How green are Trains ?

[387star]

As opposed other forms of transport ?

Greta Thunberg could inspire a rail resurgence!

 

[hexagon789]

As opposed other forms of transport ?

Greta Thunberg could inspire a rail resurgence!

Well they can carry more people than buses or cars and even aeroplanes and can coast for miles. The low coefficient of friction of steel wheels on steel rails means less energy is required to move the same mass than with road transport.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It also rather depends on how well used they are. I rather suspect that the Voyager carriage currently taking my wife and me (and presumably the driver) from Reading to Brum is using more fuel per occupant than my Citroen C1 would for the equivalent trip.

 

[387star]

Yeah I think it was said railways are less green than it was thought

 

[Broken70]

No, most seem to be red and white in the UK at the minute, ill get my coat

 

[td97]

http://transformscotland.org.uk/a-green-journey-to-growth/

We estimate that while a flight from Edinburgh to London emits 177kg CO2 per passenger, and existing trains (‘HSTs’) emit 34kg per passenger, that an Azuma will emit only 28kg — 84% less than a flight.

 

[387star]

http://transformscotland.org.uk/a-green-journey-to-growth/

This is fantastic!

 

[ComUtoR]

How many passengers on a plane compared to how many on the train ? How many in total per day for both ?

 

[Welly]

Very green....

 

[387star]

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...visit-extinction-rebellion?CMP=share_btn_link

Sure we all know who this legend is but just in case

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/20/gret...rney-join-extinction-rebellion-london-9276389

 

[387star]

Teenage activist Greta Thunberg has said she hopes to join Extinction Rebellion protests as she sets off for London. The 16-year-old founder of school strike for climate, from Sweden, will be travelling to the UK by train, in a bid to reduce her carbon footprint. She tweeted alongside a photo of herself: ‘Now awaits two days of train travel. Next stop London!’


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/20/gret...inction-rebellion-london-9276389/?ito=cbshare

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

From.metro

 

[Minilad]

It also rather depends on how well used they are. I rather suspect that the Voyager carriage currently taking my wife and me (and presumably the driver) from Reading to Brum is using more fuel per occupant than my Citroen C1 would for the equivalent trip.

That can't be right. As we all know every single journey operated by a Voyager is full and standing throughout

 

[AM9]

Very green....
View attachment 61871

So after you've added all of the CO2 and pollutants of all NR's 'yellow trains' to the total UK rail environmental impact and see what the increased impact per passenger/tonne km is. I doubt that it makes a noticeable difference. The smoke from all of the the worst locos/DMUs is probably less than that emitted from every passenger aircraft or all the badly adjusted IC road vehicles. The picture is irrelevant to this thread.

 

[edwin_m]

Well they can carry more people than buses or cars and even aeroplanes and can coast for miles. The low coefficient of friction of steel wheels on steel rails means less energy is required to move the same mass than with road transport.

Sorry to be pedantic, but the loss of energy in the wheels is nothing to do with friction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_resistance

Rolling resistance, sometimes called rolling friction or rolling drag, is the force resisting the motion when a body (such as a ball, tire, or wheel) rolls on a surface. It is mainly caused by non-elastic effects; that is, not all the energy needed for deformation (or movement) of the wheel, roadbed, etc. is recovered when the pressure is removed.

Despite greater rolling resistance, in most circumstances buses and coaches probably have less emissions than trains, mainly because their weight per passenger is less. However all road vehicles produce significant particulate pollution from tyre wear, which trains don't.

How many passengers on a plane compared to how many on the train ? How many in total per day for both ?

The figures quoted are per passenger so are probably the best comparison of the alternatives a passenger could choose between to do the same journey. However the detail gets very complicated.

When looking at public transport emissions there is always the issue that if that passenger hadn't travelled on that day the vehicle would still have made the journey, with only a small reduction in emissions due to the reduced weight. So the "marginal" emissions of carrying the extra passenger will be much smaller, although still bigger for the aircraft as extra weight on an aircraft uses more fuel than the same amount of extra weight on a train. However if total passenger numbers changed over time then the operators would start changing the capacity or frequency of their services so the emissions would change accordingly - this will generally happen more quickly with an aircraft as most train operators are obliged to maintain roughly the same services for the duration of their franchises.

You also see emissions per seat quoted, which don't take account of whether that seat is occupied or not, so flatter operators with low seat occupancy.

 

[2HAP]

Great Western Railways trains are green, a deep green. Does that answer your question?

 

[LOL The Irony]

It also rather depends on how well used they are. I rather suspect that the Voyager carriage currently taking my wife and me (and presumably the driver) from Reading to Brum is using more fuel per occupant than my Citroen C1 would for the equivalent trip.

Well today is an exception for obvious reasons. Also as bad as a Voyager is, I'd take an empty one over a Citroen C1.

 

[matt_world2004]

High utilisation electric trains are greener than bicycles. but low utilisation electric trains are not.

 

[hexagon789]

Sorry to be pedantic, but the loss of energy in the wheels is nothing to do with friction.

Well my knowledge was basic at best, most of it is snippets recalled from a BR training video called something like - "Steel wheel, steel rail".

 

[al78]

https://www.withouthotair.com/c20/page_118.shtml

Discusses energy use of different modes of transport in the form of kWh per passenger km.

 

[hexagon789]

I think the thing that has stuck with me about coasting at least is that it was apparently (possibly still is), possible to coast from Tring on the WCML the while way into Euston at 100mph if one shut-off at Tring.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think the thing that has stuck with me about coasting at least is that it was apparently (possibly still is), possible to coast from Tring on the WCML the while way into Euston at 100mph if one shut-off at Tring.

That's 28 miles as the crow flies, must be at least 35 by rail. Impressive.

 

[najaB]

Very green....
View attachment 61871

Adjust your monitor, that's yellow.

 

[najaB]

I think the thing that has stuck with me about coasting at least is that it was apparently (possibly still is), possible to coast from Tring on the WCML the while way into Euston at 100mph if one shut-off at Tring.

It was done not that long ago during a power failure on the southern WCML - I can't remember the details just now but I think the driver managed something like Hemel Hempstead to Euston.

 

[DanDaDriver]

I think the thing that has stuck with me about coasting at least is that it was apparently (possibly still is), possible to coast from Tring on the WCML the while way into Euston at 100mph if one shut-off at Tring.

You can easily Coast from Radlett to St Pancras. St Albans is possible as well if you are early.

 

[edwin_m]

Well my knowledge was basic at best, most of it is snippets recalled from a BR training video called something like - "Steel wheel, steel rail".

No problem, common mistake including on a TV documentary I saw not so long ago.

 

[Master29]

Deleted

 

[najaB]

Despite greater rolling resistance, in most circumstances buses and coaches probably have less emissions than trains, mainly because their weight per passenger is less.

It's not quite as simple as that though - as other have pointed out, trains can coast a lot more than buses/coaches so they'll be drawing power a lot less. Also, a bus will be drawing power for much longer (e.g. it's 9.5 hours from Glasgow to London by bus versus 4.5 by train).

 

[Doctor Fegg]

High utilisation electric trains are greener than bicycles. but low utilisation electric trains are not.

...[citation needed]?

 

[thenorthern]

Great Western Railway trains are Green.

One thing to remember is that trains do consume a lot of fuel but at the same time they carry a lot more people than cars/busses can at much faster speeds. Also trains are very efficient machines as they only require about 22 Brake Horsepower per Tonne to move which is must less bhp per tonne than even a very small car such as a Smart car.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

You can easily Coast from Radlett to St Pancras. St Albans is possible as well if you are early.

I would have thought so - bit of a dip Radlett to Elstree (river valley) , but then fine. Certainly in steam days - nothing would be added to the fire south of Tring and probably Harpenden , one would coast quite easily just keeping a sharp eye out and enough steam to get you away were you checked. (comments from actual drivers I talked to in my career - many of which were long serving ex firemen / drivers etc)

Of course in the Welsh Valleys , a perfect scenario where coal trains were effectively gravitated to the coast , the problem being keeping them under control and stopping where neccesary........