How has the Manchester Metrolink impacted Manchester's satellite towns?

[william]

Although the metrolink system as a whole is largely successful, how has it changed the fortune of the large satellite towns they serve which had previously been served by heavy rail. Have towns such as Bury and Oldham suffered a decrease in levels of connectivity as a result compared to what we can assume would've happened if they'd remained heavy rail links (improved frequency, reliability, electrification, etc).

The most qualified to answer would surely be residents or regular users of the routes.

 

[185]

New & Reopened Lines since 2010:

Positive
House prices up (eg Chorlton, Withington) with new retail surrounding several stations - become close-commuter-belt for Manchester.
Increased access to night-time economy (both between the local stops, and up into Manchester).
All lines running at absolute full & standing capacity in the peak hours - major increases in passenger numbers, a walk on 6min service.
New industry attracted to additional stations, as staff can get in easier (eg Shaw, Kingsway Business Park, Peel Hall, Manchester Airport (for Amazon)

Negative
East Didsbury & Oldham/Rochdale, line - Increase in serious Anti-Social behaviour due to unstaffed/rarely staffed stations & trams.
Full & Standing - often got to let 2-3 trams pass in peak hours due to too full to board.

 

[william]

The 1990's and on through the noughties heralded an urban renaissance nationally so it would be difficult to apportion how much of those benefits came as a result of the tram system or how things would compare if a heavy rail link had been maintained (complete with private sector investment that has occurred over this period). I guess you could compare journey times but that is far from telling the whole story.

@185 are/were you a resident or regular user of both systems?

 

[Watershed]

The premise seems a bit of a false dichotomy to me. If they'd remained heavy rail services, it's incredibly unlikely they would have been electrified, or even had much in the way of improvements.

Look at what's happened to the lines to New Mills, Rose Hill, Stalybridge etc. They have basically stayed unchanged in terms of journey times, frequency and even stock - whilst the Pacers have gone, it's largely still the same old 150s plying the route as 35 years ago!

As far as I can tell, the main disadvantages of the transfer were:

• The loss of true integrated ticketing with the National Rail network. A journey from Oldham to Bolton, for example, now requires splitting at Victoria and costs £10.40 Off-Peak, whereas a NR journey from Rochdale to Bolton costs £6.90. There is also no protection for missed connections between NR and Metrolink.
• The loss of fast services at peak times. However, this ultimately has little to do with the conversion itself, rather it's a decision about having a unified service pattern. And I'm sure for some flows the GJT is still lower, despite the increased journey times.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

'GJT' = Generalised Journey Time?

Which means what in simpler terms?

 

[davetheguard]

Gross Journey Time? i.e. total time for the entire journey end to end would be my guess.

 

[Llandudno]

The premise seems a bit of a false dichotomy to me. If they'd remained heavy rail services, it's incredibly unlikely they would have been electrified, or even had much in the way of improvements.

Look at what's happened to the lines to New Mills, Rose Hill, Stalybridge etc. They have basically stayed unchanged in terms of journey times, frequency and even stock - whilst the Pacers have gone, it's largely still the same old 150s plying the route as 35 years ago!

As far as I can tell, the main disadvantages of the transfer were:

• The loss of true integrated ticketing with the National Rail network. A journey from Oldham to Bolton, for example, now requires splitting at Victoria and costs £10.40 Off-Peak, whereas a NR journey from Rochdale to Bolton costs £6.90. There is also no protection for missed connections between NR and Metrolink.
• The loss of fast services at peak times. However, this ultimately has little to do with the conversion itself, rather it's a decision about having a unified service pattern. And I'm sure for some flows the GJT is still lower, despite the increased journey times.

The disappointing thing is that there is no reason why they can’t have integrated ticketing with the National Rail network….

Apart from the above the Metrolink system is fantastic compared to the sluggish, mainly diesel operated network of local trains to Rose Hill, New Mills, Stalybridge etc..

 

[swt_passenger]

Gross Journey Time? i.e. total time for the entire journey end to end would be my guess.

AIUI generalised journey time accounts for the average waiting time at the origin station, if you happen to show up at your own random preferred departure time. Also includes a factor to cover the inconvenience of interchanging. So it’s a slightly longer time than the travel time from the timetable.

 

[william]

And that's how you can spot a transport modeller.

 

[Watershed]

'GJT' = Generalised Journey Time?

Which means what in simpler terms?

Correct, sorry I should have defined it.

It's a measure of how long the journey would take on average, if you were to turn up to the station at a random point in time. For flows with a direct service, it's approximately equal to half the average interval between services, plus the average timetabled journey duration.

So even though some Metrolink flows are now slower than before conversion, the fact that frequencies are now higher 'should' more than offset this.

 

[LOL The Irony]

House prices up

That should really be a neutral aspect, as it's good or bad depending on which side of the market you fall.

 

[william]

Or how much house prices have risen compared to those that have a heavy rail link? House prices have rocketed nationwide since the early 1990's remember (except in Horden and certain areas of Bishop Auckland :P).

GJT: With frequencies of less than 20 minutes, I think half the headway goes out of the window and it's something like 10 minutes wait time as pax turn up for timetabled services rather than at random.

I'd agree GJT has probably reduced along the full route but the question specifically stated the larger satellite towns which I'm sure will have increased.

 

[Fishnchipsrule]

• The loss of true integrated ticketing with the National Rail network. A journey from Oldham to Bolton, for example, now requires splitting at Victoria and costs £10.40 Off-Peak, whereas a NR journey from Rochdale to Bolton costs £6.90. There is also no protection for missed connections between NR and Metrolink.

Oldham to Bolton Off Peak Return should be £7.80. Can be bought from the Metrolink TVM as a through ticket. Metrolink Zone 1/2/3 - Railzone 2 iirc.

 

[142blue]

Oldham to Bolton Off Peak Return should be £7.80. Can be bought from the Metrolink TVM as a through ticket. Metrolink Zone 1/2/3 - Railzone 2 iirc.

That's ludicrous for such a short journey in terms of distance between them

 

[Watershed]

Oldham to Bolton Off Peak Return should be £7.80. Can be bought from the Metrolink TVM as a through ticket. Metrolink Zone 1/2/3 - Railzone 2 iirc.

Ah, don't think you can buy it in the opposite direction though. And certainly no through ticketing beyond Greater Manchester.

 

[ARIC]

Ah, don't think you can buy it in the opposite direction though. And certainly no through ticketing beyond Greater Manchester.

It is available either way, but no, no through ticketing from outside GM.

 

[splashoutradio]

Fares from heavy rail stations within Greater Manchester, to any Metrolink stop can be found on BR Fares or RailwayData by submitting a destination such as "Metrolink Z1-3", with the last digit representing the zone of the Metrolink stop travelling to. At one point, there were through ticketing arrangements in place, for travel from any national rail station, although this no longer appears to be the case.

Railway Data Example (Bolton - Oldham)
BR Fares example (Bolton - Oldham)

 

[ARIC]

That's ludicrous for such a short journey in terms of distance between them

Is it that bad? £3.90 for a journey between towns 13 miles apart as the crow flies, 17 miles when routed through Manchester?

A journey from Manchester to Alderley Edge, same distance, but a much more direct route is more like £6 each way! In fact, a few random searches for towns 13-17 miles apart all give results around the £6 mark for each leg of a return journey.

 

[jfollows]

It is available either way, but no, no through ticketing from outside GM.

It's £12.40 Cheap Day Return off-peak Wilmslow-Bury, destination L005 GM METROLINK Z1-4, and back in 1996 I bought returns Wilmslow-Sale via Manchester and Metrolink, so I either misunderstand this or disagree with it.

PS Wilmslow is not in Greater Manchester


PPS And my partner bought and used this ticket a few weeks ago!

Or even .... from Milton Keynes which isn't in Greater Manchester either

 

[ARIC]

It's £12.40 Cheap Day Return off-peak Wilmslow-Bury, destination L005 GM METROLINK Z1-4, and back in 1996 I bought returns Wilmslow-Sale via Manchester and Metrolink, so I either misunderstand this or disagree with it.

PS Wilmslow is not in Greater Manchester

View attachment 107315
PPS And my partner bought and used this ticket a few weeks ago!

Or even .... from Milton Keynes which isn't in Greater Manchester either
View attachment 107352

Oh nice! I'd never been able to get someone to sell me one from Coventry or Stoke in the past, so assumed they didn't exist, and they aren't listed on the TfGM website so gave up trying! Will definitely recommend these for visitors in the future.

 

[jfollows]

My response to the original question is that I was a regular traveller to Sale from 1996 to 2008, with some breaks for working from home, working from a customer site, and work being relocated to Salford Quays for a year or so, because my IBM office was there.
Sale as a location might always have been OK as a place to live - there seem to be wide roads with trees and large houses. But the town centre in 1996 was pretty naff, and it improved significantly by 2008. Marks & Spencer, and Sainsbury's both moved in. More restaurants opened. The canal-side became more of a "feature".
Did Metrolink help? I don't know. Maybe Trafford Council did, or maybe didn't.
Personally, I found the turn-up-and-go frequency of Metrolink useful. I was a reverse commuter (from central Manchester) when I used it, which was after 9:30 because I would drive at 8am because I knew I would have a free office parking space, whereas tram was cheaper after 9:30.
I've been back since and it's a nice place to meet a friend for lunch. I wouldn't have said that in 1996.

 

[Jozhua]

Pretty sure Bury was already electrified!

Tbh, the service is pretty much "light metro" for most of the ex-heavy rail lines with pretty extensive grade separation, etc.

I liken Metrolink to being two systems, because the difference between the street-level and ex-heavy rail lines is so significant in terms of journey times and reliability.

For those ex-heavy rail lines, service is better. More frequent, better coverage and similar speed. No-one frequently travelling to Rochdale from the city centre is really using the tram anyway, it's better as an inter-town connection!

That said, trams have their limits and I think really the ex-heavy rail stuff should be getting a dedicated tunnel through the city, which will allow the creation of a "light metro" style service. Then the on-street tracks can focus on access to destinations closer to the city centre.

That should really be a neutral aspect, as it's good or bad depending on which side of the market you fall.

Yeah, well it shows that the appeal and quality of life of the area is increased, which is a positive. But at the same time, the existing housing market is inflexible in providing new supply in response to higher demand, so it inevitably ends up screwing a lot of people over. But that's a housing problem, rather than an issue with improving an area.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Although the metrolink system as a whole is largely successful, how has it changed the fortune of the large satellite towns they serve which had previously been served by heavy rail. Have towns such as Bury and Oldham suffered a decrease in levels of connectivity as a result compared to what we can assume would've happened if they'd remained heavy rail links (improved frequency, reliability, electrification, etc).

The most qualified to answer would surely be residents or regular users of the routes.

It gets much better penetration of Oldham town centre than Mumps station every did, the ticket prices are a lot cheaper than the bus and Metrolink is significantly more reliable for those towns than heavy rail ever was.

Bury town centre has had a large-scale revitalisation (brand new shopping centre and lots of new housing), largely due to the Metrolink I think. The connection to Piccadilly attracts a lot of Manchester commuters than the heavy rail link to Victoria on the periphery of the centre and Metrolink offers cheaper and more extensive service covering more of GM than a traditional point to point season ticket, the proliferation of increased frequency services feeding into Bury Interchange also shows the draw of the Metrolink as a fast link to and from Bury in general.

The new Rochdale Metrolink Interchange has shifted the focus of the town centre back down into the valley of the Roch, the link to the railway station is quite important because there's quite a steep hill in the way that Metrolink climbs. Plus others have already mentioned the quick links to business parks, this encourages workers to patronise town centre shops and restaurants on breaks, instead of eating from outlets within the business park or driving/bussing into central Mcr for a better selection.

I live in Lancs and commute to North Derbys some of the time, so have extensive experience of use of the Metrolink, especially in comparison to express bus and heavy rail.

 

[Chester1]

It gets much better penetration of Oldham town centre than Mumps station every did, the ticket prices are a lot cheaper than the bus and Metrolink is significantly more reliable for those towns than heavy rail ever was.

Bury town centre has had a large-scale revitalisation (brand new shopping centre and lots of new housing), largely due to the Metrolink I think. The connection to Piccadilly attracts a lot of Manchester commuters than the heavy rail link to Victoria on the periphery of the centre and Metrolink offers cheaper and more extensive service covering more of GM than a traditional point to point season ticket, the proliferation of increased frequency services feeding into Bury Interchange also shows the draw of the Metrolink as a fast link to and from Bury in general.

The new Rochdale Metrolink Interchange has shifted the focus of the town centre back down into the valley of the Roch, the link to the railway station is quite important because there's quite a steep hill in the way that Metrolink climbs. Plus others have already mentioned the quick links to business parks, this encourages workers to patronise town centre shops and restaurants on breaks, instead of eating from outlets within the business park or driving/bussing into central Mcr for a better selection.

I live in Lancs and commute to North Derbys some of the time, so have extensive experience of use of the Metrolink, especially in comparison to express bus and heavy rail.

Metrolink annoys "heavy rail purists" but its good for reaching the city centre and town centres. Light rail is much better to suited to the geography of Oldham and Rochdale. People tend to forget that Bury Interchange opened as a railway station in 1980, 12 years prior to the opening of Metrolink. However, Metrolink is more convenient at the Manchester end of the line.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Metrolink annoys "heavy rail purists" but its good for reaching the city centre and town centres. Light rail is much better to suited to the geography of Oldham and Rochdale. People tend to forget that Bury Interchange opened as a railway station in 1980, 12 years prior to the opening of Metrolink. However, Metrolink is more convenient at the Manchester end of the line.

Oh yeah, I get that Bury Interchange opened before, but services only operated to Victoria (it got much more convenient in Mcr City Centre as you said) and the trains were ancient with a non-standard electrification system.

Exactly, Rochdale and Oldham were never served very well by heavy rail on a local level - Rochdale could get a connection from Heywood/Bury and Middleton and potentially Bacup right down into the town centre if a connection were built in future, unlike with heavy rail.