their pet horror story. I really can't figure out some of the decisions on the Evening Peak (morning isn't too bad if everything actually runs).
7. The complete chaos when something goes wrong. Seeing that it happens quite a lot.
Here are my pet gripes on things that could be fixed quickly:
1. The OHL - sections need ripping out and replacing - should have been done years ago
2. Trackside circuits and signals - the electrics in many places need replacing and protecting from the elements - every time it's wet they fail
3. Freight - trains have been made too long to use old passing loops (they used to be able to sit at Witham for example, but very rarely these days), and NR regulation is poor (they have a history of allowing Freight trains out of Felixtowe/Stratford both early and late with what seems to be utter disregard of the GA service)
4. Vegetation - NR's complete failure to not only learn a lesson, but keep it learnt about clearing trackside vegetation. It just goes round in a circle, repeating first as tragedy and then as farce...
5. The rolling stock. Abellio unnecessarily bid to reduce the units hired. Sure, if they were reliable they could have gotten away with it. They aren't and Abellio have failed to improve things. Some trains are short-formed more often than they run with the full monty!
6. The Timetable. I'm sure everyone has their pet horror story. I really can't figure out some of the decisions on the Evening Peak (morning isn't too bad if everything actually runs).
7. The complete chaos when something goes wrong. Seeing that it happens quite a lot.
dk1
Veteran Member
Well blow me sideways. The 50mph TSR on the Down at Burston (between Diss & Norwich) has been removed after 3 years. Now this was put on due to sighting at a foot crossing shortly after a fatality at Needham market for the same reason. I couldnt see tonight whether the crossing has at long last been closed but the walk boards are still there. It was felt odd to be doing a ton again here.
As for Witham the 60 is now only over the pointwork at the South of the station but alongside dozens of new wooden sleepers have been delivered so we can but hope. There is a 20mph ESR on the point work where you go main to Electric on the Down before Shenfield so hopefully that may be done over the weekend unless the rail part has to be specially ordered.
As for Witham the 60 is now only over the pointwork at the South of the station but alongside dozens of new wooden sleepers have been delivered so we can but hope. There is a 20mph ESR on the point work where you go main to Electric on the Down before Shenfield so hopefully that may be done over the weekend unless the rail part has to be specially ordered.
That's quite some plan. That would be huge frequency increases on many lines- eg from 1tph to 4tph Cambridge-Newmarket would be a massive leap
306024
Established Member
Meanwhile on planet Earth the view is that a set of crayons was left for someone to scribble with. No chance of the infrastructure schemes needed to make that lot work ever getting started.
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