How long before all mechanical signalling is replaced on Network Rail

[Ken H]

quite a few sub topics here..
Absolute Block
Semaphore signals
Signal boxes with levers and mechanical interlocking
Points worked by rodding, not point motors.

ground frames dont count!

I walked past Blea Moor box last week, and saw its sprouted colour lights in place of semaphore stop signals - which made me wonder...

 

[The Planner]

25 years as a minimum I would suspect.

 

[DarloRich]

No idea what your sub topic list is all about. As stated above it will be many years before all mechanical signalling is removed from the network

 

[hexagon789]

quite a few sub topics here..
Absolute Block
Semaphore signals
Signal boxes with levers and mechanical interlocking
Points worked by rodding, not point motors.

ground frames dont count!

I walked past Blea Moor box last week, and saw its sprouted colour lights in place of semaphore stop signals - which made me wonder...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! If it's still works what's the point in replacing it before its completely done in.

Though don't Network Rail only actively replace them as part of larger resignations projects such as on the Wherry Lines anyway? In which case it could be a few decades before the last semaphore drops.

 

[High Dyke]

Not in the foreseeable future... Oddly enough I had a conversation this afternoon regarding one location in my area, semaphore signalling, manned level crossing gates etc. The suggested closure was two years ago; that was reassessed to next year (2020), but now the latest closure date is possibly late 2021. Just look at the fiasco in Norfolk to see how little progress is being made.

 

[Highlandspring]

The way I see it the real threat to mechanical boxes isn’t the ‘big bang’ wholescale resignalling projects but little schemes nibbling away here and there. Recent abolitions in Scotland have all been relatively small scale projects which have shut just one or two mechanical boxes at a time. I can only speak for Scotland but it’s certainly easier to obtain funding for that sort of scheme than wholesale resignalling and recontrol; you can spend a million quid shutting a couple of mechanical boxes and save that on the staff costs over five years, meanwhile you’ll be spending ten times that to replace the obsolete IECCs at a large signalling centre less than fifteen years after they were commisioned and save nothing on staffing. Mechanical signalling is definitely on the way out but it’s going through a process of attrition.

 

[TheBigD]

From a purely selfish point of view, not before April 2027! Anything more I regard as a bonus!

The line I work on has had various dates for resignalling, 2020, then 2018, and back to 2020. It currently has no date and there are some life extension works planned for 2023. Some of the existing kit is, to be blunt, knackered. No one expects resignalling to be included in CP7(?) 2024-2029 either.

Unless Network Rail gets a huge cash boost, and a whole load of signalling engineers magically appear, mechanical signalling will be around for a long while. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few locations still operating long after 2050.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't see why they'd bother. They'll only have to replace it all again, forty years down the line.

 

[WestRiding]

The current situation of closing signal boxes is about a long term goal to reduce staffing costs. If it was truely about modernisation, the AB would have gone years ago, and might well have done under Railtrack had it survived. At the moment there seem to be more PSB and/or just TCB in general boxes shutting. Sheffield PSB for example, nothing actually wrong with it, its still the same signalling equipment and relays. Sheffield PSB was 5 Panels, worked by 6 signallers per shift. When it shut, and went to York, it became two workstations needing 3 signallers per shift. Remember, nothing about the signalling system has changed on the ground.

 

[Tio Terry]

Not long after I started on the railway I found myself standing on the down platform at Brundall with the DS&TE looking at the platform starter and made a comment about "suppose these signals will all be replaced with colour lights in about 10 years time", he smiled and said there would still be mechanical signals when I retired.

That's almost 55 years ago now and the signal we were looking at is still there (just, Wherry lines resignalling will see it gone) so I wouldn't think there's any chance of all mechanical signalling going for quite a few years yet!

 

[The Planner]

I don't see why they'd bother. They'll only have to replace it all again, forty years down the line.

Eh? so are you suggesting that we just shouldn't re-signal because we would only have to do it again when it becomes life expired?

 

[Ken H]

Eh? so are you suggesting that we just shouldn't re-signal because we would only have to do it again when it becomes life expired?

mechanical signalling is very long lasting, and is easily fixed and kept going. Parts can be manufactured by any metalworking shop.
Newer signalling doesnt seem to be so easily kept going. Not least because the bits get very difficult to source.

 

[yorksrob]

Eh? so are you suggesting that we just shouldn't re-signal because we would only have to do it again when it becomes life expired?

To be honest, in less busy areas that don't need it, yes.

 

[whhistle]

I don't see why they'd bother. They'll only have to replace it all again, forty years down the line.

May as well not bother washing plates or bowls.
They'll only get dirty again in the future.

 

[TheSel]

May as well not bother washing plates or bowls.
They'll only get dirty again in the future.

Yeah - and you'd have to go and buy more Fairy Liquid. (Other dishwashing products are available).

 

[Tio Terry]

mechanical signalling is very long lasting, and is easily fixed and kept going. Parts can be manufactured by any metalworking shop.
Newer signalling doesnt seem to be so easily kept going. Not least because the bits get very difficult to source.

It's true that electronic systems have a much shorter life because of technical development and that many "equivalent" replacement parts are not actually equivalent which causes problems. But there's also the question of skills. There are not that many people around today who can design a leadaway outside a signal box and precious few locking fitters.

I remember my early years with BR and being placed with the mechanical lineman at Reedham as part of my training. We covered quite a large area but he would walk out of the workshop in the morning, take a look at the sky, then say something like, "stay here today boy" - because he knew that the mechanical rod run was partly in a cutting and that whilst it had been designed for equal temperatures across it's length, in reality the cutting cast a shadow over part of it and that detection would be compromised and need adjusting on hot days.

Mechanical signalling is fine, just so long as you have the people who understand it and can keep it working.

 

[yorksrob]

May as well not bother washing plates or bowls.
They'll only get dirty again in the future.

Yeah - and you'd have to go and buy more Fairy Liquid. (Other dishwashing products are available).

I'm not sure that's an apt comparison because washing bowls is more like maintenance, which you still have to do on a mechanical signalling system. However, the bowl itself can last forever, so long as you maintain it.

I remember reading about the old power-signal box in Leeds which had some stark reliability problems towards the end. Why introduce something with such a limited lifespan on a quieter route that doesn't need it.

 

[DarloRich]

mechanical signalling is very long lasting, and is easily fixed and kept going. Parts can be manufactured by any metalworking shop.
Newer signalling doesnt seem to be so easily kept going. Not least because the bits get very difficult to source.

I assume you have experience of obtaining replacement parts for mechanical signalling

 

[Ken H]

I assume you have experience of obtaining replacement parts for mechanical signalling

Nope

But some mechanical boxes are very very old. I bet the gear in them is like my brush - that has had 5 new heads and 4 new handles.

Is the problem the mechanical bits, or the electrical stuff?

 

[WestRiding]

Nope

But some mechanical boxes are very very old. I bet the gear in them is like my brush - that has had 5 new heads and 4 new handles.

Is the problem the mechanical bits, or the electrical stuff?

The problem will be NR only using selected places to manufacture spare parts, who then charge NR 10 times more than it would to be made in any old work shop. But yes, in principle, it should be easy to get.

 

[duffield]

I remember seeing a document a few years ago that listed all re-signalling plans with projected dates. If I remember correctly, there were a lot of 2050 dates, which was intended to mean 'some time *after* 2050'. So there is (probably) currently no year by which mechanical signalling is even provisionally planned to be gone by.

 

[The Planner]

I love the way people believe the railway should be stuck in aspic circa 1955.

 

[yorksrob]

I love the way people believe the railway should be stuck in aspic circa 1955.

I suppose It depends on the case for change. I'd love to see the network expanded for example. I think new routes serving new places bring a genuine improvements to a lot of people.

But if you have an existing signalling system that works and is easily maintained, and there's no compelling reason to change it, why change. It's all well and good saving the cost of a signalman, but only if the savings aren't wiped out by resignalling every forty years.

 

[MarkyT]

It's always been the case that main line signalling gets renewed much more frequently than that on secondary and branch lines, as often to accommodate significant layout changes as through condition or obsolescence, although signalling on a very busy railway does 'wear out' faster than in a quiet area, and resignalling has always been linked to greater control centralisation. When I started in the Western Region signalling drawing office in the 1980s, older colleagues who had worked on the 1960s and 70s first generation panel box schemes recalled that management of the time confidently predicted that all WR mechanical boxes would be eliminated by the end of the 1970s, or early 80s at the latest. Of course in reality they were returning to resignal parts of the main line again well before the last of the small boxes had gone and that situation hasn't changed much since, although as others have pointed out there's a slow process of small scale attrition on secondary lines where often down to enhancement schemes small boxes occasionally close and control is consolidated into a neighbouring facility, or, increasingly today, straight into a ROC.

 

[The Planner]

I suppose It depends on the case for change. I'd love to see the network expanded for example. I think new routes serving new places bring a genuine improvements to a lot of people.

But if you have an existing signalling system that works and is easily maintained, and there's no compelling reason to change it, why change. It's all well and good saving the cost of a signalman, but only if the savings aren't wiped out by resignalling every forty years.

Those saving aren't wiped out though and mechanical signalling has the habit of being a capacity killer due to absolute block. People cry out for lines such as Round Oak to Bescot to reopen but that will never happen until Worcester and Droitwich are dealt with. The Marches needs doing and has drawn up plans that would unlock things. Shrewsbury will go at some point. The Cumbrian coast would recoup its costs too.

 

[Ken H]

I love the way people believe the railway should be stuck in aspic circa 1955.

The problem is that modern signalling seems to have a finite life. There is a finite capacity in signalling design, installation and investment. So as modern signalling expands, so replacing it will take up more and more of that finite capacity. Old stuff that old Fred can keep going will have to keep going as there will be no resources to replace it.
Mechanical signalling is quite safe, distant signals have been replaced with colour lights, and equipped with AWS. Perhaps a driver on here can say of they have a problem with semaphores.

Settle Jct had 48 trains to deal with yesterday between 0530 and 22:30. I think mechanical signalling is appropriate technology for 3 trains an hour.

Yes it would make sense to extend Yorks control and shut Hellifield and Settle Jct, not least because thats 2 boxes with 2 shifts. But is there the capacity to do this?

 

[yorksrob]

Those saving aren't wiped out though and mechanical signalling has the habit of being a capacity killer due to absolute block. People cry out for lines such as Round Oak to Bescot to reopen but that will never happen until Worcester and Droitwich are dealt with. The Marches needs doing and has drawn up plans that would unlock things. Shrewsbury will go at some point. The Cumbrian coast would recoup its costs too.

A major capacity increase would be a compelling reason for a resignalling, I agree. If the Cumbrian coast does recoup its costs, then fair enough, but if it was that clear, wouldn't it have been done by now ?

 

[Ken H]

A major capacity increase would be a compelling reason for a resignalling, I agree. If the Cumbrian coast does recoup its costs, then fair enough, but if it was that clear, wouldn't it have been done by now ?

Millom. 2 shifts, 45 movements yesterday.

 

[MarkyT]

'Modular Signalling' was a concept RT/NR and the industry came up with a few years ago to produce a cost effective solution for secondary and rural railways. It uses axle counters and the latest lightweight folding signal structures with LED heads, together with standardised off the shelf data structures in the processor based interlocking for standard layouts that can be developed rapidly. Low power and digital techniques, not requiring the typical continuous 650v AC signalling main supply and vast amounts of power and control cabling, can cut costs immensely. Unfortunately ETCS has muddied the waters somewhat because people get hung up on the idea that as it has no actual lineside signals it must be cheaper than colour lights. While on a big London terminal approach a series of small trackside block markers is considerably cheaper than a vast multitrack colour light gantry, the comparison doesn't hold water in simple sparsely signalled layouts where modern all-in-one straight post LED signals are now fairly cheap and quick to install, and have almost zero maintenance requirements. A block marker in ETCS L2 is still associated with an axle counter sensor so the expense of power and data connections to each site is not saved, and the signal saved is more than compensated for by the kind of complete root and branch operating and engineering overhaul costs that a move to full cab signalling requires in an area. Hence it is estimated the Cambrian ETCS pilot scheme cost around three times what the equivalent facilities resignalled with 'modular' would have. The current rural Wherry Lines project reverted from ETCS L2 to a conventional modular colour light scheme due to costs and timescales. Of course Cambrian was a national pilot scheme, so some of the extra development costs would have been unavoidable and should have been specially budgeted for. Repeat schemes based on the same technology should become cheaper as the industry builds on the Cambrian lessons and gears up for its mass rollout. New rolling stock is also being delivered that is already ETCS equipped, or specced ready for such an easy upgrade when necessary in the future. Modern modular schemes such Wherry Lines are also specced to be ETCS-ready, which is intrinsic anyway in all modern signalling due to the use of processor-based interlocking.

 

[DarloRich]

Nope

But some mechanical boxes are very very old. I bet the gear in them is like my brush - that has had 5 new heads and 4 new handles.

Is the problem the mechanical bits, or the electrical stuff?

The problem is that modern signalling seems to have a finite life. There is a finite capacity in signalling design, installation and investment. So as modern signalling expands, so replacing it will take up more and more of that finite capacity. Old stuff that old Fred can keep going will have to keep going as there will be no resources to replace it.
Mechanical signalling is quite safe, distant signals have been replaced with colour lights, and equipped with AWS. Perhaps a driver on here can say of they have a problem with semaphores.

Settle Jct had 48 trains to deal with yesterday between 0530 and 22:30. I think mechanical signalling is appropriate technology for 3 trains an hour.

Yes it would make sense to extend Yorks control and shut Hellifield and Settle Jct, not least because thats 2 boxes with 2 shifts. But is there the capacity to do this?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Mechanical signalling cannot he repaired or maintained by "any old fred" whatever that means. It requires some highly skilled and rapidly aging blokes to keep things going.

It also requires numerous one off pieces of equipment manufacturing at a very high cost and at long lead times. That is if anyone will make the parts at all.

Your views in modern signalling are bunkum. It isn't a finite capacity with modern signalling. It is a rapidly changing technology that leads to change.