How DOO would have made a failure of pre booked passenger assist worse

[Blindtraveler]

Hello all.

Returning from London today on a lengthy and elaberat routing on multiple dirt cheep split advances one of those all to common failures of the system we all love to hate, i.e. passenger assist occured.

The pre booked assistance to help me transfer from the Snow Hill Lines to the WCML wasnt there at the time my sheduled train arrived. The guard of the Worcester train I had traveled from Moor Street to Smethwick Galton Bridge on held his service long enough to call controll and alert them to the fact that the failure of pre booked assistance had effectively stranded a blind man several hundred miles from home with a wallet full of bargain AP's and, thank god, padding in his shedule, put there deliberately in the form of an hour at Crewe for just such an eventuality.

Once said train had departed I myself called LM customer relations both to alert/remind them I was still here and had no desire to spend my evening at Galton Bridge but also to get the wheels of a complaint in motion whilst the toc deicided what to do about me. For those interested the station is normally staffed but had become unstaffed today at lunchtime for reasons yet unknown and under investigation and during this destaffing processs the fact that pre booked assistance, arranged over a week previous was required was overlooked.

LM sent someone from Snow Hill to assist me but I was now of course late and got later still due to the person taken ill on train at Dudly Port so consiquently arrived back in Edin and hour down.

The point here however is that if this had been a DOO service, there would have been no guard to start things off and whilst the DOO appologists on here will say that I could have simply used help points or called LM have any of you tried finding a help point if your blind? They come in many shapes, sizes and locations which is unhelpfull. And whilst I phoned them to complain it was a far more constructive call knowing the situation was being attended to where as if it had not got started yet I would still have been angry and would have not been as helpful to customer relations.

How do any advocates of DOO answer this? How do existing DOO drivers feal?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Oh and anyone who turns this into a slagging match or suggests that disabled pax are a nusence and shouldnt be traveling (both of which have happened before) will be reported, and if an all out bitch fest starts Im asking for the thread to be locked.

 

[maire23]

I have to agree with you on this one. I'm a wheelchair user and I have on a frustrating amount of occasions had my assistance not show up and if it weren't for the guard I would have been stuck.

 

[Mugby]

Cutting costs = more profit. that's all!

 

[jon0844]

Oh and anyone who turns this into a slagging match or suggests that disabled pax are a nusence and shouldnt be traveling (both of which have happened before) will be reported, and if an all out bitch fest starts Im asking for the thread to be locked.

I am shocked that has ever happened to you (or anyone). Recently I met a pregnant lady who told me that she's had commuters telling her not to travel on peak trains if she needs a seat, and one tell her that she shouldn't have got pregnant if she needed to travel.

I think I know who I'd rather have not travelling!

 

[Blindtraveler]

In theory the OBS/second member of non safety chritical staff on a train could have done the same job today but in practice, could they have held the service whilst they guaranteed that help was on the way?
Would they have even cared? My experience of most Southern OBS says not.

 

[mirodo]

I will repeat a comment I made back in October of last year surrounding the failure of a booked assist on a DOO service:

I alighted at East Croydon one evening last week. No guard on board, and a wheelchair passenger in my carriage who had been boarded at Clapham Junction and also wished to alight. There was no sign of any assistance. Another passenger held the door while I went in search of a member of station staff, who I eventually found dispatching a service on the opposite platform. Had it not been for our intervention, the lady (who had three small children with her) would have faced being over-carried to the next station.

The original comment, for reference is located here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2727204#post2727204

 

[Taunton]

If I were to encounter a blind/disabled/equivalent person looking in need of assistance, I would set about handling it, seeing it sorted at the Help Point or whatever. So would the majority of others here.

Such issues can arise on or off railway premises. People are pretty helpful. It doesn't need to be "your job" to give a hand to anyone. I have seen countless pregnant passengers board trains over time (especially now there are TfL badges), and never heard a single inappropriate comment described above as somehow being common.

 

[bramling]

I am shocked that has ever happened to you (or anyone). Recently I met a pregnant lady who told me that she's had commuters telling her not to travel on peak trains if she needs a seat, and one tell her that she shouldn't have got pregnant if she needed to travel.

I think I know who I'd rather have not travelling!

One potential issue is that a seemingly innocent "please I need help" (e.g. helping lift a pushchair onto a train) can occasionally be a staged way of getting a helpful person to put their own belongings down, which will then be whisked away by an accomplice whilst the owner's back is turned. Had someone try this on me at Llundudno Junction of all places last year, but sussed it as have seen the same m.o. on cctv many times. Sad times, although this sort of thing has probably been going on for years.

 

[yorkie]

If I were to encounter a blind/disabled/equivalent person looking in need of assistance, I would set about handling it, seeing it sorted at the Help Point or whatever. So would the majority of others here.

Such issues can arise on or off railway premises. People are pretty helpful. It doesn't need to be "your job" to give a hand to anyone. I have seen countless pregnant passengers board trains over time (especially now there are TfL badges), and never heard a single inappropriate comment described above as somehow being common.

True. What is really needed is a visible and active staff presence.

I do not see what this has to do with the operation of a train; London Overground trains are DOO but the stations are all staffed, for example, and the network overall is safer than ever and popularity has soared.

And there are routes with DOO trains with highly visible staff presence, yet other routes with Guards where you rarely - if ever - see staff anywhere in the passenger areas (even TPE is like that on an evening on most trains! The excellent TPE staff who are on this forum being notable exceptions)

Providing there are visible staff on trains and/or on stations (ideally both, though we have to be realistic and accept not all stations are going to be staffed) then people are going to be able to get the help they need.

I am all for a visible staff presence but I just can't see how this particular argument has anything to do with the method of operation of the trains.

 

[grumblingalong]

True. What is really needed is a visible and active staff presence.

I do not see what this has to do with the operation of a train; London Overground trains are DOO but the stations are all staffed, for example, and the network overall is safer than ever and popularity has soared.

And there are routes with DOO trains with highly visible staff presence, yet other routes with Guards where you rarely - if ever - see staff anywhere in the passenger areas (even TPE is like that on an evening on most trains! The excellent TPE staff who are on this forum being notable exceptions)

Providing there are visible staff on trains and/or on stations (ideally both, though we have to be realistic and accept not all stations are going to be staffed) then people are going to be able to get the help they need.

I am all for a visible staff presence but I just can't see how this particular argument has anything to do with the method of operation of the trains.

Because when the bean counters learn they can "operate" a train with only a driver they almost unanimously decide that the second person is no longer required. That's what it's got to do with the operation of the train.

Until the situation changes to have DCO with a guaranteed second person on board every train this will be the case.

 

[yorkie]

Because when the bean counters learn they can "operate" a train with only a driver they almost unanimously decide that the second person is no longer required. That's what it's got to do with the operation of the train.

Not really, and that isn't the case on the Scotrail Strathclyde electrics.

Until the situation changes to have DCO with a guaranteed second person on board every train this will be the case.

What about London Overground with a guaranteed person at the station?

 

[AlterEgo]

Because when the bean counters learn they can "operate" a train with only a driver they almost unanimously decide that the second person is no longer required. That's what it's got to do with the operation of the train.

Until the situation changes to have DCO with a guaranteed second person on board every train this will be the case.

Essentially, you're saying DOO isn't bad in principle but you don't trust management to retain a second member of staff.

That's not an argument against DOO but merely an indication that you don't trust management, which is a totally different issue.

 

[Blindtraveler]

But in the event of staff shortage, how willingly would LO destaff said station without checking as by the looks of it happened yesturday? Would an OBS or similar have been able to physically delay the service whilst this was sorted? Would they even care?

With the greatest of respect I feel LO is a poor example as TFL have transformed it into such an opperation that its service ethic is nearer the tube than a NR style setup.

 

[grumblingalong]

Not really, and that isn't the case on the Scotrail Strathclyde electrics.

What about London Overground with a guaranteed person at the station?

But it is on the vast vast majority of services where drivers control the doors as you well know and has been done to death.

And yes a person at each station can be considered comparable, but with cuts to staffing at LU how long are the staff on the Overground safe? Also that works for London, it wouldn't work in Anglia and would be rather tricky in your part of the world too.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And we all know how easily 2nd member of staff can not turn up due to 101 reasons but the train still runs

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Flipping this on its head -

If this had been a DCO/DOO service, it is possible the second person (OBS or whatever), would have been able to let the first train depart and assist the passenger to their onward connection.

In that scenario, DOO would be offering improved customer service.

 

[AlterEgo]

But in the event of staff shortage, how willingly would LO destaff said station without checking as by the looks of it happened yesturday? Would an OBS or similar have been able to physically delay the service whilst this was sorted? Would they even care?

With the greatest of respect I feel LO is a poor example as TFL have transformed it into such an opperation that its service ethic is nearer the tube than a NR style setup.

But that's a good thing - they've turned it into a fully staffed, conspicuously safe operation.

People who don't mind the advent of DOO don't necessarily want a destaffed Railway - this has been done to death over the last couple of years.

 

[Blindtraveler]

LO is a good service no doubt about it but a LO style opperation wouldnt work in many places. The irony of the fact that LO's opperating method would work excillently on the Snow Hill and X City routes in Birmingham is not lost on me and am quite surprised the new franchise doesnt mandate such.

In reply to the OBS being able to assist the passenger and hense provide a better service, would they though? Would the line not be that they need to stay with this train? Genuine question as my experiences of OBS ahave been poor

 

[mallard]

Even with a guard, there's no guarantee that someone busy operating the doors at the back of a 12-car set is going to notice someone near the front who needs assistance disembarking.

The railways need more customer facing staff, having a full-time "customer service agent" on the train is better for the customers than having someone who's part-time "customer service", but has to revert to "safety critical train staff" at every station call.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People who don't mind the advent of DOO don't necessarily want a destaffed Railway

Indeed. I want a modernised railway, but I am more than happy to see the same overall number of staff on it.

So for example, a bank of 5 TVMs rather than 2 ticket office windows[1], with those two staff out on the station assisting passengers (maybe one on the platforms and one showing people how to use the TVMs) rather than just using a machine a passenger can quite easily use.

It's a valid concern that the TOCs may not be willing to do this and may prefer to destaff, but that's in some ways a separate issue.

[1] If I was designing a large station staffing concept I'd actually reinstate the sit-down travel centre (take a numbered ticket for your turn, sit down, no glass, take your time to discuss what you want) but completely remove the classic ticket windows. A TVM can't replace the personal, non-rushed advice of the former, but can quite effectively replace the latter. Same number of staff, better service.

 

[AlterEgo]

LO is a good service no doubt about it but a LO style opperation wouldnt work in many places. The irony of the fact that LO's opperating method would work excillently on the Snow Hill and X City routes in Birmingham is not lost on me and am quite surprised the new franchise doesnt mandate such.

In reply to the OBS being able to assist the passenger and hense provide a better service, would they though? Would the line not be that they need to stay with this train? Genuine question as my experiences of OBS ahave been poor

The OBS is, in theory, more available to assist with passengers as they are not needed for the dispatch process and therefore don't have to hang around doors all the time on journeys with frequent stops. A guard has to stay with the train too!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Indeed, but was simply asking as most OBs iv had the pleasure of meeting wouldnt have been much use here

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, but was simply asking as most OBs iv had the pleasure of meeting wouldnt have been much use here

I don't think that's an issue with the concept of an OBS, rather with the poor motivation of staff on GTR, the causes of which are fairly apparent to anyone who cares to look.

 

[XDM]

In the event of a second member of train crew not turning up for work at short notice would passengers prefer the whole train be cancelled & thousands of people, including women with babies & old folk, on both legs of the train's journey having to stand for an hour on wet & freezing platforms? No is the answer. It would be far better to let the train run DOO. The disabled passenger, if in the rare event no one else could help them onto the train( I & my friends always go out of our way to help the blind & disabled) could make the call that the guard made re later legs of the journey. Everyone happy.

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, but was simply asking as most OBs iv had the pleasure of meeting wouldnt have been much use here

That doesn't mean they're bad as a concept.

Your booked assistance didn't materialise at the station, but that doesn't mean staffed stations are a bad concept!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Going back to Blindtraveler's original experience, two things occur to me:

1) This does prove that if change is to come, ALL the consequences need to be fully considered: in this case, does disability assistance rely on the guard? If so, then the introduction of DOO will require an alternative way to provide disability assistance to be in place
2) There is something of a point that Blindtraveler's problem is not actually a failure of the ontrain provision (to which DOO directly relates) but of the station service. That - again - says to me that thought needs to be applied. If LM had thought, then in the knowledge that station staff had gone off, someone should have been sent to meet Blindtraveler. This, of course, doesn't meet the more desirable position that people with disabilities should be able to travel without having to give prior notice.

 

[Domeyhead]

Hello all.

Returning from London today on a lengthy and elaberat routing on multiple dirt cheep split advances one of those all to common failures of the system we all love to hate, i.e. passenger assist occured.

The pre booked assistance to help me transfer from the Snow Hill Lines to the WCML wasnt there at the time my sheduled train arrived. The guard of the Worcester train I had traveled from Moor Street to Smethwick Galton Bridge on held his service long enough to call controll and alert them to the fact that the failure of pre booked assistance had effectively stranded a blind man several hundred miles from home with a wallet full of bargain AP's and, thank god, padding in his shedule, put there deliberately in the form of an hour at Crewe for just such an eventuality.


Once said train had departed I myself called LM customer relations both to alert/remind them I was still here and had no desire to spend my evening at Galton Bridge but also to get the wheels of a complaint in motion whilst the toc deicided what to do about me. For those interested the station is normally staffed but had become unstaffed today at lunchtime for reasons yet unknown and under investigation and during this destaffing processs the fact that pre booked assistance, arranged over a week previous was required was overlooked.

LM sent someone from Snow Hill to assist me but I was now of course late and got later still due to the person taken ill on train at Dudly Port so consiquently arrived back in Edin and hour down.

The point here however is that if this had been a DOO service, there would have been no guard to start things off and whilst the DOO appologists on here will say that I could have simply used help points or called LM have any of you tried finding a help point if your blind? They come in many shapes, sizes and locations which is unhelpfull. And whilst I phoned them to complain it was a far more constructive call knowing the situation was being attended to where as if it had not got started yet I would still have been angry and would have not been as helpful to customer relations.

How do any advocates of DOO answer this? How do existing DOO drivers feal?

I don't think many people are in favour of Driver Only Operation as the OP envisages it, but much of what is described by the RMT as DOO is actually a refocussing of on-train staff to customer service and revenue protection, with door control performed by the driver. As stated by the TOC, trains would only run without an OBS in exceptional circumstances, and I am sure that the OP would prefer to remain "at risk" on a train to his chosen destination rather than be turfed off at some remote intermediate stop to await a replacement bus service just because a guard was due to the leave the train and his relief hadn't shown up. It's funny how the RMT is so often driven to a confrontational position by the tiniest ambiguity or absence of an explicit phrase from an employer yet is happy to promulgate the general public's misunderstanding of the difference between Driver Controlled Door operation with OBS retained, and a true DOO such as that used by London Underground. Which is it that the OP is referring to here?

 

[ComUtoR]

People who don't mind the advent of DOO don't necessarily want a destaffed Railway - this has been done to death over the last couple of years.

Why is it acceptable to de-staff a train but not to de-staff a station. Passengers spend more time on a train than at a station.

I can assure you that those who are pushing to introduce DOO are also pushing to de-staff the entire railway.

I would also suggest that it is much much easier to remove staff from stations because they are infinitely more replaceable. Ticket office staff can be replaced easily (and are being reduced) by TVM's and other ticketing options. With passengers moving towards more modern ticketing methods, the need for a traditional ticket office is greatly reduced.

Platform staff are required less and less because passengers are much more autonomous that ever. There are plenty of apps that will tell you a platform and will even give you various routing options to get to your destination and there is plenty of CIS and PIS options available when you on the station. Help points etc can also mean you can reduce staff.

Passengers can get from A-B without ever needing to speak to another human let alone a member of staff.

If we are putting a member of staff on every single platform then why not go that one step further and have bat and flag dispatch at every platform. No more DOO equipment or CD/RA equipment required.

One of our staff dispatch platforms got DOO equipment a few years back. What happened ? They removed the staff presence.

 

[Taunton]

We live in London on the DLR. Ever since it opened, zero station staff, and just one staff member on each 6-car non-gangwayed train. As it is totally accessible it probably gets a higher percentage of such users than any other system. Yet you never see a problem. Why not?