How, in practice, does a wheelchair user travel on a DOO service (no second member of staff) from an unstaffed station?

[Tetchytyke]

I really struggle to grasp the mindset of anyone who, knowing they will need help to complete a certain activity because they have a different level of ability than is typical, deliberately sets out on that activity without asking for that help.

It's a tough one. I'm all for an easy life and my disabled friends are the same, so they do book. But not all travel can be pre-booked and it can become a matter of principle when you know the pre-booking "recommendation" effectively becomes mandatory purely for the commercial benefit of a TOC which wants to reduce headcount.

 

[flitwickbeds]

it can become a matter of principle when you know the pre-booking "recommendation" effectively becomes mandatory purely for the commercial benefit of a TOC

But realistically what do you expect? Let's say I'm travelling on (DOO) Thameslink in the afternoon from Harlington (unstaffed at that time of day) to Salfords near Gatwick Airport, again unstaffed at that time of day and, according to NRE, without level access of lifts. An easy journey, no changes of train, all on the same operator.

Assuming I'm in a wheelchair without anyone to assist me, and am totally unable to leave the wheelchair, what changes would need to be made to enable me to make the journey without assistance from anybody, guaranteeing access to any service at any time and to any destination, and mostly without delaying other people?

For me the answer would be automatic ramps on every train operated by the driver (needs to be two carriages, or 4 doors, on every train), all trains the same length or at least able to stop so the wheelchair waiting spot is always the same, and two lifts to every single platform at every single station.

Is that, honestly, realistic?

 

[Mojo]

Even on trains with guards or other on board staff, whenever I have required assistance for family members it has been provided by station staff and not the guard in any case (where both stations are staffed obviously). This was the case when I had a job providing mobility assistance; most of the other local stations didn’t even have platform staff but customers would be helped by staff who would come out of the booking office.

In reality, I would suggest this is what happens, to answer the OP’s question - whilst there are indeed a lot of stations with part time or non-existant staffing hours and served by DOO trains, a significant proportion of journeys will be made between stations at times they are staffed.

For those that are not, then Tocs will arrange alternative transport, whether that be by road/another transport company, or could possibly be travelling a longer route where not all platforms are accessible. If given enough notice then they will deploy staff to either assist at one of the stations or potentially travel with the customer.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Certainly from the stations I use, platform staff utilise the ramp that is stored somewhere on the platform. I presume they have been advised through an advance booking by the passenger concerned. Platform staff usually know where in the train the wheelchair accommodation is (i.e. near the disabled toilet...)

There are no staff at an unmanned station and it is not the responsibility of the driver - therefore, as I understand it, a wheelchair passenger cannot board/alight at an unmanned station

Unless they pre-book assistance.

 

[py_megapixel]

I've travelled extensively on DOO trains and I've hardly seen any wheelchair users on them. Occasionally they travel from one staffed station to another. I expect most people know which stations it is not practical to use.

And why do you think that is?

I find it hard to believe there aren't quite a number of would-be-passengers who give up on the train because DOO has made it unviable.

 

[Bald Rick]

And why do you think that is?

I find it hard to believe there aren't quite a number of would-be-passengers who give up on the train because DOO has made it unviable.

I find it hard to believe that DOO makes a difference to the decision process of any individual with reduced mobility whether they will travel by train or not. There’s so many other factors in the decision process.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But realistically what do you expect

I would expect a second member of staff on the train who could deploy a ramp. An old-fashioned idea, I know!

 

[Fincra5]

I find it hard to believe that DOO makes a difference to the decision process of any individual with reduced mobility whether they will travel by train or not. There’s so many other factors in the decision process.

Oh it does. During the SN Fiasco there was a large drop in the number of disabled/ assistance passengers - People who, rightly so, had always been able to turn up to a station (On the coastways) and the guard would be able to assist them onto the train. The problem was they moved it all over to DOO + On Board Supervisor and it was rushed in (IMO) and therefore there were countless times without any member of staff onboard. Thus the passenger would have to be left behind. So, in my opinion it was a backwards step in accessibility.

However, since it settled down and the OBS role is cemented, there hasn't been many trains without a member of staff to assist passengers; at the many unmanned stations on the network.

 

[DorkingMain]

What about all the other passengers who will then be delayed, some of whom may also be disabled? Or don’t they matter.

A 5 mins delay doesn't matter vs a disabled person injuring themselves trying to get off on their own, or being forced to travel an indefinite distance in the wrong direction, no. What sort of ridiculous argument is this?

 

[Tio Terry]

You may find this link of interest:-

Public transport discrimination guide - Disability Justice

The Equality Act 2010 says that companies that provide public transport services, such as buses, trains, the underground and taxis cannot discriminate against Disabled people and requires them to take steps to make their services accessible for Disabled people.

www.disabilityjustice.org.uk

 

[DorkingMain]

This may be controversial... but I really struggle to grasp the mindset of anyone who, knowing they will need help to complete a certain activity because they have a different level of ability than is typical, deliberately sets out on that activity without asking for that help.

I write this as the father of someone with a disability.

I agree, I would want to do so for my own peace of mind. However there have been many documented occasions where, even pre-booked, assistance has failed to show up. The disability lobby on Twitter documents many of these examples.

 

[OneOffDave]

I agree, I would want to do so for my own peace of mind. However there have been many documented occasions where, even pre-booked, assistance has failed to show up. The disability lobby on Twitter documents many of these examples.

On my first week back commuting as lockdown ended, pre-booked assistance failed to turn up on 8 out my 10 journeys that week. Ended up getting myself off at Waterloo by wheelieing off the train on four of those and having to pull the green handle at FNB on the other four. In my 5 years of daily commuting into London as a wheelchair user, I've found pre-booking makes very little difference as to whether assistance is available

Assuming I'm in a wheelchair without anyone to assist me, and am totally unable to leave the wheelchair, what changes would need to be made to enable me to make the journey without assistance from anybody, guaranteeing access to any service at any time and to any destination, and mostly without delaying other people?

For me the answer would be automatic ramps on every train operated by the driver (needs to be two carriages, or 4 doors, on every train), all trains the same length or at least able to stop so the wheelchair waiting spot is always the same, and two lifts to every single platform at every single station.

Is that, honestly, realistic?

Buses manage powered ramps and don't need to stop in exactly the same spot every time and are dealing with a wide range of kerb heights.

None of the five stations nearest my house have level or lift access to all platforms so I have a 20 minute drive to my nearest accessible station. I have to drive past two of them on the way. If I lived somewhere quiet I could understand but I'm in deepest commuter belt.

 

[DorkingMain]

On my first week back commuting as lockdown ended, pre-booked assistance failed to turn up on 8 out my 10 journeys that week. Ended up getting myself off at Waterloo by wheelieing off the train on four of those and having to pull the green handle at FNB on the other four. In my 5 years of daily commuting into London as a wheelchair user, I've found pre-booking makes very little difference as to whether assistance is available

I was a guard with SWR and I'd have absolutely no problem with a disabled person pulling a Passcom / egress if they needed help off. Unfortunately the platform staff had a habit of loading someone at Waterloo and not telling you they were there, or saying "Don't worry I'll call ahead".

As one of the more scrupulous guards I'd always wander down and chat to find out where they were going in that situation, but I'm aware a lot of people don't.

 

[infobleep]

On my first week back commuting as lockdown ended, pre-booked assistance failed to turn up on 8 out my 10 journeys that week. Ended up getting myself off at Waterloo by wheelieing off the train on four of those and having to pull the green handle at FNB on the other four. In my 5 years of daily commuting into London as a wheelchair user, I've found pre-booking makes very little difference as to whether assistance is available



Buses manage powered ramps and don't need to stop in exactly the same spot every time and are dealing with a wide range of kerb heights.

None of the five stations nearest my house have level or lift access to all platforms so I have a 20 minute drive to my nearest accessible station. I have to drive past two of them on the way. If I lived somewhere quiet I could understand but I'm in deepest commuter belt.

Worth nothing that is on a line whose trains all run with guards. Of course you were at stations with staff.

 

[urbophile]

'requires them to take steps to make their services accessible for Disabled people.'
I thought it was steps that made services inaccessible!

 

[221129]

Worth nothing that is on a line whose trains all run with guards. Of course you were at stations with staff.

Which makes it even worse that this person had to use the passcom to get off the train!

 

[DorkingMain]

Which makes it even worse that this person had to use the passcom to get off the train!

If the guard hasn't boarded them there's a good chance the guard doesn't know they need assistance. The state of communication on the railway is unfortunately still dire in some places.

 

[6Gman]

Many wheelchair users can of course (sometimes/regularly) walk short distances and are (like a relative of mine) used to being accused of faking disability.
Not casting aspersions on your understanding, but I wouldn't like a forum reader to misinterpret your post.

This.

So, lifts/level access at every single one of the 2,500+ stations to/from every platform then? And a backup lift in case the first one is broken down? That's, back of a fag packet calculation, 100,000 new lifts. Including at Teesside Airport, Denton, Buckenham...

40 new lifts per station?

 

[JonathanP]

On the Copenhagen S-Tog system the wheelchair user waits where the first door will be, the driver gets out and operates the fitted ramp, the wheelchair user goes up the ramp, the driver closes things up and returns to the cab. So I am told, the main problem is if the driver forgets where the passenger is getting off.

The same system is used on the Berlin S-Bahn and it works pretty well so far as I can see.

I would love to see the reaction of ASLEF if it was suggested introducing it here

 

[CyrusWuff]

The same system is used on the Berlin S-Bahn and it works pretty well so far as I can see.

The Berlin S-Bahn (and U-Bahn for that matter, where the same applies) has the advantage of level boarding and step-free access at all stations, unlike our mix of platform heights, curvature and horizontal gaps and rolling stock of varying dimensions, alongside stations on viaducts or embankments and in cuttings with access only by stairs.

Even within London, the only fully accessible routes (other than buses) are the Docklands Light Railway, Tramlink, Jubilee Line Extension and Shoreditch High Street - Canonbury (inclusive) on the East London Line.

 

[matt_world2004]

I wish tocs would send their senior management out in wheelchairs over the network. So they can see how hard it can be to navigate . It would refocus priorities certainly.

 

[flitwickbeds]

I would expect a second member of staff on the train who could deploy a ramp. An old-fashioned idea, I know!

That's all well and good if the wheelchair user can actually get to the platforms. That requires a lift from street to every single platform at every single station. If that's not feasible (it isn't) then why not focus staff at bigger stations, the ones with lifts already, who can deploy ramps - and get the passengers there another way. Perhaps by the TOC paying for a taxi. As Thameslink do.

40 new lifts per station?

I said it was back of a fag packet but probably not that far wrong. You can halve it if you remove the requirement to have a backup lift to every platform (as the original point was how to ENSURE wheelchair users can turn up and go - what happens if the lift is broken?). So call it 5,000 new lifts, or an average of 20 per station - taking into account larger stations with lots of platforms which might have to also add lifts to multiple entrances/exits, concourses, connecting platforms, etc.

 

[MotCO]

I do find it difficult to understand why better / more systems that don't require a staff member can't be installed / provided / required, for example:

• Low floor trains like 745/755 that have level boarding
• Trains with one low-floor level boarding door
• Humps on platforms, with a moving ramp if required to allow level boarding
• Built-in ramps at one train door, similar to on a bus, that can be deployed by the driver on request.

Fine, but what happens if the disabled pasenger gets off the train without assistance using one of these methods, and then discovers there is no way of getting off the platforms due to steps etc?

 

[EssexGonzo]

When I was a daily commuter on GA DOO services (15 years +) I'd regularly see wheelchair users and one local who was blind and with his dog commuting in or near the rush hour.

The wheelchair users would be supported by a combination of station staff at both ends - some booked in advance, some not - springing into action with the ramp if they weren't ready. If no member of staff was close, passengers always helped out. No exceptions. Even when faced with a motorised chair, 4 strapping city boys in suits generally solved the problem, except when the user politely declined. Which would normally result in the doors being held open until the ramp turned up. Once or twice the comms point by the door was used to let the driver know what was going on.

The blind chap always arrived at Shenfield to board his train at the same time in the same position. The waiting regulars would part and ensure that he got on the train safely and got a seat (always in short supply here).

Our system and trains will take decades to become completely suitable for every single user and there's no magic wand. And I can only imagine how frightening it must be to be in a helpless position stuck on a train or platform. And maybe I've been lucky enough to see the positive side of human nature in these situations.

It probably cost a few minutes delay on a few occasions which is absolutely irrelevant in the general scheme of things. The passengers in the same carriage who could see what was going on were never bothered. The people who whinge about being 5 minutes late because of someone in a wheelchair (or rather the railway's inability to cope with someone in a wheelchair) are probably the same people who whinge about being late home when there's one under.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's all well and good if the wheelchair user can actually get to the platforms. That requires a lift from street to every single platform at every single station.

I'm not saying every station can or should be accessible, I'm saying every train should have a member of staff on it who can deploy a ramp.

The fact that DOO trains don't have this second member of staff is because of penny pinching by the TOCs.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'm not saying every station can or should be accessible, I'm saying every train should have a member of staff on it who can deploy a ramp.

My understanding is that the 777s for Merseyrail will have ramps that self-deploy to the platform without a member of staff being involved.

Yes, I know - a small railway, where expensive modifications have had to be made to platforms, and we have yet to see whether the ramps on the 777s will work reliably. But at a very least, a pointer that an additional member of staff isn't the only solution.

 

[Bald Rick]

The fact that DOO trains don't have this second member of staff is because of penny pinching by the TOCs.

It isn’t, for two reasons:

1) DOO has been in place well before TOCs were even a thing.
2) DOO does not mean there must not be a second member of staff

And, as @flitwickbeds has pointed out, it doesn’t matter how many members of staff are on the train, if the platform isn’t accessible to / from the street then it’s irrelevant.

 

[flitwickbeds]

I'm not saying every station can or should be accessible, I'm saying every train should have a member of staff on it who can deploy a ramp.

The fact that DOO trains don't have this second member of staff is because of penny pinching by the TOCs.

But what's the point if the wheelchair user can't then actually exit the station? As I said above, better to focus staffing on larger stations where every platform is accessible already, and then have alternate transport waiting to help them get to or from their actual departure and destination stations. That, by necessity, requires booking in advance (unless you are happy to delay your journey). And that, by its nature, precludes people in wheelchairs making turn-up-and-go journeys.

The alternative, and the only thing that genuinely makes turn up and go journeys for everyone possible, is step free access to every platform from every part of the station and to the street, and ramps on trains. You could have 10 members of staff on board every train but unless there are suitable station facilities that person just gets stranded on the station platform anyway.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not saying every station can or should be accessible, I'm saying every train should have a member of staff on it who can deploy a ramp.

The fact that DOO trains don't have this second member of staff is because of penny pinching by the TOCs.

No it isn't.

Many driver only operated trains have a visible second member of staff; several others operate from staffed stations (hardly any average members of the public would say DOO London Overground is not an improvement over the Guarded Silverlink trains).

And which TOCs actually made a decision to go DOO? Don't say GTR as they had no say in it.

 

[OneOffDave]

If the guard hasn't boarded them there's a good chance the guard doesn't know they need assistance. The state of communication on the railway is unfortunately still dire in some places.

On the FNB-Wat journeys the Guard was waylaid by other passengers I found out and the assistance team that had been called by the guard and FNB staff just didn't turn up. WAT-FNB the guard put me on the train as the assistance team weren't working due to the lockdown and the platform staff were just stood around. They forgot me by the time we got to FNB

I've been DOO on the Overground a couple of times. One was great, staff put me on, let my destination know where I was going and the ramp was waiting. The other time staff didn't respond to the call point so passengers heled me on. Arriving at CLJ, the driver helped me off

To be fair to the British travelling public I've found them to be incredibly helpful, especially offering to grab a member of staff. Sometimes they can be a bit too enthusiastic but that can be managed