How, in practice, does a wheelchair user travel on a DOO service (no second member of staff) from an unstaffed station?

[Tetchytyke]

Many driver only operated trains have a visible second member of staff; several others operate from staffed stations

Indeed some do, but not all do. SouthEastern is a staff-free zone, both at stations and on trains.

And which TOCs actually made a decision to go DOO? Don't say GTR as they had no say in it.

GTR had every say in it, including when they did a tender which included it, but it wasn't just their decision.

c2c chose to go DOO.

It isn’t, for two reasons:

1) DOO has been in place well before TOCs were even a thing.
2) DOO does not mean there must not be a second member of staff

And, as @flitwickbeds has pointed out, it doesn’t matter how many members of staff are on the train, if the platform isn’t accessible to / from the street then it’s irrelevant.

@flitwickbeds is arguing about a point I didn't make and seems to be using straw men.

Not all unstaffed stations are inaccessible. And, for that matter, not all staffed stations are accessible. It is also not a direct choice between staffing stations and staffing trains.

I'm well aware that DOO doesn't mandate a second member of staff: that is precisely my point. So many TOCs will not have that second member of staff. They could choose to have them, but they don't, because money.

 

[pompeyfan]

As a guard, I’ve forgotten to disembark wheelchair users and it’s the most gutting and embarrassing situation, thankfully they were only over carried by one station and I arranged for them to return to their destination, I believe it put about 25 minutes into their journey which isn’t acceptable but could have been much worse. The annoying thing is I’d actually marked on my schedule card where they were disembarking, but late running resulted in me ‘blowing and going’... personal lesson learnt. It does happen to the best of us.

 

[Bald Rick]

GTR had every say in it, including when they did a tender which included it, but it wasn't just their decision.

If their bid had not included DOO on the Southern ‘outer’ services, they would have been non compliant to the tender and couldn’t have won. have won. So, really, it wasn’t a decision for GoVia to make. Of course it was also an extension of DOO, as Southern and Thameslink already had it.

 

[Val3ntine]

but late running resulted in me ‘blowing and going’..

*Inserts crude messroom banter*

 

[SussexLad]

The notion that disabled passengers should pre book is nonsense. They can pre book but like every, you don't know what your spur of the moment plans will be.

So if it is unmanned and DOO, we normally drop the train company a DM on twitter and explain so they can organise something. Sometimes that's a few hours before, other times when we leave the house.

Once the train driver stopped the train to get the ramp as he wasn't going to leave us there. If someone forget to get us off I just hold the doors and yell. One time I got a very passive aggresive driver over the tanoy who quickly shut up when one of the other passengers told him

 

[yorkie]

Indeed some do, but not all do. SouthEastern is a staff-free zone, both at stations and on trains..

You might be surprised at how much of the SouthEastern network is actually Guarded. Just because you seldom see them doesn't mean they aren't there

Also the driver only operated High Speed service sees a highly visible staff presence.

GTR had every say in it, including when they did a tender which included it, but it wasn't just their decision.

The only alternative was effectively to not bid for the franchise.

The premise of this thread appears to be to assume that a Guard is required to provide assistance to a wheelchair user, but this is a fallacy.

A Youtube site was mentioned in this thread and yet if you watch the videos, many of the incidents occur on trains with Guards.

I think a more sensible starting point for the thread would be where there are no staff available at all; the suggestion that there is no visible staff presence when using London Overground (DOO trains but staffed stations and an overall more visible staff presence than was the case before DOO was introduced), or any of the many trains that have a second person who is not responsible for the operation of the train, is highly misleading in my opinion.

 

[infobleep]

If the guard hasn't boarded them there's a good chance the guard doesn't know they need assistance. The state of communication on the railway is unfortunately still dire in some places.

Well if the staff board them and then there are staff to disembark them, one might think does a guard need to know?

However, surely in the case of an emergency it might make sense but like you say, it doesn't mean they do know.

No it isn't.

Many driver only operated trains have a visible second member of staff; several others operate from staffed stations (hardly any average members of the public would say DOO London Overground is not an improvement over the Guarded Silverlink trains).

And which TOCs actually made a decision to go DOO? Don't say GTR as they had no say in it.

Balcombe Station is step free via a ramp to platform 1 only and not platform 2. It is only staffed until 2.30pm. Thameslink trains stop there. Not aware of those having an OBS.

I'm not saying your point doesn't stand for many stations but that's an example of step free access without staff for parts of the day.

 

[DorkingMain]

As a guard I would still hope the platform staff told me, because it has implications for all sorts of situations - what if my train is due to run fast for example and I need to make alternative arrangements? What if the train has an issue and they need help? Lack of communication is the root of many ills

 

[philthetube]

On the FNB-Wat journeys the Guard was waylaid by other passengers I found out and the assistance team that had been called by the guard and FNB staff just didn't turn up. WAT-FNB the guard put me on the train as the assistance team weren't working due to the lockdown and the platform staff were just stood around. They forgot me by the time we got to FNB

I've been DOO on the Overground a couple of times. One was great, staff put me on, let my destination know where I was going and the ramp was waiting. The other time staff didn't respond to the call point so passengers heled me on. Arriving at CLJ, the driver helped me off

To be fair to the British travelling public I've found them to be incredibly helpful, especially offering to grab a member of staff. Sometimes they can be a bit too enthusiastic but that can be managed

In a strange way this post displays part of the problem, people not understanding, thinking about other peoples issues. I have absolutely no idea what fnb is, and no allowance is made for me , and others not knowing that in the same way as allowances are not always made for disabled people..

I do find it difficult to understand why better / more systems that don't require a staff member can't be installed / provided / required, for example:

• Low floor trains like 745/755 that have level boarding
• Trains with one low-floor level boarding door
• Humps on platforms, with a moving ramp if required to allow level boarding
• Built-in ramps at one train door, similar to on a bus, that can be deployed by the driver on request.

Equality really shouldn't require pre-booking assistance, waiting for taxis or even needing to call a member of staff. In an ideal world a passenger in a wheelchair should have as similar an experience to anyone else as possible - i.e. turn up, get on train. Clearly this isn't possible everywhere, but one of the above doesn't sound at all impossible where a station has decent access from platform to street.

Level boarding is actually dangerous unless you get rid of curved platforms because of increased numbers who fall through the inevitable gap, which tends not to be noticed by people when there is not step.

Similar problems with your second and third point as on curved platforms it may not be possible have the low floor point away from curves in all platforms.

Excellent idea, would either need big rule changes or made possible to be deployed from the cab, the only issue I see with that would be problems getting passengers out of the way on busy trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Level boarding is actually dangerous unless you get rid of curved platforms because of increased numbers who fall through the inevitable gap, which tends not to be noticed by people when there is not step.

That type of train has an automatic gap bridge.

 

[ABB125]

In a strange way this post displays part of the problem, people not understanding, thinking about other peoples issues. I have absolutely no idea what fnb is, and no allowance is made for me , and others not knowing that in the same way as allowances are not always made for disabled people.

Farnborough I believe

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Interestingly the ORR have been working on this and weighed in with this expectation yesterday...

The 1st Tweet reads:

We’ve introduced new rules to improve the reliability of over a million requests for passenger assistance received each year on Britain’s railways.

This follows a successful trial by @networkrail, Govia Thameslink Railway and @SW_Help.

Read more ➡️ https://t.co/JVC4Zksy7F https://t.co/G0FCRJ3QHM

The First Picture reads:
"Train and Station operators must now have:

• A dedicated assistance telephone number for every station
• A 'Responsible Person' for every station who will ensure calls are answered
• A handover protocol to ensure the essential information needed to co-ordinate the assistance delivery is provided

ORR tweet

2nd Tweet Reads:
These new requirements are the result of extensive ORR research and consultation with industry into the primary causes of passenger assistance failures. https://t.co/SBEpfz9ziA

The 2nd Picture reads: 'The new ORR protocol will go a long in assuring disabled people that their needs are being properly understood and delivered, I am pleased to support this important I dustry initiative' Stephen Brookes MBE (Rail Sector Champion for the Minister For The Disabled People)

 

[SussexLad]

Interestingly the ORR have been working on this and weighed in with this expectation yesterday...

ORR tweet

View attachment 83872

Took them long enough.

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

On the Copenhagen S-Tog system the wheelchair user waits where the first door will be, the driver gets out and operates the fitted ramp, the wheelchair user goes up the ramp, the driver closes things up and returns to the cab. So I am told, the main problem is if the driver forgets where the passenger is getting off.

That's the mostly the same down here on Metro.

https://i.redd.it/lqesh77ip4f21.jpg

Down here the driver has been responsible for loading and unloading wheelchair passengers since SPOT(Single Person Operation of Trains) was introduced in 1993.
Every drivers cab has a ramp in it or in the case of the Siemens and X'trapolis trains a ramp in a box in the saloon next to doors 1 and 4 and doors 1 and 6 respectively.

https://levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0009/444807/HallamRd_Platform.jpg

For the rebuild of Hallam station for Level crossing removal instance there will be two lifts per platform. New/rebuild station design requires two lifts like that. Or a lift and a ramp.

 

[urbophile]

My understanding is that the 777s for Merseyrail will have ramps that self-deploy to the platform without a member of staff being involved.

Yes, I know - a small railway, where expensive modifications have had to be made to platforms, and we have yet to see whether the ramps on the 777s will work reliably. But at a very least, a pointer that an additional member of staff isn't the only solution.

But several stations have no step-free access so wheelchair passengers had better be forewarned. No good getting off the train without hassle if you are then stranded on the platform.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Either obvious signage on platforms/location signage with a wheelchair crossed out or equivalent, or very obvious on board announcements stating this station doesn't have step free access!

 

[infobleep]

Interestingly the ORR have been working on this and weighed in with this expectation yesterday...

ORR tweet

View attachment 83872

To go back to the earlier point someone raised on about not thinking about others, someone who is blind won't be able to read that, as it is an image unless it is all stored as alternative text for the image that is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Either obvious signage on platforms/location signage with a wheelchair crossed out or equivalent, or very obvious on board announcements stating this station doesn't have step free access!

And probably a project to fit some lifts/ramps!

Won't be workable everywhere, I suppose. Aughton Park would be difficult for example, though lifts would probably be possible by having them go directly down from the booking office/road bridge and extending the platforms the other way.

 

[Tio Terry]

The whole idea of The Equalities Act is, well, Equality.

If you offer a turn-up-and-go service to the able bodied, then, to be equal, you have to offer the same service to PRM. Yes, it's difficult, yes, it will cost money and yes, it will take time. But the industry (not just rail, but public transport in general) has already had 20 years to get it's house in order!

The railway industry has some of the best and most imaginative engineers in the world, the things they have achieved with very little at remarkably low cost is legendary. There's no need to put step free access in the "Too Difficult" box, it just needs a change in attitude at all levels within the organisation.

It will be interesting to see what the change from Franchises to Managed Services brings. It will all be in the DfT court in the future!

 

[Bald Rick]

It will be interesting to see what the change from Franchises to Managed Services brings. It will all be in the DfT court in the future!

It has been for the last decade and a half.

 

[py_megapixel]

But the industry (not just rail, but public transport in general) has already had 20 years to get it's house in order!

Precisely.

I think it's pathetic, for instance, that the first Welsh units didn't go for PRM mods until late 2018 or early 2019. The fact that they weren't written into the franchises of the mid 2000s is simply pure penny-pinching by the DfT (or in the case of older franchises the Strategic Rail Authority, in my opinion the kings of inexpicable cost-cutting decisions).

I simply cannot understand why the railway is complacent with just sticking equality for disabled passengers into a pile to deal with at some indeterminate future point in time.

 

[Tio Terry]

It has been for the last decade and a half.

In theory, yes. But they have both tried to hide behind each other, the DfT saying they haven't seen the TOC's plans and the TOC's saying they haven't seen the DfT's money. Not possible in the future.

 

[Starmill]

This may be controversial... but I really struggle to grasp the mindset of anyone who, knowing they will need help to complete a certain activity because they have a different level of ability than is typical, deliberately sets out on that activity without asking for that help.

I write this as the father of someone with a disability.

Surely next to nobody who is disabled actually does that though. It's more about people who need step free access who decide one morning that they want to travel early that afternoon, and that can't be accommodated. Or can't be arranged with ease at that sort of notice, and coming with grumbling about how someone should have booked.

 

[mark-h]

Either obvious signage on platforms/location signage with a wheelchair crossed out or equivalent, or very obvious on board announcements stating this station doesn't have step free access!

This information is needed at the journey planning stage- on arrival it would not be that useful as the best alternative may have been getting off an earlier stop.

Accurate, up to date, information should be easy to obtain both online or by phone. An alert system for getting updates on changes to access would also be useful.

Obviously, where there are late changes to access, such as a lift breaking down, it should be communicated to passengers on board as early as possible so alternative arrangements can be made. This needs to be communicated to all passengers, not just those in wheelchairs.

 

[geoffk]

Certainly from the stations I use, platform staff utilise the ramp that is stored somewhere on the platform. I presume they have been advised through an advance booking by the passenger concerned. Platform staff usually know where in the train the wheelchair accommodation is (i.e. near the disabled toilet...)

There are no staff at an unmanned station and it is not the responsibility of the driver - therefore, as I understand it, a wheelchair passenger cannot board/alight at an unmanned station

I saw the driver put the ramp out at an unstaffed station on the Cork - Cobh line in Ireland!

 

[DorkingMain]

But several stations have no step-free access so wheelchair passengers had better be forewarned. No good getting off the train without hassle if you are then stranded on the platform.

This was part of route knowledge / training for on-board staff wherever I've worked.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I saw the driver put the ramp out at an unstaffed station on the Cork - Cobh line in Ireland!

Perhaps Ireland has different rules and operating procedures than England

I boarded a LO service on my way to work this afternoon. Platform staff were on hand to assist a wheelchair user but had difficulty setting up the ramp at the rear of the train. Driver was getting a bit impatient...

Off-topic but on my way to the station, another wheelchair user tried to board a bus. There seemed to be a technical difficulty getting the ramp down and the doors to open and in the end, the bus departed without said passenger who then had to endure a wait for the next bus

 

[Fincra5]

This was part of route knowledge / training for on-board staff wherever I've worked.

Shame OBS' don't get the same Route Knowledge as Conductors... they should!

 

[paul1609]

Shame OBS' don't get the same Route Knowledge as Conductors... they should!

Pre-covid I used to weekly travel more or less the whole length of the Coastway Route from Appledore to Fratton.
Ive never yet seen a problem with the OBS that didn't exist before with the guards.
More of a problem I would say was the truncating the Marshlink services at Eastbourne and requiring an eastbound change at Hampden Park.
I carry some elderly passengers suitcases over the footbridge every trip. You have to be a very speedy wheelchair user to get across the level crossing before the barriers come down for the Brighton train.

 

[Fincra5]

Pre-covid I used to weekly travel more or less the whole length of the Coastway Route from Appledore to Fratton.
Ive never yet seen a problem with the OBS that didn't exist before with the guards.
More of a problem I would say was the truncating the Marshlink services at Eastbourne and requiring an eastbound change at Hampden Park.
I carry some elderly passengers suitcases over the footbridge every trip. You have to be a very speedy wheelchair user to get across the level crossing before the barriers come down for the Brighton train.

No they've improved a lot. Ofc, some are better than others. I don't help some OBS are sent to places they rarely go...

Yes the connection at Hampden Park isn't the best. Needs a Lift these days really...