A report paid for by a train operator finds taking the train most favourable.
A report paid for by a train operator finds taking the train most favourable.
True it was paid for by a train operator, but which of the facts do you have a problem with?A report paid for by a train operator finds taking the train most favourable.
That's 28 miles as the crow flies, must be at least 35 by rail. Impressive.
It was done not that long ago during a power failure on the southern WCML - I can't remember the details just now but I think the driver managed something like Hemel Hempstead to Euston.
No problem, common mistake including on a TV documentary I saw not so long ago.
I have a problem with simply taking for face value research paid for by any industry seeking to benefit from such research.True it was paid for by a train operator, but which of the facts do you have a problem with?
As you should. Now, which of the facts do you dispute (note, facts not conclusion)?I have a problem with simply taking for face value research paid for by any industry seeking to benefit from such research.
Actually, it was slightly more impressive than I remembered. The distance was shorter (Bushey to Euston) but the train started from a stand and arrived only a few minutes late! Thread here: Train driver 'freewheels' broken down train 13 MILES to London Euston after a power cutImpressive.
Actually, it was slightly more impressive than I remembered. The distance was shorter (Bushey to Euston) but the train started from a stand and arrived only a few minutes late! Thread here: Train driver 'freewheels' broken down train 13 MILES to London Euston after a power cut
That's 28 miles as the crow flies, must be at least 35 by rail. Impressive.
Where did I mention a dispute on numbers?As you should. Now, which of the facts do you dispute (note, facts not conclusion)?
I would have thought so - bit of a dip Radlett to Elstree (river valley) , but then fine. Certainly in steam days - nothing would be added to the fire south of Tring and probably Harpenden , one would coast quite easily just keeping a sharp eye out and enough steam to get you away were you checked. (comments from actual drivers I talked to in my career - many of which were long serving ex firemen / drivers etc)
Of course in the Welsh Valleys , a perfect scenario where coal trains were effectively gravitated to the coast , the problem being keeping them under control and stopping where neccesary........
Just over 31 1/2 miles Tring to Euston. I have spoken to drivers who shut off at 110 whilst in the cutting north of Tring, and were still doing 80 at Willesden.
The following chart is from the Rail Industry Decarbonisation Task Force's report in January this year. The figures date back to DfT's 2007 White Paper, so presumably nobody has redone them since then! Since 2007 cars, planes and electric trains will have improved a bit - cars and planes through better fuel efficiency and electric trains because coal has largely gone from the generation mix and been replaced by renewables.
The notes are worth reading: Data assumes the following load factors: urban bus 20%, intercity coach 60%, intercity rail 40%, all other trains 30%, domestic airlines 70%, and cars 30%. Road, air and diesel-powered rail vehicles’ emissions have been increased to take account of refinery losses and electric powered vehicles take into account losses in the grid.
grams CO2 per passenger km
-----------------------------------50-------------100-------------150-----------200------------250
View attachment 61902
The following chart is from the Rail Industry Decarbonisation Task Force's report in January this year. The figures date back to DfT's 2007 White Paper, so presumably nobody has redone them since then! Since 2007 cars, planes and electric trains will have improved a bit - cars and planes through better fuel efficiency and electric trains because coal has largely gone from the generation mix and been replaced by renewables.
The notes are worth reading: Data assumes the following load factors: urban bus 20%, intercity coach 60%, intercity rail 40%, all other trains 30%, domestic airlines 70%, and cars 30%. Road, air and diesel-powered rail vehicles’ emissions have been increased to take account of refinery losses and electric powered vehicles take into account losses in the grid.
grams CO2 per passenger km
-----------------------------------------------50--------------100--------------150------------200-------------250
View attachment 61902
There’ll be an awful lot of trains not moving anywhere if your 22bhp/t is correct...Great Western Railway trains are Green.
One thing to remember is that trains do consume a lot of fuel but at the same time they carry a lot more people than cars/busses can at much faster speeds. Also trains are very efficient machines as they only require about 22 Brake Horsepower per Tonne to move which is must less bhp per tonne than even a very small car such as a Smart car.
There’ll be an awful lot of trains not moving anywhere if your 22bhp/t is correct...
I was thinking that. An HST is slightly under 10BHP/t I think.
So after you've added all of the CO2 and pollutants of all NR's 'yellow trains' to the total UK rail environmental impact and see what the increased impact per passenger/tonne km is. I doubt that it makes a noticeable difference. The smoke from all of the the worst locos/DMUs is probably less than that emitted from every passenger aircraft or all the badly adjusted IC road vehicles. The picture is irrelevant to this thread.
That goes for anything. When I worked in a car dealer's workshop, there was a guy driving break-neck around south London most of the time in a van collecting needed spare parts. Buying them only as needed saved stocking them - minimised the capital and the cost of running the van and driver went straight to the customer. It's the "Just in Time" idea.I wonder what the figures look like if you factor in all those Network Rail vans, 4x4's and even motorbikes used by MOM's and maintenance staff?
Amazing graph - very informative.
Don’t we need some sort of really simple, legally enforced indicators to show the current efficiency level ? Something like the traffic light system on food. It would be interesting to know what stopping patterns all of the above are based on. It would be interesting to know how many domestic flights are as low as 70% load factor (none of the ones I’m on). It would be interesting to know what account is made for cargo travelling with passengers. It would be interesting to know the difference between a Flybe Dash Q400 Turboprop and a jet aircraft. It would be interesting to see the difference on a BiMode Train, such as the Azuma, the difference in performance south of Edinburgh and north of Edinburgh. It would be interesting to see the difference 12 years of regenerative braking on rail, huge efficiencies in CO2 in small cars (pursuing lower tax bands), and aircraft fleet entirely replaced since 2007 on the basis of lower emissions (largely for Airbus A320 series on domestic flights). So many permutations it is hard to elaborate much beyond the “Plane Bad, Megabus good” mantra we are all instinctively aware of these days.
Since '07, as well as the vehicle-related factors average loadings on most rail routes are likely to have increased, while average loadings on many provincial bus services may have decreased (though it's hard without detailed figures to hand to estimate what effect withdrawal or cutting back of many bus services would have on the average).
Meanwhile fuel economy of modern aircraft has improved, bus emissions are incrementally improved, and older (generally) higher emission cars are steadily taken off the road replaced by newer (generally) lower emission cars, consumer confusion over diesel notwithstanding.
Emissions per equivalent vehicle are generally improving in all modes, though the number of people living here has been increasing. Some people are travelling more often and for greater distances, for exampl longer commutes seem to have become more commonplace, whilst for others technology and flexible working have reduced the need to travel every day.
Clearly with all of these (and more) different factors it's hard for even individual people working in the transport field to get a full picture of what's happening, let alone the average person to make an informed decision on what mode they choose to take if they want to minimise their impact. It probably wouldn't take an inordinate amount of resources for a government department (DFT? DECC?) to compile and update public data to inform people on a regular basis.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ot-electrifying-the-gwml.174227/#post-3744727It would be interesting to see the difference 12 years of regenerative braking on rail
The figures date back to DfT's 2007 White Paper, so presumably nobody has redone them since then! Since 2007 cars, planes and electric trains will have improved a bit - cars and planes through better fuel efficiency and electric trains because coal has largely gone from the generation mix and been replaced by renewables.
From the chart in post #42, the thing which most impresses me is that once there is a second person in the car (i.e. the load factor goes from 30% to 50%), the environmental factor of taking the bus/train instead virtually disappears.
Your mention of cost at the point of use, although not irrelevant in terms of motivating the choice of transport mode(s), is outside the scope of environmental considerations. What might seem cost effective now will likely need to be priced out of widespread use if it has an unsustainable impact on the environment, either local as might be the case for diesel, or global as would be for CO2 contributions.From the chart in post #42, the thing which most impresses me is that once there is a second person in the car (i.e. the load factor goes from 30% to 50%), the environmental factor of taking the bus/train instead virtually disappears. Even more so if you have to drive to get to a station in the first place, so your "train journey" becomes a hybrid. This is of course reflected in the cost, two people taking the train together is rarely a money-saver, unless your destination is one renowned for extortionate parking charges.
How are electric cars destroying the economy? And they are zero emision (ignoring tyres) at the point of use, which in cities, is very helpful.Then there is the evil scourge on our roads called the electric car which consumers think they are "doing their bit for the planet" by buying but in reality electric cars are highly inefficient, still contribute to CO2 and are destroying the economy but the government won't admit it.
How are electric cars destroying the economy? And they are zero emision (ignoring tyres) at the point of use, which in cities, is very helpful.