How genuine mistakes can become much more serious

[miami]

Ah, the long-standing question of what the 'appropriate' ticket should be. I agree that an off-peak ticket is the correct one to sell if it valid on that service. And that's exactly what I've been sold.
Yes, it is a breach of the byelaws and so isn't advisable. However, here's a secret: it's quicker and easier for a guard to sell a ticket than to report you for potential prosecution. So in all likelihood, if you have the right attitude, they'll do just that.

The virgin guard insisted he'd sell me an anytime single, but actually sold me an offpeak when it came down to it. The FGW guard was too busy chatting to the buffet person to make a £130 sale (Don't they get commission?)

 

[najaB]

The FGW guard was too busy chatting to the buffet person to make a £130 sale (Don't they get commission?)

Most do, can't say for sure about FGW.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . I believe that case was about someone passing a note saying "I'll pay if you ask me", rather than seeking out the guard. If you're on a 2 hour journey and the guard doesn't do a ticket check, I have very little sympathy with the TOC.

The significance in Corbyn was its clarification of the contractural position between a Railway Company and a passenger - the requirement to be contracted to be conveyed, which in turn, requires the defined process of contracting to be completed before travel or if not possible, at whatever opportunity to form a contract is provided (i.e. Railway Company sells passenger a ticket - passenger pays Railway Company for travel. Railway Company becomed contracted to convey passenger and provide indemnity against many risks, passenger is under no obligation to fulfil their part by travelling as contracted.)

I've attempted the buy-on-board twice on long distances in recent times, in both cases I found the guard before boarding. The Virgin time he said "Oh no, I'll have to charge you full fare". I said fine, I'd been away from home for 2 weeks and thanks to a tedious . . . . .

I advise you never to do this again.
Please be aware that it is a criminal offence to take a journey by train without having contracted to do so at whatever opportunity to form that contract was provided.

 

[miami]

I advise you never to do this again.
Please be aware that it is a criminal offence to take a journey by train without having contracted to do so at whatever opportunity to form that contract was provided.

What, before boarding ask the guard if I can buy a ticket on board, if I'm told "yes" I board, if I'm told "no" I don't board. And you're saying that's a criminal offence? Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[island]

Please be aware that it is a criminal offence to take a journey by train without having contracted to do so at whatever opportunity to form that contract was provided.

But a passenger has a defence in such a case if he was given permission by an authorised person to board.

 

[crehld]

I advise you never to do this again.
Please be aware that it is a criminal offence to take a journey by train without having contracted to do so at whatever opportunity to form that contract was provided.

As the passenger had permission from the guard (an authorised person) to board and buy the ticket on board no offence has been committed as per railway byelaw 17(3)(iii) or 18(3)(iii). As the passenger actively sought out the guard and offered to pay the fare to him/her an intent to pay the correct fare has been demonstrated and therefore a regulation of railways act prosecution cannot succeed. Perhaps you could enlighten us all as to specifically which criminal offence has been committed in these circumstances?

 

[najaB]

Perhaps you could enlighten us all as to specifically which criminal offence has been committed in these circumstances?

I suspect Dave misread the post he quoted as I'm also puzzled as to what offence could have been committed.

 

[sheff1]

I advise you never to do this again.
Please be aware that it is a criminal offence to take a journey by train without having contracted to do so at whatever opportunity to form that contract was provided.

Are you saying that if you get permission to board from an authorised person and you then board with the expectation that the same authorised person will sell you a ticket, as promised, once the train is underway, you have still committed a criminal offence because you did not pay (contract) at the exact moment you were given permission - even though the authorised person did not require payment at that time ?

 

[6Gman]

Well then they should read the posters that clearly state what might happen and buy the correct ticket before travelling

Well, yes but the posters are often ambiguous to say the least.

At Crewe - a Virgin station - there was a large poster explaining that discounted tickets could only be bought prior to travel and that if you boarded the train without a ticket you would have to buy an ordinary open ticket.

Which is Virgin WC policy.

BUT there was also a much less prominent sign explaining the London Midland penalty fare scheme. Perhaps there were further posters explaining the different (again) policies of ATW, NR and EMT!

Depending on which operator's train you boarded failure to purchase could result in:

a) buying an open ticket;
b) paying a PF;
c) an £80 settlement;
d) prosecution.

Thank goodness Crewe now has barriers!

 

[miami]

Well, yes but the posters are often ambiguous to say the least.

At Crewe - a Virgin station - there was a large poster explaining that discounted tickets could only be bought prior to travel and that if you boarded the train without a ticket you would have to buy an ordinary open ticket.

Which is Virgin WC policy.

Sounds like a clear 18.3.ii defence then - "there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket"

 

[island]

Sounds like a clear 18.3.ii defence then - "there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket"

No, no it isn't.

 

[6Gman]

Sounds like a clear 18.3.ii defence then - "there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket"

But only - presumably - on a Virgin train.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Sounds like a clear 18.3.ii defence then - "there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket"

It isn't, because it isn't giving permission to buy on board, it is stating that they will not sell you a discounted ticket on board.

Posters and announcements tend to be very ambiguous though, which remains a big problem. TPE's auto-announcer says "if you choose to walk past an open ticket office...", which implies that buying on board is a legitimate choice, just one with a financial penalty.

 

[miami]

It isn't, because it isn't giving permission to buy on board, it is stating that they will not sell you a discounted ticket on board.

Depends on the wording, I spent 10 minutes walking around Crewe station this morning and couldn't see any posters like this apart from the standard Penalty Fare ones (you may have to pay a penalty fare and buy a ticket)

 

[sheff1]

Posters and announcements tend to be very ambiguous though, which remains a big problem. TPE's auto-announcer says "if you choose to walk past an open ticket office...", which implies that buying on board is a legitimate choice, just one with a financial penalty.

And also implies that if you do not walk past an open ticket office* you can buy the full range of fares on board.

* For example if you enter Sheffield station from the Supertram stop and go straight to the platform without going anywhere near the ticket office.

 

[miami]

And also implies that if you do not walk past an open ticket office* you can buy the full range of fares on board.

* For example if you enter Sheffield station from the Supertram stop and go straight to the platform without going anywhere near the ticket office.

Or perhaps if you hop past the ticket office?