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How fast are trains currently?

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throwaway

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Hey,

I'm not a train enthusiast, as many people here certainly appear to be (and seemingly fairly knowledgeable too), however I am interested in being able to get to places...quick

Northern recently announced that they'll be placing 100Mph trains on it's lines in 2019, and I was wondering a) how fast our trains are now (Google searches appear to be about high speed trains a lot more than any thing else) b) I imagine 100Mph, is the max speed, and not the average speed when going from station to station? So it's probably more useful for say...Leeds to Manchester, than Leeds to Skipton?

If they do put it on the Leeds to Skipton line, would people notice any real differences? Though I imagine they will for Leeds to Manchester?

THanks in advance.
 
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D365

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Acceleration rates generally range between 0.5 m/s^2 for diesel and 1.0 m/s^2 for the fastest electric units. Multiple units are generally better at putting power down on the rails due to a great number of powered axles.
 

Joseph_Locke

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Hey,

I'm not a train enthusiast, as many people here certainly appear to be (and seemingly fairly knowledgeable too), however I am interested in being able to get to places...quick

Northern recently announced that they'll be placing 100Mph trains on it's lines in 2019, and I was wondering a) how fast our trains are now (Google searches appear to be about high speed trains a lot more than any thing else) b) I imagine 100Mph, is the max speed, and not the average speed when going from station to station? So it's probably more useful for say...Leeds to Manchester, than Leeds to Skipton?

If they do put it on the Leeds to Skipton line, would people notice any real differences? Though I imagine they will for Leeds to Manchester?

THanks in advance.

15x (e.g. 150, 152, etc.) are top speed 75mph. Newer diesel units (17x) are typically 90 or 100mph, as are 323 electrics. 185s and 350s can do 110mph (where permitted)

If you change nothing about the infrastructure, the only gains you can make are by using trains that accelerate better (like 220s, Javelins).
 

edwin_m

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I think 185s are 100mph not 110mph. These are the diesel trains used by Transpennine Express mainly between Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Scarborough, Middlesbrough and Newcastle. TPE will be getting some faster stock within a few years so will be able to run at 125mph where the line allows it, for example between York and Darlington.
 

IanXC

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Hey,

I'm not a train enthusiast, as many people here certainly appear to be (and seemingly fairly knowledgeable too), however I am interested in being able to get to places...quick

Northern recently announced that they'll be placing 100Mph trains on it's lines in 2019, and I was wondering a) how fast our trains are now (Google searches appear to be about high speed trains a lot more than any thing else) b) I imagine 100Mph, is the max speed, and not the average speed when going from station to station? So it's probably more useful for say...Leeds to Manchester, than Leeds to Skipton?

If they do put it on the Leeds to Skipton line, would people notice any real differences? Though I imagine they will for Leeds to Manchester?

THanks in advance.

Electric Northern services out of Leeds are already timed for 100mph as the EMUs in use are capable of that, so I wouldn't expect any change on Leeds to Skipton journeys for instance. Leeds to Manchester via Rochdale is, on the other hand currently timed for 75mph so one might expect to see journey time improvements here.
 

D365

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In terms of speeding up journies though, average speed (i.e. rate of acceleration) is much more important on the majority of suburban routes.
 

IanXC

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In terms of speeding up journies though, average speed (i.e. rate of acceleration) is much more important on the majority of suburban routes.

It is typically, however in this instance there are significant parts of the route where enhancement works have taken the line speed well above 75mph - during disruption with nothing ahead of it a 158 (taking advantage of its 90mph maximum speed) can often gain 15 minutes over the 75mph schedule.
 

Flying Phil

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If that is a more general question, the the HSTs (old but still in use) are I believe limited to 125 mph, Pendulinos designed for 140mph but track/signalling limited to 125 mph, class 222s 125mph(?).
 

fowler9

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I think that on a stopping route acceleration is going to be more important than maximum speed. Apologies, others have already said this.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Maximum speed is not the whole story.
Speeds on regional lines are often sub-optimal, using either 75mph trains on 100mph track or vice versa.
Timetables often seem to be left at "Sprinter" level (lowest common denominator) when most trains could manage a faster schedule.
Manchester-Cardiff is mostly 90mph (with 110mph to Crewe), and normally has 90/100mph trains on it (158/175).
But when a 75mph 150 deputises (not uncommon) it somehow usually manages to keep time.
You also hear the operators say that they will "bank" the benefit of higher line speeds to balance the increasing delays at stations.
Virgin XC said that when speeds went from 90mph to 125mph between Birmingham and Derby.
 

edwin_m

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Maximum speed is not the whole story.
Speeds on regional lines are often sub-optimal, using either 75mph trains on 100mph track or vice versa.
Timetables often seem to be left at "Sprinter" level (lowest common denominator) when most trains could manage a faster schedule.
Manchester-Cardiff is mostly 90mph (with 110mph to Crewe), and normally has 90/100mph trains on it (158/175).
But when a 75mph 150 deputises (not uncommon) it somehow usually manages to keep time.
The 150 gains a bit on acceleration at lower speeds, and also on dwell time at stops (with double-width doors at one thirds and two thirds people can get off and on much more quickly, and on a 158 in particular the doors are very slow to open and close). So particularly on a route with frequent stops it can often keep up reasonably well. There is also some extra time allowed to recover from unforeseen delays, so if those delays don't occur on a particular run then the time is available to compensate for slower running.
 

mike57

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If that is a more general question, the the HSTs (old but still in use) are I believe limited to 125 mph, Pendulinos designed for 140mph but track/signalling limited to 125 mph, class 222s 125mph(?).

And Class 91's and Mk4's on the east coast main line designed for 140mph and limited to 125mph for the same reason. And HST haven't always been limited to 125mph although that is their official top speed. I can remember one late running journey to London from Newcastle pre Selby diversion where there was no doubt in my mind 125mph was exceeded, although by how much I don't know. I think about 15 mins late running was made up.
 

throwaway

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Hi,

A bit old, however my main question was really how much faster the new Northern trains (British rail class 331)might be. In the press they talked about how they go at 100Mph. I then realised later that we already had those (British Rail Class 333) before they replaced it with pacer trains on the line, though it's as fast as the 333s because it skips a couple of stations

It doesn't look like anything has changed there then, except perhaps with maybe acceleration time.
 

hexagon789

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Hi,

A bit old, however my main question was really how much faster the new Northern trains (British rail class 331)might be. In the press they talked about how they go at 100Mph. I then realised later that we already had those (British Rail Class 333) before they replaced it with pacer trains on the line, though it's as fast as the 333s because it skips a couple of stations

It doesn't look like anything has changed there then, except perhaps with maybe acceleration time.

Essentially they are replacing older late-1980s British Rail Class 321 and 322 units with the new 331s. The 331s will work alongside the 333s.
 

ComUtoR

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Doesn't matter how fast your train is. You can't beat the timetable :)
 

30907

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Hi,

A bit old, however my main question was really how much faster the new Northern trains (British rail class 331)might be. In the press they talked about how they go at 100Mph. I then realised later that we already had those (British Rail Class 333) before they replaced it with pacer trains on the line, though it's as fast as the 333s because it skips a couple of stations

It doesn't look like anything has changed there then, except perhaps with maybe acceleration time.
Remember that the 331s will work in Lancashire as well, where 100mph where permitted will be a big difference. But as you say, it's the acceleration.
 

hooverboy

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Remember that the 331s will work in Lancashire as well, where 100mph where permitted will be a big difference. But as you say, it's the acceleration.
The mainline speeds have improved significantly,but rural lines for the most part are still stuck in the dark ages.

50/60/75mph is still typical,even if you are running a TPE 185 set over it.
not at all uncommon for 2 hours to do 50 or 60 miles.
 

Railperf

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Better acceleration is handy as is better braking capability. But until the full fleet is operating, the timetable is unlikely to be accelerated. This means some services will end up with longer dwell times if they reach stations early -never a bad thing. Class 800 vs HST saves at least one minute per station stop for each acceleration to 125mph.
where maximum speed is lower and the acceleration differential is not as wide, the time gain is much less.
For example a Class 710 EMU vs 172 DMU accelerating to a maximum 45mph saves only 10 to 15 seconds per station stop. any advantage gained by faster acceleration can be lost because some drivers may coast more to avoid arriving too early and cautious braking. No driver wants to risk overshooting the platform or suffering a SPAD.
 

RLBH

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Some representative average speeds, based on timetabled direct services from Birmingham.

CrossCountry Class 170 (100mph):
  • 49 mph to Nottingham
  • 56 mph to Cardiff
London Northwestern Class 350 (110mph)
  • 56 mph to Liverpool
CrossCountry Class 220/221 (125mph)
  • 53 mph to Southampton
  • 56 mph to Manchester
  • 58 mph to Leeds
  • 63 mph to Newcastle
  • 65 mph to Sheffield
  • 66 mph to Bristol
  • 71 mph to Derby
Virgin Class 390 (140mph)
  • 74 mph to Glasgow
  • 83 mph to London
Obviously, none of the average speeds actually get close to the maximum speed of the units, between acceleration and deceleration requirements, intermediate stops, and permitted line speeds lower than the maximum speed of the trains. It's clear, though, that running on a fast route with as few stops as possible gives the best average speed. The fastest in my (limited) database is London to Newcastle at an average of 95mph, stopping only at York (where curvature means trains have to slow considerably anyway) and at Darlington, on a route that's almost entirely 125mph.
 

Jozhua

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I get the impression at the moment most work is done to try and increase average speeds, rather than maximum speeds. Usually this involves making curves wider, optimising junctions and improving signalling to keep trains moving as close to their top speed as possible.

Anything over 125mph requires the introduction of in-cab signalling, as the conclusion was that 125mph is the reasonable limit of being able to see signals/signs clearly.
However, I don't believe there is much of this type of signalling, with the exception of HS1/Crossrail and other mass transit outside of the NR network.

Most high speed capable trains can do 140mph and the Class 80X's are already fitted with in cab signalling equipment. I'd reckon the line with the most chance of seeing 140mph at some point in the near-ish future is perhaps the ECML...

If signalling is to be replaced, it makes sense to do an in-cab system and at that point 140mph should be a given, even if it's just used to make up time to begin with!
 

edwin_m

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I get the impression at the moment most work is done to try and increase average speeds, rather than maximum speeds. Usually this involves making curves wider, optimising junctions and improving signalling to keep trains moving as close to their top speed as possible.

Anything over 125mph requires the introduction of in-cab signalling, as the conclusion was that 125mph is the reasonable limit of being able to see signals/signs clearly.
However, I don't believe there is much of this type of signalling, with the exception of HS1/Crossrail and other mass transit outside of the NR network.

Most high speed capable trains can do 140mph and the Class 80X's are already fitted with in cab signalling equipment. I'd reckon the line with the most chance of seeing 140mph at some point in the near-ish future is perhaps the ECML...

If signalling is to be replaced, it makes sense to do an in-cab system and at that point 140mph should be a given, even if it's just used to make up time to begin with!
The problem here is that increases in maximum speed reduce the journey time for the fastest trains but have little or no benefit for the slower ones, either because they are slowing/accelerating for stops so can't reach the new speed or because they use stock that isn't permitted to run that fast. So there is inevitably a capacity penalty and although cab signaling does offer some capacity improvement it's probably not enough to offset this downside. As many of our routes are close to full, especially the intercity ones where higher speeds would be most attractive, it's unlikely much will happen short of building HS2 and other brand new routes.
 

eMeS

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Cutting the time before the powered doors open when at a station could help reduce journey times. (I'm thinking of the electric powered multiple units from Euston through Bletchley to stations north etc.)
 

hexagon789

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Some representative average speeds, based on timetabled direct services from Birmingham.

CrossCountry Class 170 (100mph):
  • 49 mph to Nottingham
  • 56 mph to Cardiff
London Northwestern Class 350 (110mph)
  • 56 mph to Liverpool
CrossCountry Class 220/221 (125mph)
  • 53 mph to Southampton
  • 56 mph to Manchester
  • 58 mph to Leeds
  • 63 mph to Newcastle
  • 65 mph to Sheffield
  • 66 mph to Bristol
  • 71 mph to Derby
Virgin Class 390 (140mph)
  • 74 mph to Glasgow
  • 83 mph to London
Obviously, none of the average speeds actually get close to the maximum speed of the units, between acceleration and deceleration requirements, intermediate stops, and permitted line speeds lower than the maximum speed of the trains. It's clear, though, that running on a fast route with as few stops as possible gives the best average speed. The fastest in my (limited) database is London to Newcastle at an average of 95mph, stopping only at York (where curvature means trains have to slow considerably anyway) and at Darlington, on a route that's almost entirely 125mph.

I believe the fastest timetabled is a Newark to Grantham at 114mph iirc
 

Snow1964

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Years ago OS Nock used to a fastest trains update every year.
On Southern the only journeys that averaged over 70mph was London-Southampton (non-stop in 1980s)
Prior to introduction of IC125 struggled to find any much above 80mph average

The IC125 were not built with any form of limiter so could often do few mph above 125mph if driver chose
But they could take 6-8 mins to get from a stop to 120+mph, a modern electric could do it in under 4 minutes

Deceleration (max) : Tread braked coaches slowed about 7% of gravity, disk braked 9%
Modern anti-lock, and faster valves etc has pushed it up to nearer 11% (with emergency braking about 13-14%)

Only on longer non stop sections is top speed important, acceleration and deceleration tend to be more relevant.
As an example 15 miles at 90 mph takes 10 minutes, an increase to 100mph takes 9 minutes, so only saves a minute
At 120mph (two miles a minute) 15 miles will take 7.5 minutes
But if there is a low speed interuption (weak bridge, speed restricted turnout or corner) the slowing down and restoring speed can add 3-4 minutes
so one hefty short restriction can offset the effect of 10mph rise (from 90 to 100 mph) for 50 miles

So on most routes, biggest time savings are easing the very low speed sections.
If have to crawl at 20mph into a platform, a 10-12 car train has to cover its length (approx sixth of mile) at the low speed which takes 30 seconds (20mph is a mile every 3 minutes). Whilst 30 seconds doesn't sound much, if journey has 15 stops, have added 7-8 minutes (if slow approach happens at each station).
 

The Lad

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The biggest savings come from increasing the slowest speed restrictions, and those in otherwise fast sections.
 

MarkyT

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Years ago OS Nock used to a fastest trains update every year.
On Southern the only journeys that averaged over 70mph was London-Southampton (non-stop in 1980s)
Prior to introduction of IC125 struggled to find any much above 80mph average

The IC125 were not built with any form of limiter so could often do few mph above 125mph if driver chose
But they could take 6-8 mins to get from a stop to 120+mph, a modern electric could do it in under 4 minutes

Deceleration (max) : Tread braked coaches slowed about 7% of gravity, disk braked 9%
Modern anti-lock, and faster valves etc has pushed it up to nearer 11% (with emergency braking about 13-14%)

Only on longer non stop sections is top speed important, acceleration and deceleration tend to be more relevant.
As an example 15 miles at 90 mph takes 10 minutes, an increase to 100mph takes 9 minutes, so only saves a minute
At 120mph (two miles a minute) 15 miles will take 7.5 minutes
But if there is a low speed interuption (weak bridge, speed restricted turnout or corner) the slowing down and restoring speed can add 3-4 minutes
so one hefty short restriction can offset the effect of 10mph rise (from 90 to 100 mph) for 50 miles

So on most routes, biggest time savings are easing the very low speed sections.
If have to crawl at 20mph into a platform, a 10-12 car train has to cover its length (approx sixth of mile) at the low speed which takes 30 seconds (20mph is a mile every 3 minutes). Whilst 30 seconds doesn't sound much, if journey has 15 stops, have added 7-8 minutes (if slow approach happens at each station).

And those slow tortuous approaches to major stations are often through complex throat junctions so other conflicting routes in and out of the station are also blocked for a considerable time, affecting capacity
.
 

Mordac

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And those slow tortuous approaches to major stations are often through complex throat junctions so other conflicting routes in and out of the station are also blocked for a considerable time, affecting capacity
.
Like the tedious crawl on approach to New Street.
 
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