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How has Manchester lagged behind in information provision?

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Trackman

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Altrincham Interchange, which is owned and operated by TfGM and was completely rebuilt in 2014, has a large multimodal departures screen in the main concourse. But the bus section gives only timetabled information, which disappears as soon as the scheduled departure time has passed, even if the vehicle has not yet arrived.
I know, but what's the point?
First NW used to give fairly good realtime information (like say in TfL land) on say the bus-checker app so at least you would know if a bus is missing (so to speak). Diamond have a bus tracker but the data is not plumbed into the main UK Bus tracking system so speak, so you have to faff about on the web to see if a bus is coming. Even worse at an interchange or whatever as they might pull the service.
 
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Deerfold

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In fairness, this is something mostly favoured by enthusiasts. I'd like to suggest the majority of people who go to use the bus work on the time they plan to arrive, rather than turning up at the bus stop to know how long it's going to take to get there. We need to increase information beforehand (in whichever form) and keep bus stop information simple.
I was recently at a bus stop with someone who was only catching a bus as their car had just broken down. They were about to get the next bus into town until I advised them it would take over an hour, but in 10 minutes there would be a bus straight along the main road taking half as long. The stop listed different bus routes, but with just the final destination and departure time.
 

py_megapixel

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Next Stop Announcements are marmite material, as evidenced by the many discussions on this forum. Some people regard their absence as a blessing, others a dire state of affair
Yes, but the presence of the equipment on buses suggests that Stagecoach have decided they should be introduced - and indeed, they do work on 42 and 43 among a few others. So why not on all routes?

Probably just the classic "if the wheels turn, send it out" that pervades the industry (and rail, to a fair extent) and is simply not good enough.
The issue here is not equipment on the bus being faulty. It's that it's only activated on some routes - on most it just shows "Hannover Display Controller Connected" or just the current time
Pretty useless to be told that the display controller is connected if it's not actually displaying anything helpful!
 
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Deerfold

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This is more than likely to be a common experience with all tracking apps, given their (I presume) reliance on GPS tracking. It was a regular complaint of commuter coach passengers at Canary Wharf that the coach "suddenly bounced after five minutes static", having seemingly failed to realise a Satellite couldn't see it in the Limehouse Link tunnel. There may not be many tunnels in Manchester, but even bustimes only updates once a minute - that's a long time if it misses a ping.
Different tracking systems work differently. Many assume a bus hasn't moved if it's not tracking. iBus in London assumes the predictions at each stop are unchanged if it loses track of a bus (up to a point when it will remove all predictions).
With respect, this is really only something enthusiasts worry about. The general passenger is unlikely to know or care the bus has a fleetnumber, and as long as the company can associate what they need to in the back office, this is something that is "nice to have" and little else. I don't think this can really be used as a general example of poor information provision.
Indeed.
 

duncombec

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I was recently at a bus stop with someone who was only catching a bus as their car had just broken down. They were about to get the next bus into town until I advised them it would take over an hour, but in 10 minutes there would be a bus straight along the main road taking half as long. The stop listed different bus routes, but with just the final destination and departure time.
Fair story, and they would be one of minority for whom that information would be useful. That's not to say they should be ignored, just that it's a fairly rare circumstance - and they would have got into town anyway, just your advice helped them get there faster. (Would you have advised take bus 1 to location X, then change onto bus 2 into town for the same faster result, for example?)

Yes, but the presence of the equipment on buses suggests that Stagecoach have decided they should be introduced - and indeed, they do work on 42 and 43 among a few others. So why not on all routes?
I would think it easier to fit from the outset from the start rather than retrofit. Perhaps there is a plan, but it has been delayed - like so many other things - for that big C-word reason?

Different tracking systems work differently. Many assume a bus hasn't moved if it's not tracking. iBus in London assumes the predictions at each stop are unchanged if it loses track of a bus (up to a point when it will remove all predictions).
Thanks - I assumed not all were GPS-based, but couldn't think of likely alternatives! I've often had the impression that if the ticket machine "goes to sleep" (because nobody has boarded, or a long gap between changes of fare stage) that it doesn't "ping": I've seen it happen a bit in the evenings, where buses stop tracking just before the bus station, then 20 minutes later appear at the depot - presumably because there was no need for the machine to be activated until the driver signed off on arrival.
 

Bletchleyite

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Years ago Hamburg had a system based on buses communicating by infra red with receivers on bus stop posts, but that has long gone - GPS is perfect for it and doesn't require any complex kit - any smartphone (or Ticketer machine) could do it.
 

AB93

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What's been stopping TfGM putting RTI screens at bus stops then in past decades? That they as a major city lag so far behind is frankly incredible.

When I lived there a few years back, I could use an app to track live departures for buses no problem prior to reaching the stop. The trams? Nothing of the sort.
Some operators in Manchester only started real time information a few years ago. Arriva are normally considered one of the worst, if not the worst, major group, but if I recall they were well ahead of the rest in terms of real time information.
Maybe because Arriva has been providing real time information for a long time? In Manchester, Stagecoach and First didn't start providing it until much later, so there was little point in bus stop displays until relatively recently.
All the big groups have used ticket machines capable of providing an RTI feed for many many years now, your point does not make any sense. What there isn't much point doing, though, is providing an RTI feed to a transport authority to display on RTI screens at stops if there aren't actually any RTI screens at stops.

Neighbouring West Yorkshire, by contrast, has had RTI screens at stops - which can also display details of cancellations - for well over a decade.

Metrolink has had real time information at stops for about 10 years. It's also on the TfGM website.
The trams do have real time departures displayed on the stops though
What I actually said was "When I lived there a few years back, I could use an app to track live departures for buses no problem prior to reaching the stop. The trams? Nothing of the sort."

There was nothing on the TfGM website back then. That there were real time departures at the tram stop made it even worse, because clearly the data feeds existed, but not developed to be able to view remotely! Whereas the bus operators' apps did offer this feature.
So I had the choice, sitting in the office, of checking the bus app and seeing when the next buses were due live, or, walking (the longer distance to) the tram stop and hoping for the best that the screens wouldn't be a showing a large gap in service - or even worse - when I got there. The Metrolink fell over quite often at the time so I ended up mostly using the bus...
I was shocked by this when I last went to Manchester - a very large proportion of stops in Milton Keynes now have displays (though bizarrely not the secondary stops in the centre, which may simply be because the old style shelters don't have mountings for them), and shire counties / unitaries are not known for high investment in public transport.

If the 192 was in MK it would have them at every stop.
I'm glad someone agrees! Piccadilly Gardens not having any RTI screens for buses is almost unbelievable - there can't be any other comparable places in the UK without this?
 

Hophead

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The point here, as ever, is that it is not so much the regular traveller (who likely knows the route, fare and departure times useful to them), but the occasional or novice rider who needs the information. It's all very well saying "it's all on the app" but each operator has their own; is the occasional passenger expected to have the app installed, just in case? It may well be "on the internet" but, Google Maps aside, just how easy is it to find the information?

The bus stop is, or certainly should be, one of the principal marketing tools available. That means a clean flag (yes - really), and a list of the routes served, with departure times, or an easy to read timetable. Fare information should be provided as well. At a busy stop, of course there should be Real-Time information, ideally able to notify disruptions.

The point of it all is to give reassurance to prospective passengers.
 

py_megapixel

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there can't be any other comparable places in the UK without this?
Stockport bus station, before it closed a few months ago, is on a similar if not larger scale and had no real time information at all (and the temporary stops while it's being rebuilt still don't). Though that's also managed by TfGM!
 

AB93

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Stockport bus station, before it closed a few months ago, is on a similar if not larger scale and had no real time information at all (and the temporary stops while it's being rebuilt still don't). Though that's also managed by TfGM!
Yes! It's baffling more than anything, especially when they're building brand new multi-million pound bus stations!
 

Greybeard33

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It may well be "on the internet" but, Google Maps aside, just how easy is it to find the information?
In my experience, Google Maps is an excellent tool for bus journeys in GM. Especially for "challenging", one-off journeys that involve a change of bus in the suburbs and/or getting off at the right stop in an unfamiliar area.
 

Hophead

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In my experience, Google Maps is an excellent tool for bus journeys in GM. Especially for "challenging", one-off journeys that involve a change of bus in the suburbs and/or getting off at the right stop in an unfamiliar area.

I suspect that, as for much else internet-related, Google is the default option for most people.
 

py_megapixel

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Yes! It's baffling more than anything, especially when they're building brand new multi-million pound bus stations!
To be fair, Stockport bus station was absolutely dire and in desparate need of a major overhaul and better connections to the railway station, both of which it's now getting.

However, the technology for live information has existed for quite some time, and I see no reason they couldn't have put screens up in the existing bus station, then - when it came time to demolish - taken them down, stored them somewhere and re-installed them in the new one.
 

Greybeard33

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Live times were being shown for Stagecoach and Arriva, but not for Little Gem, when I was there a few days ago.
I concur live departure information is now displayed for some, but by no means all, bus departures at Altrincham Interchange. When I was there today there were only scheduled times for the majority of upcoming Arriva services, and I witnessed departure of a late running 245 and 263, both of which had disappeared from the screens. There were live times for the Stagecoach departures and for the Little Gem 288.
Worked when I was there, as did the identical one at Wythenshawe.
Yes, Metrolink live departures are now (at last!) displayed in the main concourse at Altrincham, though without platform information. And there is still no PID on the Metrolink Platform 2, several years after this platform was brought into routine use.

Considering the new Interchange was a "flagship" TfGM project, I think it exemplifies the (lack of) priority TfGM places on passenger information displays.
 
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