How, in practice, does a wheelchair user travel on a DOO service (no second member of staff) from an unstaffed station?

[pompeyfan]

Slightly off topic, but I’ve read that OBS have been used as a competent person recently for activities such as DSD failures and examining the line... I didn’t think that was permitted?

 

[Horizon22]

My experience of this is that it is mostly communicating with the station staff and them deploying a ramp, phoning the destination station and aranging assistance at the other end. The TOCs I've worked at this worked well.

However, this of course doesn't work for unstaffed stations or stations with no accessible access. In practice, this very rarely becomes an issue because wheelchair passengers simply don't travel to those stations. Not ideal, but that is the reality of the situation. On occasions there has also been missed assistance. On these occasions (and again this is rare), the wheelchair passenger either a) accepts it and continues to another stop / destination (shocking but it does happen) b) pulls the passcom and the driver goes to assist. If all else fails, accessible taxis can be booked.

There is no ideal situation - without staffing every station from first to last train - and some TOCs are much more on the ball than others so my experienced of overcarried or missed assistance is rare, but theoretically there could be a major incident should a wheelchair passenger perhaps not used to the railway try and disembark from a train with a large gap unaided... Good to see the ORR requirements come out.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I don't think anybody should have to arrange their travel in advance, everything should be done to remove that unreasonable burden. Maps need to clearly show station and platform accessibility, and journey planners need to be able to plan a journey using knowledge about long walks, lifts and escalators (remembering that this isn't just about wheelchair users) and their real-time status. Ideally, a planner in this mode could arrange a taxi where necessary to avoid temporarily or permanently unsuitable locations. All that is relatively quick and cheap compared with extra staff and station rebuilding, and it's a start.

The rate at which stations are fixed is the government's choice. How much can they spend, over how many years? Unfortunately we can guess the answer to that at the moment. Fitting trains with automatic ramps as happening soon on Merseyrail seems *extremely* overdue.

 

[py_megapixel]

Fitting trains with automatic ramps as happening soon on Merseyrail seems *extremely* overdue.

The Merseyrail units don't really have ramps, rather steps. This sounds on the surface like needless pedantry, I realise, but what it means is that they won't be capable of bridging a significant vertical gap - only a horizontal one. On a railway like ours where the platforms have a huge variety of heights, the technology sometimes just... wouldn't work.

Perhaps some more "in the know" members could let us know whether the technology exists to have a proper ramp deployed automatically from underneath the door, as opposed to just a sliding step?

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

The Merseyrail units don't really have ramps, rather steps. This sounds on the surface like needless pedantry, I realise

No, it's a reasonable point, thanks for correcting me. It just seems like something can be done to fix this. You only need your mobility to be restricted a little bit to find some of the gaps, steps and curves we find around most of the network quite horrific.

 

[CyrusWuff]

On a slight tangent, the new Passenger Assist system (provided by a company called Transreport) is now live, with mobile apps for station staff and passengers due to be launched in the near future.

 

[DorkingMain]

Shame OBS' don't get the same Route Knowledge as Conductors... they should!

sadly that is the sort of degradation in the role that everyone predicted when it was switched from conductor to OBS. It was never just about "who opens and closes the doors"

 

[chiltern trev]

The Merseyrail units don't really have ramps, rather steps. This sounds on the surface like needless pedantry, I realise, but what it means is that they won't be capable of bridging a significant vertical gap - only a horizontal one. On a railway like ours where the platforms have a huge variety of heights, the technology sometimes just... wouldn't work.

Perhaps some more "in the know" members could let us know whether the technology exists to have a proper ramp deployed automatically from underneath the door, as opposed to just a sliding step?

But also remember Merseyrail had a big programme to standardise platform heights to provide level boarding so inclined ramp not required.

On my first week back commuting as lockdown ended, pre-booked assistance failed to turn up on 8 out my 10 journeys that week. Ended up getting myself off at Waterloo by wheelieing off the train on four of those and having to pull the green handle at FNB on the other four. In my 5 years of daily commuting into London as a wheelchair user, I've found pre-booking makes very little difference as to whether assistance is available



Buses manage powered ramps and don't need to stop in exactly the same spot every time and are dealing with a wide range of kerb heights.

A lot of buses do not have powered ramps - TfL contractual requirement?
The Stagecoach Cumbria buses have pull out or flip out ramps so I think that is Stagecoach non-London standard. Same for Arriva up here.

 

[OneOffDave]

A lot of buses do not have powered ramps - TfL contractual requirement?
The Stagecoach Cumbria buses have pull out or flip out ramps so I think that is Stagecoach non-London standard. Same for Arriva up here.

My point wasn't about which bus companies do or don't operate powered ramps but that if they can work in an environment where the kerb height varies and the distance from the kerb varies at every deployment then designing a system that can cope with a set of known variables like platform height and distance of the train from the platform.

Stations may differ but you are working within a closed set of variables unlike the effectively infinite locations that a bus encounters. After all, temporary bus stops can be put in place at the drop of a hat, temporary stations less so

 

[Meerkat]

My point wasn't about which bus companies do or don't operate powered ramps but that if they can work in an environment where the kerb height varies and the distance from the kerb varies at every deployment then designing a system that can cope with a set of known variables like platform height and distance of the train from the platform.

Stations may differ but you are working within a closed set of variables unlike the effectively infinite locations that a bus encounters. After all, temporary bus stops can be put in place at the drop of a hat, temporary stations less so

The buses round here that have automatic ramps had all the bus stops rebuilt with higher kerbs before they came into service. Involved losing a load of bus bays, with buses stopping in the road.

 

[SussexLad]

My point wasn't about which bus companies do or don't operate powered ramps but that if they can work in an environment where the kerb height varies and the distance from the kerb varies at every deployment then designing a system that can cope with a set of known variables like platform height and distance of the train from the platform.

Stations may differ but you are working within a closed set of variables unlike the effectively infinite locations that a bus encounters. After all, temporary bus stops can be put in place at the drop of a hat, temporary stations less so

I have to agree with you their. I'm not read up on all the variations in platform height but I presume it is normally a fairly limited range. The worst I ever saw was a tube train at a normal height platform but kind of irrelevant as even able bodied passengers truggled to get off it!

I still think at the very least someone should design a 3 part fold out ramp for trains. It would save a fair amount of time and back ache for station staff carrying ramps. Electric ramps are better but I suspect less reliable.

 

[mmh]

It isn’t, for two reasons:

1) DOO has been in place well before TOCs were even a thing.
2) DOO does not mean there must not be a second member of staff

And, as @flitwickbeds has pointed out, it doesn’t matter how many members of staff are on the train, if the platform isn’t accessible to / from the street then it’s irrelevant.

Spot on. And the elephant in the room people making it about DOO are conveniently ignoring is there are far fewer stations than there are trains, so staffing potentially accessible stations could possibly be cheaper than introducing guards on all trains.

 

[OneOffDave]

Spot on. And the elephant in the room people making it about DOO are conveniently ignoring is there are far fewer stations than there are trains, so staffing potentially accessible stations could possibly be cheaper than introducing guards on all trains.

What this won't cover is train failures at inaccessible stations/platforms. The driver will be looking after the train rather than assisting anyone.

Relying on station staff means a robust communications system between the origin station and the destination station and a process for managing any changes in stopping pattern due to disruption. Given how regularly this fails currently when using large well staff mainline termini, I'm extremely sceptical as to the reliability of it working on a wider scale. I'm not sure I can see all accessible stations being staffed for the whole of service either. Could make things like an evening trip to the theatre etc impossible rather than just difficult like it is now.

 

[yorkie]

Relying on station staff ....

Is what many operators that have Guards do anyway. Look at the issues people have had with LNER, for example.

I've not heard of many/any issues with, say, London Overground, yet I have heard of numerous issues with LNER.

This really isn't about the operation of the train; I think the OP is barking up the wrong tree with that suggestion.

 

[OneOffDave]

Is what many operators that have Guards do anyway. Look at the issues people have had with LNER, for example.

I've not heard of many/any issues with, say, London Overground, yet I have heard of numerous issues with LNER.

This really isn't about the operation of the train; I think the OP is barking up the wrong tree with that suggestion.

All LO stations are staffed throughout service which does make a difference. The impact is less on that kind of network when the gap between services is limited which might be why it's less 'newsworthy'. I'll have to check with Transport For All as they keep stats about that kind of thing for London. I've used LO twice and have had assistance fails both times. One needed the driver to get me off the train.

 

[yorkie]

All LO stations are staffed throughout service which does make a difference. The impact is less on that kind of network when the gap between services is limited which might be why it's less 'newsworthy'. I'll have to check with Transport For All as they keep stats about that kind of thing for London. I've used LO twice and have had assistance fails both times. One needed the driver to get me off the train.

It can happen anytime, anywhere.

The system itself needs to improve. Appropriate staffing levels are obviously a help, but I don't see how this job has to be done by a Guard (and indeed it isn't done by the Guard on many TOCs) so I still dispute the claim made by the original poster that this is down to the operation of the train.

 

[OneOffDave]

It can happen anytime, anywhere.

The system itself needs to improve. Appropriate staffing levels are obviously a help, but I don't see how this job has to be done by a Guard (and indeed it isn't done by the Guard on many TOCs) so I still dispute the claim made by the original poster that this is down to the operation of the train.

The key difference between it being done by station staff and someone guaranteed to be on the train is that the person on the train will be there 100% of the time that the wheelchair user is travelling whereas the member of station staff could be anywhere in the station as they will probably be doing other duties when not doing assistance. When the guard forgets it's normally not too long before they notice that they can't shut the doors or there's someone right alongside the train. Waiting for station staff can take 10 minutes plus in my experience. In some circumstances, having a dedicated assistance team can be counter productive as it gets treated as 'not my job' by other staff. At Waterloo I've had platform dispatch staff walk past and ignore me while I was stuck in the doorway waiting for a ramp who then threatened me with banning me from the station for being dangerous when I got myself off the train.

 

[Tio Terry]

In the past it has been up to the TOC to tell the DfT how they intend to comply with the requirements of the Equalities Act. Now that the DfT are going to be letting Management Contracts I assume that they will instruct the Managers to meet their legal requirements. It will be interesting to see if they dictate HOW they will meet them! The responsibility now rests with the DfT for ensuring that those they award contracts to adhere to the law.

 

[SussexLad]

It can happen anytime, anywhere.

The system itself needs to improve. Appropriate staffing levels are obviously a help, but I don't see how this job has to be done by a Guard (and indeed it isn't done by the Guard on many TOCs) so I still dispute the claim made by the original poster that this is down to the operation of the train.

Tell me if I have misunderstood but my view is...

For many TOCs the guards do it if there are no platform staff or if they see the platform staff haven't turned up. From my experience GWR, SWR and Southern have this two pronged approach and it is much better than just relying on one way. Further sometimes the guard reminds the platform staff and then you'll see them panicking.

So whilst DOO services can be used by passengers with reduced mobility it is inherently less reliable even at TOCs where every station has platform staff.

 

[Skoodle]

All LO stations are staffed throughout service which does make a difference. The impact is less on that kind of network when the gap between services is limited which might be why it's less 'newsworthy'. I'll have to check with Transport For All as they keep stats about that kind of thing for London. I've used LO twice and have had assistance fails both times. One needed the driver to get me off the train.

As a driver, only times I've seen fails has been for following reasons:
1. Poor communication between TOCs (ie Southeastern boarding a passenger at Denmark Hill and failing to notify Clapham Junction, LUL boarding a passenger at Canada Water and not passing on correct info etc)
2. Platform changes (Was supposed to arrive in to Platform 2 at Clapham Junction but was routed in to Platform 1, staff were waiting right at far end of Platform 2).
3. Passenger boarded with a mobility scooter at Dalston Junction in middle carriage, arrived at Canonbury with staff member waiting with ramp (before raised platform was put in). Staff boarded and looked and stepped off as no one was there. Closed doors and started to depart, only for PASSCOM to be pulled. Passenger had decided to go all the way through the train to the rear doors to be closer to the lifts.
4. Passenger using a wheelchair alighted at Shadwell with a friend, I had to jump out and tell them that despite there being a lift, there's stairs to get up there. Obviously given wrong information by someone earlier.

Those two fails you had are definitely two too many, and it saddens me that for an infrequent user, you have a 100% fail record. It really isn't like that normally.

 

[387star]

I once overcarried a wheelchair from Littlehaven to Horsham and being the driver I had no idea ! This after the short lived Passenger Hosts were dispensed with after Thameslink took over some Southern Routes

 

[OneOffDave]

I once overcarried a wheelchair from Littlehaven to Horsham and being the driver I had no idea ! This after the short lived Passenger Hosts were dispensed with after Thameslink took over some Southern Routes

Luckily never overcarried on the train. Have been 'busnapped' by the driver forgetting the ramp quite a few times. Once made aware most drivers stop immediately but some insist on taking you to the next stop

 

[spinba11]

As a driver, only times I've seen fails has been for following reasons:
1. Poor communication between TOCs (ie Southeastern boarding a passenger at Denmark Hill and failing to notify Clapham Junction, LUL boarding a passenger at Canada Water and not passing on correct info etc)
2. Platform changes (Was supposed to arrive in to Platform 2 at Clapham Junction but was routed in to Platform 1, staff were waiting right at far end of Platform 2).
3. Passenger boarded with a mobility scooter at Dalston Junction in middle carriage, arrived at Canonbury with staff member waiting with ramp (before raised platform was put in). Staff boarded and looked and stepped off as no one was there. Closed doors and started to depart, only for PASSCOM to be pulled. Passenger had decided to go all the way through the train to the rear doors to be closer to the lifts.
4. Passenger using a wheelchair alighted at Shadwell with a friend, I had to jump out and tell them that despite there being a lift, there's stairs to get up there. Obviously given wrong information by someone earlier.

Those two fails you had are definitely two too many, and it saddens me that for an infrequent user, you have a 100% fail record. It really isn't like that normally.

As a wheelchair user myself I can say 100% #3 was 100% the passengers fault.

 

[al78]

I once overcarried a wheelchair from Littlehaven to Horsham and being the driver I had no idea ! This after the short lived Passenger Hosts were dispensed with after Thameslink took over some Southern Routes

I guess one small consolation is that the overcarried distance is small, about a mile, so shouldn't take long for the passenger to get back to Littlehaven.

 

[Emmsie]

sadly that is the sort of degradation in the role that everyone predicted when it was switched from conductor to OBS. It was never just about "who opens and closes the doors"

For the record OBS do have the information about which stations have accessible platforms.

 

[O L Leigh]

Is what many operators that have Guards do anyway. Look at the issues people have had with LNER, for example.

I've not heard of many/any issues with, say, London Overground, yet I have heard of numerous issues with LNER.

This really isn't about the operation of the train; I think the OP is barking up the wrong tree with that suggestion.

I'm sorry to say, my old mucker, that I think the OP is pretty much on the money and that your comparator is far too narrow. I may be misinformed, but my impression is that LNER only stop at staffed locations and therefore it is not unreasonable to expect that platform staff take the responsibility for providing assistance.

But then, as you yourself have said, it can happen at any time and at any location, including those where there are no staff to provide assistance. And, in that circumstance, the method of working becomes very pertinent.

I notice that someone up-thread mentioned that DOO does not preclude the presence of a second member of staff who could be tasked with providing assistance where necessary, but there are a lot of locations where DOO means precisely that. Even where the normal method of working stipulates a second person onboard, whether OBS or TI, I'm not sure that it is necessarily the case that a train cannot run without them. In these situations who is there to provide the assistance? There's only going to be the driver.

I don't think that there's any question that the current situation is far from ideal. I completely agree that there should be no barriers to people of whatever level of ability turning up and using the network without having to jump through unnecessarily arduous hoops. But providing that level of accessibility is going to take many years and lots and lots of investment. We'll need rolling stock with built-in ramps that can be operated by the passengers themselves, adequately wide and unobstructed platforms to accommodate them, step-free access at all stations and the ability to request assistance when and where required. If we were building the railway now we could allow for all of these requirements at the design stage, but sadly our network is approaching 200 years old in places and was built in a far less enlightened age where such considerations were not made. I appreciate that to some that may sound like an excuse, but I can assure you all that it is not. We're a very long way from being where we should be, so for the meantime we need people to work with us by advising us of their travel plans so that we can help to make their journeys possible.

If you'll permit me the indulgence as a former DOO driver, I will just say that it was never part of my duties to provide assistance. I was never trained to use a ramp (in fact, our trains never even carried one) and we were never told if we were carrying a passenger who required assistance. If I happened to notice that I had, for example, a wheelchair user or blind passenger onboard and I had the time, I would always ask where they were headed and if they had requested assistance. In the event that they hadn't I would phone Control myself and advise them to see what could be done. I have deliberately over-carried passengers because of platform access issues at certain locations and generally tried to be as helpful as I can, but there are times when no amount of good intention is going to get the job done.

So how does a wheelchair user travel on a DOO service? With great difficulty, by notifying the operator(s) of their travel plans and booking assistance, or not at all. It's not right, but that's where we are.

 

[yorkie]

So how does a wheelchair user travel on a DOO service? With great difficulty, by notifying the operator(s) of their travel plans and booking assistance, or not at all. It's not right, but that's where we are.

Except that isn't actually true in many instances. And where the outcome is true, it's not actually down to the method of operation of the train.

Those difficulties can and do happen on non-DOO services, as documented by the links provided up thread.

 

[Gathursty]

Some stations aren't even accessible to those without mobility issues without getting into platform access or staff assistance.

Ideally we should make everywhere 100% accessible, even Berney Arms, should someone with a mobility issue require their dose of Broadland countryside. The problem is how to do this without breaking the bank and the environment building accessible footbridge and lifts at every station.

 

[O L Leigh]

Except that isn't actually true in many instances. And where the outcome is true, it's not actually down to the method of operation of the train.

Those difficulties can and do happen on non-DOO services, as documented by the links provided up thread.

Except that it is true.

I'm sorry, but if I see a person waiting on an unstaffed platform to board the train then I know it won't be an issue. Why? Because I have a guard to provide the necessary assistance. Where I used to work under DOO, that person would be left behind. That is a direct consequence of the method of working.

Yes there are issues on non-DOO services also which show that not all problems are related to the method of working, but it is undeniable that some are.

 

[yorkie]

Well, it isn't, because the person who provides assistance doesn't have to be a Guard.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this!