How likely will Farringdon become the bottleneck of the London railway network when Elizabeth Line opens?

[stuu]

Are you sure about that? Fast trains take 25 mins PAD-RDG. Slow trains take 46 or 60 minutes. Ten to fifteen minutes to reach the concourse and wait for the fast to depart, and it soon becomes not worth it. And what about all those travellers (slow, infirm, with luggage) who will choose an itinerary based on minimising changes?

If you had just missed a Reading train at Farringdon, catching the next XR train will get you to Paddington in 7 minutes. It's only a few minutes to the concourse, and with fast trains every 5 minutes or so the chances are you will be leaving Paddington within 10 minutes of arriving on the XR platform. Trains are timed at 22-23 minutes to Reading. With brisk walking and good timing it will be perfectly possible to be on the platform at Reading 40 minutes after leaving Farringdon.

Alternatively, wait for the next train to Reading in 29 minutes, and then a 57 minute journey time. Not many will choose to wait I would guess

 

[Nottingham59]

If you had just missed a Reading train at Farringdon, catching the next XR train will get you to Paddington in 7 minutes. It's only a few minutes to the concourse, and with fast trains every 5 minutes or so the chances are you will be leaving Paddington within 10 minutes of arriving on the XR platform. Trains are timed at 22-23 minutes to Reading. With brisk walking and good timing it will be perfectly possible to be on the platform at Reading 40 minutes after leaving Farringdon.

Alternatively, wait for the next train to Reading in 29 minutes, and then a 57 minute journey time. Not many will choose to wait I would guess

Sure. I agree that most people heading to Reading will change again at Paddington, or Old Oak Common. The point I'm trying to make is that they are very likely to go via Farringdon, rather than the Circle line. And there are lots of longer-distance journeys between North/South London to East/West London which will be the same.

 

[stuu]

It depends. From the north it only makes sense if you are already on a Thameslink train. From the south I would guess people will choose Thameslink over an alternative if they are planning to change to Crossrail, but in absolute terms those are probably pretty small numbers.

As Bald Rick has already said, the big change is access to Heathrow. Anywhere served by Thameslink will soon be one simple change from Heathrow, compared to awkward tube journeys across London now. But even that will only be a few thousand people spread over the day

 

[londontransit]

Sure. But we're talking about Farringdon here, so it's national rail all the way. Its not tube. And step free. I think you'll get ten times as many out-of-town interchangers at Farringdon than you would at say Oxford Circus. Whether that becomes a problem only time will tell. Can you book assistance at Farringdon? How well will that work?

'step free?'

Not how you'd think. Farringdon being the best possible exchange as this thread is trying to ascertain isnt that good an interchange in fact.

 

[matt_world2004]

Wouldn't some of the Thameslink flows at farringdon be taken by a crossrail train to abbey wood and Woolwich anyway?

 

[stuu]

'step free?'

Not how you'd think. Farringdon being the best possible exchange as this thread is trying to ascertain isnt that good an interchange in fact.

There's lift access between all platforms at Farringdon?

 

[AM9]

Wouldn't some of the Thameslink flows at farringdon be taken by a crossrail train to abbey wood and Woolwich anyway?

That's one train per hour, generally not really much to affect a far greater flow on Crossrail and a small fraction of the non-Crossrail passenger load of the TL service. Most passengers heading into SE London/Kent would take TL to London Bridge.

 

[hwl]

That's one train per hour, generally not really much to affect a far greater flow on Crossrail and a small fraction of the non-Crossrail passenger load of the TL service. Most passengers heading into SE London/Kent would take TL to London Bridge.

I think @matt_world2004 was including people who would "currently" get an SE Service to London Bridge (/ Charing Cross / Cannon Street) and change there for Thamesllink or tube and then again at Farringdon for Crossrail in the future, which was envisaged in the pre-covid demand modelling. It was anticipated that half the passengers going through Abbey Wood on SE /TL would change to CR.

 

[Nottingham59]

'step free?'

Not how you'd think.

Can you explain please? The current TfL tube map shows Farringdon (Thameslink) as "Step-free from train to street", and Crossrail says the same about the Elizabeth line there. I understand the Circle line at Farringdon is only step-free from street to platform, which is why I would expect all the wheelchair users and mobility scooters to go via Farringdon (to get to OOC and Heathrow, rather than use the Circle line).

 

[Bald Rick]

Sure. I agree that most people heading to Reading will change again at Paddington, or Old Oak Common. The point I'm trying to make is that they are very likely to go via Farringdon, rather than the Circle line. And there are lots of longer-distance journeys between North/South London to East/West London which will be the same.

Thing is, these longer distance flows that might see changing at Farringdon are individually tiny; even collectively it is very little. Cambridge - Reading, for example, doesn’t even register in the data.

 

[Nottingham59]

Cambridge - Reading, for example, doesn’t even register in the data.

I only used that example because EWR seems predicated on the high unmet demand for transport links between Cambridge and the Thames Valley. But that discussion's for another thread .....

 

[londontransit]

Can you explain please? The current TfL tube map shows Farringdon (Thameslink) as "Step-free from train to street", and Crossrail says the same about the Elizabeth line there. I understand the Circle line at Farringdon is only step-free from street to platform, which is why I would expect all the wheelchair users and mobility scooters to go via Farringdon (to get to OOC and Heathrow, rather than use the Circle line).

I've just been to Farringdon station itself to check the situation as I dont think its that good (I also took a fresh set of photographs of the facilities for the sake of it and which I can refer to if anyone challenges me.) That I undertook before I even begin writing any replies.

I also did some scrutiny of the Crossrail planning documents to make sure the facilities are what they are because what TfL says isn't what is actually on the ground. I've written quite a few times on Farringdon but thought it best just to make a visit to make sure my knowledge was still current.

Basically Farringdon only offers direct access for PRM from the southbound Thameslink platforms. Not good for those wanting to come from the east (Shenfield/Abbey Wood branches) and then changing to northbound Thameslink.

The only way to get from the northbound platforms to the Elizabeth Line is to go via the ticket hall. If one can walk and is quite mobile there's of course direct access to the Elizabeth Line via the shiny new concourse with all its fantastic artwork but for others (wheelchair users, mobility restricted etc) there isn't even that.

The other problems, yes there's more, is the level boarding at Farringdon is dire. The ramps (Harrington humps if anyone wants the proper name for these) are sited quite a way north of the actual lifts (these ramps are on both the north and southbound Thameslink platforms) however the rather narrow platforms means one has the task of negotiating these (especially if they're crowded) and that simply to reach the far end of the long Thameslink platforms for the lifts. The gap on other parts of the platforms is considerable which means only the ramped sections can be used and as I pointed out they're quite a way north of the Elizabeth Line interchange.

If one alights from southbound Thameslink, well that's somewhat of a blessing. if they alight from the northbound and in the wrong place well that's going to be a nightmare. Not only that they'll have to go right to the southern end of the platforms and then up to the ticket hall and then down to the Elizabeth Line.

Farringdon might be the best station on the planet as it currently stands, but for some its going to be a major obstacle course.

There's lift access between all platforms at Farringdon?

Only to street level not to the Elizabeth line.

 

[Nottingham59]

The only way to get from the northbound platforms to the Elizabeth Line is to go via the ticket hall.

Thank you. That's very helpful. I've had the experience of taking a 10-year old wheelchair-bound boy on the tube and I can tell you that a lift route via the ticket hall would have been quite acceptable.

(And before anyone asks, he could stand a bit but had to hold onto the escalator rail with one hand, while his mum held his other hand. The abuse we got from people trying to push past was most unpleasant. In the end, I had to stand a few steps behind them, physically blocking both sides of the escalator with the wheelchair so that no-one could get past me.)

 

[londontransit]

Thank you. That's very helpful. I've had the experience of taking a 10-year old wheelchair-bound boy on the tube and I can tell you that a lift route via the ticket hall would have been quite acceptable.

(And before anyone asks, he could stand a bit but had to hold onto the escalator rail with one hand, while his mum held his other hand. The abuse we got from people trying to push past was most unpleasant. In the end, I had to stand a few steps behind them, physically blocking both sides of the escalator with the wheelchair so that no-one could get past me.)

Yes it is helpful I totally agree. Its not what the authorities make out which is available to us disabled people though.

In fact I had the task of today taking two plus one in a wheelchair from Liverpool Street's westbound platform (Circle/Met/H&C) on a Hammersmith train to Moorgate (this was about 14.40pm) and then directing them to the lifts which would take them over to the eastbound platform and back to Liverpool Street where they would have level access to the main line station.

It was either that or them having to physically handle the wheelchair and its occupant up and down four flights of stairs in order to get to the main line station. Liverpool Street only has full access (via ramps & lift) in the eastbound direction.

Because stations have a specific disability symbol many expect there will be full facilities there when they arrive. Often that is not the case and its much the same at Farringdon.

I do know we get abuse for not being able to use the tube/buses/trains like others. I often get short shrift too - in fact I got abuse from rail staff at King's Cross today after my visit to Farringdon.

 

[david1212]

....
Because stations have a specific disability symbol many expect there will be full facilities there when they arrive. Often that is not the case and its much the same at Farringdon.
....

Where the facilities are limited their ought to be a disability symbol that is significantly different to where there are full facilities and details of the limitations readily available together with the recommended alternative even if e.g. continue to x, at x transfer to a train back to y, follow the signed route to the lift then the platform to z.

 

[Bald Rick]

Farringdon might be the best station on the planet as it currently stands, but for some its going to be a major obstacle course.

The thing is, the laws of Physics and Economics intervene. Whilst, obviously, it would be ideal to have fully accessible stations where the distance for the less mobile was the same as everyone, that’s just not deliverable in some cases. In the case of Farringdon, the level access ‘humps’ for Thameslink have to be at the middle of the train. That means if the lifts aren’t in the middle of the platform it is a ‘journey’, but never more than 120 metres. It’s the same at City TL and Blackfriars. But, frankly, the journey is possible, and light years ahead of where we were 30 years ago when those less abled were often found in guards fans or sim0lybunablevto use the railway.

I write as the father of a disabled child, who is very grateful for how much taxpayers’ money is spent in facilities to enable us to get around.

 

[londontransit]

The thing is, the laws of Physics and Economics intervene. Whilst, obviously, it would be ideal to have fully accessible stations where the distance for the less mobile was the same as everyone, that’s just not deliverable in some cases. In the case of Farringdon, the level access ‘humps’ for Thameslink have to be at the middle of the train. That means if the lifts aren’t in the middle of the platform it is a ‘journey’, but never more than 120 metres. It’s the same at City TL and Blackfriars. But, frankly, the journey is possible, and light years ahead of where we were 30 years ago when those less abled were often found in guards fans or sim0lybunablevto use the railway.

I write as the father of a disabled child, who is very grateful for how much taxpayers’ money is spent in facilities to enable us to get around.

I think its (though not 100% certain) more likely that St. Pancras International dictates where the other stations' ramps are to be sited, which is well away from the southern end of the platforms (where the line turns towards King's Cross station piazza) and also on the most level section before the Thameslink tracks rise northwards, The location is practically right next to St. Pancras International station's lifts. Unfortunately it means those at Farringdon are placed in somewhat an awkward location.

I have never said we should go back to guards vans and the rest of it. Some things are not deliverable of course but it doesn't stop people getting angry about it. TfL's been taken to court in the past for incorrect information in regards to accessibility, failing in its duties and the rest of it.

Where the facilities are limited their ought to be a disability symbol that is significantly different to where there are full facilities and details of the limitations readily available together with the recommended alternative even if e.g. continue to x, at x transfer to a train back to y, follow the signed route to the lift then the platform to z.

I agree it needs improvement with details such as what you say. Others too have suggested different ways of denoting the different underground stations for example Transport for All, Level Boarding and Step Free London - as opposed to the somewhat limited symbols & detail used by TfL.

 

[stuu]

I've just been to Farringdon station itself to check the situation as I dont think its that good (I also took a fresh set of photographs of the facilities for the sake of it and which I can refer to if anyone challenges me.) That I undertook before I even begin writing any replies.

I also did some scrutiny of the Crossrail planning documents to make sure the facilities are what they are because what TfL says isn't what is actually on the ground. I've written quite a few times on Farringdon but thought it best just to make a visit to make sure my knowledge was still current.

Basically Farringdon only offers direct access for PRM from the southbound Thameslink platforms. Not good for those wanting to come from the east (Shenfield/Abbey Wood branches) and then changing to northbound Thameslink.

The only way to get from the northbound platforms to the Elizabeth Line is to go via the ticket hall. If one can walk and is quite mobile there's of course direct access to the Elizabeth Line via the shiny new concourse with all its fantastic artwork but for others (wheelchair users, mobility restricted etc) there isn't even that.

The other problems, yes there's more, is the level boarding at Farringdon is dire. The ramps (Harrington humps if anyone wants the proper name for these) are sited quite a way north of the actual lifts (these ramps are on both the north and southbound Thameslink platforms) however the rather narrow platforms means one has the task of negotiating these (especially if they're crowded) and that simply to reach the far end of the long Thameslink platforms for the lifts. The gap on other parts of the platforms is considerable which means only the ramped sections can be used and as I pointed out they're quite a way north of the Elizabeth Line interchange.

If one alights from southbound Thameslink, well that's somewhat of a blessing. if they alight from the northbound and in the wrong place well that's going to be a nightmare. Not only that they'll have to go right to the southern end of the platforms and then up to the ticket hall and then down to the Elizabeth Line.

Farringdon might be the best station on the planet as it currently stands, but for some its going to be a major obstacle course.


Only to street level not to the Elizabeth line.

On the plans there is a lift shaft from the concourse to the southbound TL, which then continues down to the Crossrail platforms. That would have caused a lot of trouble if it were removed, so I would be fairly certain it exists. Switching from Crossrail to northbound Thameslink means crossing the concourse and using the lift back down.

The location of the level boarding section doesn't sound ideal, but the curves and gradients on the platforms are the limiting factor

 

[edwin_m]

The accessible areas on Thameslink have to be at equal distances from the middle of the train, because some journeys cause the formation to be reversed. Having them at each end would meet that requirement, but (a) the staff providing passenger assistance would probably be nearer the middle of the platforms, (b) most stations on the route probably don't have entrances right at one end, and (c) are do they serve any short platforms? All raised platform sections will have to align with the doors that lead to the accessible areas.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think its (though not 100% certain) more likely that St. Pancras International dictates where the other stations' ramps are to be sited, which is well away from the southern end of the platforms (where the line turns towards King's Cross station piazza) and also on the most level section before the Thameslink tracks rise northwards, The location is practically right next to St. Pancras International station's lifts. Unfortunately it means those at Farringdon are placed in somewhat an awkward location.

The level access areas, very necessarily, have to be in the middle of the train.

 

[Hadders]

Given that Thameslink trains serve many stations, with lifts and entrances at various points along the platforms, it makes sense for the level boarding area to be half way along the train so that there is never more than 120m to the left or level exit.

 

[Bald Rick]

Given that Thameslink trains serve many stations, with lifts and entrances at various points along the platforms, it makes sense for the level boarding area to be half way along the train so that there is never more than 120m to the left or level exit.

Not forgetting that they go round the Wimbledon loop, and therefore the trains can be either way round....

 

[Hadders]

Not forgetting that they go round the Wimbledon loop, and therefore the trains can be either way round....

Indeed, and can be either 8 car or 12 car.

 

[londontransit]

On the plans there is a lift shaft from the concourse to the southbound TL, which then continues down to the Crossrail platforms. That would have caused a lot of trouble if it were removed, so I would be fairly certain it exists. Switching from Crossrail to northbound Thameslink means crossing the concourse and using the lift back down.

The location of the level boarding section doesn't sound ideal, but the curves and gradients on the platforms are the limiting factor

Its what I had said earlier. There's two lifts from the ticket hall to the southbound TL platform and then these further down to the EL.

I didn't even say anything like these had been removed (you said 'That would have caused a lot of trouble if it were removed.') Those lifts do indeed exist I took photographs of them earlier today (Saturday) as well as used them too!

The northbound platform only has one lift and that goes from the platform to ticket hall. And yes you are right, to reach the northbound Thameslink from the EL one needs to go up to ticket hall level and then back down via that one lift to the other platform.

 

[pelli]

Because stations have a specific disability symbol many expect there will be full facilities there when they arrive. Often that is not the case and its much the same at Farringdon.

Where the facilities are limited their ought to be a disability symbol that is significantly different to where there are full facilities and details of the limitations readily available together with the recommended alternative even if e.g. continue to x, at x transfer to a train back to y, follow the signed route to the lift then the platform to z.

Out of curiosity, where is this "disability symbol" located? I'm only aware of the "standard tube map", the "step free tube guide map", and the "avoiding stairs tube guide" available from the TfL "wheelchair access & avoiding stairs" page (see attachment), and from what I can tell they all try to avoid overstating the accessibility at any station: On the standard tube map, partial access is simply not shown (so the subsurface lines at Liverpool Street are shown as inaccessible even though the eastbound direction is fully step free), and some interchange stations (e.g. Moorgate) are split into separate blobs for each line so that one line can be shown as accessible when another is not. On the step free and avoiding stairs maps, there is clear red warning text directly on the map wherever only one direction is accessible, and additionally there is an attached index of stations with detailed information.

At Farringdon, the maps show Thameslink as accessible while the subsurface lines are step free from street to platform and then require a manual ramp to board the train. I guess it would be nice if the detailed station information in the step free tube guide map could warn about step free routes being very convoluted, but the best thing for everyone really would be for clear 3D station plans (and text descriptions) to be easily accessible online so people could look up station layouts beforehand, regardless of whether they're looking for a step-free journey, the fastest route through the station including which part of the train to travel in, a step/stair-free journey except that maybe a few escalators/stairs are fine if it cuts out a long detour, a journey avoiding crowded lifts or narrow corridors, a worry-free journey, a journey for someone less able to see/read/understand the signage, etc. (I know Ianvisits has 3D plans and Describe Online have text descriptions, but they're incomplete and not always up to date.)

I couldn't find any instructions about recommended detours where only one direction is accesible, but presumably most of the time you just look further down the line for where there is an accessible station that you can double back at. At Liverpool Street, to arrive westbound you'd double back at Moorgate, while to depart westbound, you'd know to double back at Whitechapel or Tower Hill (although the maps don't tell you that Whitechapel is better as it would just be crossing over the island platform, so again a published set of station plans would be helpful).

 

[Horizon22]

Sure. I agree that most people heading to Reading will change again at Paddington, or Old Oak Common. The point I'm trying to make is that they are very likely to go via Farringdon, rather than the Circle line. And there are lots of longer-distance journeys between North/South London to East/West London which will be the same.

I’m nor really sure what your point is actually then? You originally said can Farringdon deal with large amounts of people waiting for their direct service - which we said was not necessary as in reality they’ll get on the next service and then change.

Yes they’ll go through Farringdon but with trains coming and going every 5 minutes westbound, (and eventually even more tph) nobody is going to be dwelling on the platforms long.

 

[Nottingham59]

I’m nor really sure what your point is actually then? You originally said can Farringdon deal with large amounts of people waiting for their direct service - which we said was not necessary as in reality they’ll get on the next service and then change.

Yes they’ll go through Farringdon but with trains coming and going every 5 minutes westbound, (and eventually even more tph) nobody is going to be dwelling on the platforms long.

Sorry if I've been unclear: possibly my views have evolved in response to the well-informed debate on this forum.

Farringdon is likely to be an extremely popular interchange. My main point is that I think there will be a surprising number of people interchanging there who are not familiar with the rail system and may well have mobility problems: far more that is usually seen at a more typical Tube interchange like say Oxford Circus. Farringdon will be more like a London Rail Terminus than a normal tube station in this respect. I just hope that TfL's passenger flow modelling and customer assistance planning has taken this into account.

My reasoning is that there are a large number of origin-destination pairs in SE England where anyone specifing "Minimum Changes" or "Step Free" into Journey Planners will be given an itinerary via Farringdon. Even if it would be quicker to go via the Circle Line, or get a fast train to Kings Cross, or change again at OOC to head West.

(And when you say "nobody is going to be dwelling on the platforms long", I've known someone who has waited nearly an hour on the platform at Ely for the train to Cambridge, because all the trains before then were destination London. Yes, really. This is going to happen at Farringdon as well, especially on the westbound platform where the signage will say something like "Next trains from this platform: Heathrow, Paddington, Heathrow, Maidenhead, Heathrow, Reading, Heathrow, ..." Let's hope the old dears going to Reading have somewhere to sit down.)

 

[stuu]

Its what I had said earlier. There's two lifts from the ticket hall to the southbound TL platform and then these further down to the EL.

I didn't even say anything like these had been removed (you said 'That would have caused a lot of trouble if it were removed.') Those lifts do indeed exist I took photographs of them earlier today (Saturday) as well as used them too!

The northbound platform only has one lift and that goes from the platform to ticket hall. And yes you are right, to reach the northbound Thameslink from the EL one needs to go up to ticket hall level and then back down via that one lift to the other platform.

You said Farringdon only offers direct PRM access to the southbound Thameslink platform.

 

[londontransit]

You said Farringdon only offers direct PRM access to the southbound Thameslink platform.

Yes in terms of the Elizabeth Line - which is what the subject was about.

 

[dastocks]

I have often thought that given the constraints of Farringdon, a better option in the 1980s (had the planning system been far sighted enough) would have been to build City Thameslink underneath the Smithfield Market (where the sidings are) and close the Thameslink platforms at Farringdon.

I believe that what they did instead was to build in provision at the Ludgate Hill end of City Thameslink for an interchange with the (then) planned extension to the Jubilee line...